Rocky M, NC Politics - Iraqi War (* ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK*)

I came across this article and felt it would spark a good discusion... like those we had years past.

This WAR is for REAL

By: Major General Vernon Chong, USAF-Ret.

To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?

Many will say September 11th, 2001. The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?

In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World?

25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?

Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm).

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.


So with that background, now to the two major questions:
1. Can we lose this war?
2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions. We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question -

What does losing mean?

It would appear tha

 

Then we are doomed. Politicians, the media, and political correctness have dragged this country into the pit. God help us all.

 

That is the sad truth of the matter... hopefully those who do not support the war will come to realize what is at stake before it's too late.

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."

 

Amen, buddy.

 

Sorry maybe its the autism speaking... but doesn't the name "Major Chong" sound like a pornstar to you guys??? sorry i'm done being weird now... or atleast for now...

 

His generalizations are what really bog down his arguments. Not every "enemy combatant is guilty of war crimes." Islamic Military Extremists are the ones who are part of these terrorist groups.

Muslims follow the five pillars of faith:

Shahada:
(Affirmation)
The duty to recite the creed:
"There is nothing worthy of worship save Allah,
and Muhammad is the Messenger of God"
Or
"There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger."

Salat
(Prayer)
It is the duty to worship the one God in prayer five times a day.

Zakat
(Almsgiving)
It is the duty to give 20% of your net worth to the poor each year.

Siyam
(Fasting)
It is the duty to keep the fast during Ramadan.

Hajj
(Pilgrimage)
It is the duty to make pilgrimage once in your life time to Mecca.

Here is something very interesting. The Jihad is not a ?Holy War? it is a struggle. The struggle can be spiritually or militarily. To take part in a Jihad as a mujahid, you must first be spiritually ready. Once you have ended your inner struggles, then you are ready to take part in the struggle against the outside forces.

With that said, terrorist groups are not Muslims. For example, terrorist often kill those that have done nothing worthy of being killed. According to Islam, to kill an innocent means you will face an eternity in Hell. With that said, these people are not Muslims.

The truth of the matter is that you have warlords who are feeling threatened by the loss of their power. So they abuse religious taboos to ensure they can recruit individuals to fight for them. If religion does not ensure their support then they do it by offering money to ?Freedom Fighters.? Please forgive my lack of a better term. If you ask a young Arabic follower of Islam what he wants to be when he grows up, many will not say doctors or lawyers but they will say they want to be a Martyr. That is the mentality that we are dealing with. Terrorists have a lot of money and use religious, political and economical factors in recruiting.

In my personal opinion the best thing for us to do is to remove all American influence from Arabic lands, this means military, business, and other references of Western life. We drop the support of Israel, and give back Palestine to their people. That would give us bad relations with Israel but, I am sorry Israel stole that land from Palestine. In return we force Germany to give land to Poland and create a state for Israel in the ?Heart of Europe.?

This way Israel has a place to call home, Germany is held accountable for what they did. Jewish population in the area of Germany and Poland is restored, we gain influence with Muslim Nations and we prevent the destruction of or World.

It is not rational but neither is the **** that is going on in the world today. At least with this plan, no one is screwed that didn?t deserve to be. Also, at the same time those that are getting shafted will still be getting aid. For example, Germany has so a low work force that they often have to get outside workers to help. SO BOOM there you go, you just held Germany accountable for the Holocaust while at the same time increasing their labor force.

What happened? Cameron happened. Vote for me!

 

The Israelis don't want to live in Germany. They want to live in Israel. And they were there before the Palestinians were.

As for the Jihad, you are right that it was not originally intended to be a "Holy War". It was intended as spiritual struggle. However, over time the concept has become corrupted by the clergy, and now it's considered acceptable among extremist to take any action against "infidels" and those who support them. If they oppose the will of Allah (as interpreted by the extremist) then they are heretics and are deserving of death, so it's not murder. It's performing the will of Allah.

As for saying that terrorist groups are not Muslims is kind of like trying to tell a group of Klansmen that they are not Christians. It's true, but it's not going to change the Klansmen's perception of themselves.

 

Exactly, so what we need to do is find a way to make it so that killing is less appealing than it is now. Any suggestions?

