Saga Poll: Who is the "Jedi" in "Return of the Jedi"?

We are. When did Luke need to be redeemed? Anyway, I thought you and Jawa would like that.

 

Finally! Something to disagree-on with you, 2D!! Vader would have faced the firing squad, I'm afraid. Saving one moisture farmer's nephew is hardly worth a free pass and IIRC, Leia had a really hard time with forgiving Vader. So if the script were flipped, and Vader survived... my money would be on Leia pressing the legal action. Public opinion would also swing quickly in her favor, and the trial would take on a life of its own...

 

He'd probably kill himself out of guilt for his crimes.

 

Gonna play Sith's advocate here, and pretend I am a Republic defense attorney...(These arguments are going to be ridiculous, but, something a defense attorney might argue, they in NO way reflect my opinions whatsoever)

That one moisture farmer's nephew blew up the first Death Star. I would (in my role as defense attorney) argue that it is because Vader was secretly helping to support the Rebellion that this was allowed to happen. He was a Sith Lord. There is no way he would have been surprised by Han Solo, clearly, Vader allowed Solo to blast him out of the way, because Vader couldn't just disengage from the battle himself, the Emperor would have known. Vader needed an excuse. He let Solo shoot at him, so he could pretend his TIE was much more damaged than it was. Shields or not, we saw what only a few starfighter level lasers can do to a fully shielded X-Wing, and the Falcon certainly has stronger lasers than those on the X-Wing. I would argue that Vader allowed Solo to remove him from the trench so he could have an excuse to bring to Palpatine.

Why would Vader do that? I would point out that Vader didn't blow up Alderaan, Tarkin did. It was completely Tarkin's idea, not Vader's. Perhaps Vader saw just how evil the Empire was at that moment, and decided to try to subvert it from the inside, acting as an unannounced double agent. As the Emperor's right hand man, Vader would clearly be in position to do this. He routinely executed highly trained Imperial officers, causing inexperienced ones to take their place before they were ready. That would systematically weaken the abilities of the Imperial Navy.

He tried to convince the Emperor that the Rebels were massing near Sullust...isn't it possible he was trying to draw the Imperial Star Destroyers away from Endor, weakening the Death Star II's defenses? His plan was simple...he takes the fleet to Sullust, as the Rebels are on their way to Endor. That way, the Rebels have a clean shot, and the Imperial fleet is too far away to do anything.

In fact, given that Darth Vader is the second most powerful man in the entire galaxy, the fact that the Rebels, against immeasurable odds had so much success evading him, that it had to be deliberate. Vader could in no way be that incompetent. Instead, he was a master strategist, working against his master behind the scenes. Taking small steps to be sure, but doing so to avoid detection, until the time was right to strike.

When wa

 

Great post !!

I guess your entire argument boils down to whether or not, Public Opinion favors the Jedi.
25 years prior, the galaxy at large was fed up with them... perhaps Sidious' rule was enough to send them running the other way... but I'm not so certain. The masses could be tired of both sides of this religion putting them in the middle. Tarkin's POV in Star Wars could've been public sentiment...

 

Some of the public probably thought the Jedi were jerks.

The two bar room scenes seem to show the Jedi in a bad light with Joe Public.

"Go back to your drinks ...", slicing arms off, etc.


They were the law and order of the galaxy, and I think like Watto alludes to in AOTC, the Jedi are kinda powerful and something to be anxious of by citizens - especially low lifes and boozehounds.

I would not be surprised if the galaxy in general was sick of the 'goofballs' in the Ivory Tower. But the Imps were probably just as hated if not more.

 

Agreed, BigBoy.

So is the consensus that "Jedi" means "the order as a whole"?
Or is it Luke?

 

It's Anakin

 

As much as people want to ignore or get away from these two points by JKH, they clearly demonstrate what the title of the movie means - Luke is back, he's a Jedi, and he's gonna save the day.

And why does Vader tell Luke, that he saved him?

Look - we can go in a big circle arguing who saved who.

But the title of the movie is about Luke.

SSS - this was my chime in back on page 2 - I gave up arguing, but the recent discussion on this thread has been interesting.

 

PLOTHOLE!!

Edit:
WAIT!!
By the clouds of Bespin, you were just agreeing with BigBoy ahead of time.
Or, after the fact.

 

Funny thing is, I was actually gonna man this thread's battlestations - and fight for sanity and the American Way.

Like SSS manning the "Should Maul Have Died" thread - against every Johnny Come Lately or wiseguy who wants to take potshots at Maul, and/or laud the mighty cinematic achievements of Gen. Greivous and Dracula, etc.

This one seemed a no-brainer, especially to the old-timers who grew up on it.


Anyways - I would like to make one last point about Vader's Nuremberg Trial. The public knew these guys were weird, the Jedi ... they were not allowed to have sex, act like priests, be perfect with their "holier than thou" attitudes.

I think the public would have had no sympathy for an ex-Jedi who used to be supposedly "Mr. Clean" the Jedi enforcer - who "we're all supposed to look up to and respect" like the damn Royal Mounties or something.

(There was a reason why in the early 90's the WWF picked as a villian - a Royal Mounted Policeman - THE MOUNTIE.)
Most people hate authority figures that are infallible and "too clean".

Vader's Jedi status and a buck 29 would've have got him a cup of coffee at Dex's. Not much else.

EDIT:

College kids here wear the "DON'T TAZE ME, BRO!" t-shirt.
College kids in GFFA wear the "DON'T MIND TRICK ME, BRO!" t-shirt.

 

I hear you. Though it is weird looking back in hindsight, I mean I've defended a character that personifies evil. In the interest of good story telling, of course...

And now I see that you are basically doing the same.
Nice to see another knucklehead.

 

I think Luke would disagee.

 

Is that actually in the film?

Holy complete lack of originality, Batman!

 

Before the prequal trilogy came out in 99, i believed it was Luke who was the Jedi.
I had seen 4, then 5 then 6. I grew up on those movies, considering i wasn't born until 1991 i had no chance of seeing them in the original release to theaters. But i went and saw all three in 97 in order.

However now that I've seen episodes 1-3, it seems to me that Anakin is the Jedi.
Because it never really shows LUke going on Jedi missions like anakin and obi wan do in the beginning of episode 3.

The reason i now think its anakin, is luke is the one who helps redeem him from the dark side, which can also be known as RETURNING to the force and bringing balance like the original prophecy (sp) stated in episode 1 when qui gon found anakin on tatooine.

 

I think it will be somewhere in the middle now.
On one hand, Luke declared himself a Jedi. The first in 20 years...
And then Anakin returned when it was assumed he was forever lost.


One bird, two meanings.

 

I agree on the "two meanings" element, but as I've said before in this thread, I still think the two are a)Anakin (the Jedi within him returns right before he saves Luke by killing Palpatine), and secondarily, b)the Jedi in general (meaning the plural, general concept... whether you want to call that the Jedi Order or not). Luke enables both of those to happen, but he himself was not a Jedi before, so no "return" goes on there... he becomes a Jedi during ROTJ.

 

I consider Luke Skywalker a Jedi in ESB.

* The classic Hoth scene of force grabbing the saber in the snow.
* Jedi boot camp with Master Yoda.
* Dueling Darth Vader in a lightsaber battle.
* Using the Force to "reach out" to Leia with ESP.

Folks did not know about the Jedi Order, the term "Padawan", etc.
Luke was a new Jedi with a mission to save the day and kill/redeem Vader.

He struck out Round 1 in ESB.
He returns Round 2 stronger, faster, better, with a cool green saber to boot.

It's not titled RETURN OF LUKE SKYWALKER because the emphasis is on Luke learning the trade, evolving, and saving the day in the Jedi way. The Sith/Jedi sidestory needed to be resolved with the Force, sabers, lightning, etc.

Luke uses Jedi mastery to save the gang from the Ewok BBQ, rescue the gang from Jabba, and administer a beatdown on Darth Vader that rocks his dad to the core, and finally Luke is done strutting his stuff, he gambles on his dad doing the right thing, and Luke wins that bet too.

 

Maybe at the end of the movie. But not before facing Vader. When he stepped away and rejected the dARK sIDE, I'm there with you... but landing one kick to the chest and one glancing blow to the shoulder in all the duel... not a Jedi yet. Like Vader said.

 

(As pointed out above) Vader to Luke in TESB: "The Force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet."

Yoda and Luke in ROTJ:
Luke: "Then I am a Jedi?
Yoda: "Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be."

 

Well bros ..

I don't like to put too much stock into what Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin say.
The PT basically makes Yoda look out of touch - at best. Anakin a crybaby and basketcase - at best.

Kenobi the liar and deceiver was fleshed out in the OT.

SSS- I would think that you would be the last dude who bought into the "conventions" and nomenclature of the powers that be.

Duel of the Fates showed that Kenobi was all Jedi - forget the padawan/Knight/Master nomenclature. Both he and Jinn lost fair and square, but Jedi they were - both of them.

You draw sabers with a Sith Lord - and hang for more than 3 seconds - that's Jedi material in my book.

 

I just figured it out - it's YODA!

1. First half of movie
2. Yoda dies
3. Second half of movie
4. Yoda returns as a ghost
END

 

You know JKH ...

I got sucked right back into this damn thread ...

My man SSS and some others keep pulling me in!


Yoda probably is the perfect answer - Lucas in 14 years will make the deathbed confession (It was Master Yoda) to Entertainment Tonight and finally this movie title will be understood.

Yoda redeemed himself and "returned" as a spirit Jedi and the Force was balanced and Luke facilitated it and Anakin was the reason and the Whills were justified because the Sith were eliminated by the Jedi and Yoda was the master who taught Luke, and let Anakin go down the path and then he died but he was one with the Force and he and Qui-Gon knew there was hope and through the Force were able to solve everything.

 

Sorry Brother. I'm just goin of my POV from '83. Luke got his backside kicked and it wasn't pretty or close. He only hung in there because he was Luke karking Skywalker, not because of some crammed Jedi lessons. My approach isn't conventional, its the illustration of just how cool the bloodline is. The reveal explained how Luke was able to stand toe to toe with Vader. No other Force user in the galaxy would have survived the same set of circumstances... and that's due to bloodline, moreso than Jedi. At least for me. I'll defend the Jedi returning, but not Luke being uber due to Yoda. I'm still mad at the little green dude for sipping tea with Palpatine and not knowing squat for twenty years.

Couldn't agree more.

 

It really doesn't matter whether Luke becomes a Jedi in ROTJ, ESB, or 13 years before ANH. He still doesn't "return" to being a Jedi

Unless it refers to Luke going back to Tatooine