 

"Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved...men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails." - The Prince, Nicolo Machiavelli

You can't fight a war with two different sets of rules. It's not pleasant, but it's true. They call us "The Great Satan". Maybe it's about time we give them a little taste of exactly what that means.

 

I agree. Fight fire with fire.

 

Mordtat my friend you are an idealist... but why should the sins of the father be used to punish the son... that is what you are suggesting with taking land from Germany at this point in time.

I whole heartily agree with Entropy's suggestion. "Let them hate, as long as they fear." As a nation we can win this war but it will not be with treaties or by backing down. The only thing these people have responded to is force... so by God give them reason to fear or hate us but never let them think of us as being weak. In war everyone is held accountable... no one is innocent.

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."

 

Khan was not defeated by force... but defeated by ideals. He conquered China and in return he and his people were assimilated. Ponder on that historical reference for a few.

 

Win this war... I feel we have already lost it. History serves as a good tutor. The warfare we are fighting is that of what happened in Vietnam. No my friends, there is no war, just a morgue of both Americans and Iraqis. We talk about how bad we have suffered in Iraq. My friends its nothing compared to the innocent lives that die there as we speak. Women and children are being killed by their other Arabic people and by our own hands.

There have been 2,179 coalition troop deaths, 1,981 Americans, 98 Britons, 13 Bulgarians, two Danes, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 26 Italians, one Kazakh, one Latvian, 17 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and 18 Ukrainians in the war in Iraq as of October 20, 200. (CNN reference)

Somewhere between 26661 to 30018 Iraqi civilians have died. (Iraqi Body Count reference)

If these numbers are true... then...
Who is really loosing this war?

 

The fall of the Mongol Empire had more to do with in fighting than anything else. I think a fair argument could be made that Kublai's motives for embracing Chinese law and culture was a political decision intended to strengthen his position in China. This would in turn strengthen his position in the Great Khanate, which would also strength his position though out the Empire. In short, he didn't embrace Chinese beliefs and culture because the liked them. He embraced them as a way to manipulate his situation.

 

In that, at least, we agree. Any time you have to resort to violence, you've already lost. But aside from that.... We won the war; it's the occupation that we're loosing. If we continue with our current occupation policy for Iraq we will eventually loose through attrition, just like Vietnam. To paraphrase LBJ, we should not be sending American troops to do a job that Iraqi's should be doing.

 

Why send americans do to a job that Nukes could be doing? or well maybe not nukes but I do really wonder what kind of fishing ground we could gain by turning most if not all of the middle east into a new ocean would provide. I mean think about it... Poverty would decline, Arab on Arab violence would make a SERIOUS plummet. Sounds like a good idea to me... or am I just talking out my a$$ again?

 

:ut of the shadows::

Well put Mordtat

::restealth::

 

Is'nt it something else to talk about other than Politics????
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH..... They are going to do what they want to do & tell you what you want to hear....

 

I'm with Fett here.
Although since I am now military I feel the need to speak out against the war...
But I'll do that later.

 

Speak out AGAINST the war? I hope I misread this, because you DO realize when you join the military, you are going to war if they send you.....

 

That may be so, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with any of these views.
And let's not forget I am NAVY...if they ever smoked that much reefer to send shippies to the front line over Marines and Gunners Mates...then my view on America will solidify.
It is a very confused nation...
The navy has had a little-to-none effect on the War we have going on right now.
I don't see this getting too much worse, either. From what we hear on our weekly brief, our guys over there are pretty much serving as transport and medical backup.

Damn, man. Come on, in essence, do you really expect me to say I enjoy seeing people die?
I don't particularly care for it, although the world seems to think that in order for some kind of resolution to happen, we have to kill people. I DO agree that the ones creating all the Hell should die...do whatever you want to em'.
But in all this, many innocents lose their lives.
And people usually say- "That's War."
I can't really argue against this...*sigh*
I have watched hundreds of videos of the inhumane deaths our men (and women) have unwillingly embraced--way too graphic to explain up here, but it does make me mad that they have to go that far.

 

Agreed shindo, there are no winners in war.

 

Yes there is... the grim reaper...

 

notice:
The grim reaper is a fictional character. Do not attempt to recreat anything you see him do.

 

^ Lol, that is the funniest thing I've read this morning

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."