Saga Poll: Who is the "Jedi" in "Return of the Jedi"?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by grimlockbedi, Dec 30, 2009.

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  1. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    That's it, right there. Anakin killed Palpatine out of compassion for Luke, not out of contempt for the Sith.
    That is the lesson that this scene teaches us: Love is the answer to the darkness (which I think would have been nice to hear from Qui-Gon in ROTS, as was originally planned).





    Love is powerful
    /LM
  2. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    But the novel also describes Luke's decision as defeating the darkside, not just Palpatine. Luke would have been within his rights to kill Palpatine, but at what cost? The potential consequence of Luke killing Palpatine was that Luke would've turned to the darkside, which would have made everything worse.
  3. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Well, while I understand that scenario, I don't believe in the "Light Switch" theory that Luke would have automatically become evil, but it still would have gone against his principles. Keep in mind that Luke did succumb to the Dark Side, which allowed him to defeat Vader. What surprised both Palpatine and especially Vader was that Luke was able to pull himself back to the Light Side - something that everyone, Vader included, believed impossible. Luke demonstrated to Vader what needed to be done.

    I think the worst scenario would have been Luke killing Palpatine (provided Palps didn't have a Plan C up his sleeve), and then having to face Vader, who would not have had the opportunity to see the error of his ways and turn back to the ways of the Jedi. Imagine what would have on between them at THAT point.

    Then again, going by the PT, only Vader had "the power" to kill Palpatine (whatever that means), so either Luke was somehow incapable of doing so or it was never his destiny. One could go mad exploring all the possible outcomes based on those guidelines.
  4. DarthNidLoc Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2005
    star 3
    I think it means both the return of the order(as personified in Luke) and the return of Anakin from the darkside. It really does not have to mean one or the other. Sure in Lord of the Rings the Return of the King refers specifically to Aragorn because King is in the singular tense, the plural of King is Kings, the plural of Jedi is Jedi not Jedis so therefore it could men either intrepretation or both.
  5. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Yes, and this is an interesting point, because it actually makes Anakin look more heroic than Luke. Luke would have most likely failed against Palpatine directly (especially if the prophecy of the Chosen One is taken into consideration). He succeeded because he moved his father to action, and if he hadn't been successful he would have died and Palpatine would have lived. But only the action Luke took (defeating Vader, then refusing to fight anymore), then his dire situation at the hand of Palpatine, had the capacity to make Anakin return. So Luke was successful. But to kind-of quote Tarkin... "you're taking an awful risk, Luke... this had better work." :p
  6. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    How does that make Anakin look more heroic than Luke?

    Luke's choices:
    -"I can take on the Emperor in which case either: I'll die and he and Vader will continue to reign, or he'll die and I'll become a Sith and Vader and I will reign. No matter who wins there will still be a pair of Sith Lords dominating the galaxy."
    -"I can refuse to fight the Emperor in which case either: I'll die and he and Vader will continue to reign, or my father will return to the good side to save me and there will be no more Sith."

    Anakin's choices:
    -"I can sit here and watch the Emperor kill my son"
    -"I can stop the Emperor from killing my son"
    -"I can sit here and watch the Emperor work on killing my son for a little bit, THEN stop the Emperor from killing my son"

    And the PT retroactively makes Vader's actions LESS heroic, since he is clearly acting based on his familial attachment to Luke and not any great concern for the good of the galaxy. I've no doubt that he would have killed Palps to save Luke even if Luke had already turned - then he could have had the father-son reign he wanted in TESB.
  7. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    You skipped one of Luke's choices....keep stalling for time, and die along with Palpatine and Vader. Luke's quest on the death star had zip to do with Lando and Wedge's mission to blow up the death star.

    All Luke had to do was keep Palpatine distracted for a little while, and while he would still die, the rebellion still wins.
  8. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I guess the "look more heroic" statement was not totally clear, but it was intended to expand on MeBeJedi's "so, while Luke chose to die as a hero, his choice, on the face of it, had the potential consequence of Palpatine surviving. Anakin's choice to die a hero had the potential consequence of Palpatine being defeated." I didn't think that Anakin actually was more heroic, hence "look"... just that the situation ironically had the potential to go differently. Luke's actions could have let Palpatine and Vader both live, while he himself died. Nobody would benefit from those actions in that case. But he didn't have a choice, as you and I both point out, so he had to do what he did... and his gamble paid off and benefitted others too, because it did prompt Anakin to return and kill Palpatine.
  9. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Where do you get the idea that Luke expected his father to turn back and kill Palpatine? Even Luke wasn't intending to kill Palpatine outright.

    Granted, Luke did call out for help during his electrocution, but that was hardly part of the plan.
  10. halibut Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
  11. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    There is no oficial answer for this, right?
  12. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    ^ Right, there's no official answer... but since this is starting up again, here's my standard answer... :p

  13. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Luke was a Jedi prior to RotJ, but it is during RotJ that he becomes a Jedi KNIGHT.
  14. Anakin_Skywalker20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2000
    star 5
    Anakin and Luke :) Father and son.
  15. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Vader to Luke in TESB: "The Force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet."

    Yoda and Luke in ROTJ:
    Luke: "Then I am a Jedi?"
    Yoda: "Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be."

    There is no indication in the films that either Vader or Yoda are incorrect or lying when they make these statements.
  16. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Come on now, I think it's pretty clear from all sources that they are referring to full-fledged KNIGHT status. Otherwise you'll have to apply your logic to Kenobi and Anakin in TPM and AotC respectively and tell me how they aren't Jedi during those movies.

    All three are Jedi, albiet PADAWANS/apprentices and not KNIGHTS. They all dress like Jedi, use the weapon of a Jedi, and are trained as Jedi. The only thing missing is the trials and title of knight. So yes, they (including Luke) are most certainly Jedi.
  17. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Also consider

    Yoda to Luke in ROTJ:
    Yoda: "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."

    There is no indication in the films that Yoda is incorrect or lying when he made that statement. ;)

  18. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah ROTJ kinda contradicts itself, as you've highlighted. In one scene Yoda tells Luke he's not a Jedi and later describes him as "the last of the Jedi". But I would excuse that last line - the implication is on Luke being the last of the potential Jedi. Its clear Luke is not yet considered a proper Jedi from everything else that is said in that movie and ESB (with the exception of himself saying "I'm Luke Skywalker - Jedi Knight and friend of Captain Solo" to Jabba, where he's basically exaggerating the truth to make himself sound more of a threat).

    I think the difference with Obi-Wan in TPM and Anakin in AOTC describing themselves as Jedi (only the opening crawl refers to Obi-Wan as "Jedi Knight", which is a convenient mistake for the sake of being concise) is that they are, at that point, part of a thriving order. While they're not yet fully fledged Jedi, it is only a matter of time before they reach that status - the way it is phrased is a product of their future status being assumed. With Luke, such assumptions cannot be made, because he faces a very real threat and he has yet to prove himself to be up to the standard seen in the previous order. When Obi-Wan and Anakin are referred to as Jedi in the earlier films, the implication is essentially on them being Jedi in waiting. When Luke says "then I am a Jedi" to Yoda in ROTJ, he is clearly implying he believes he has proven himself to be at the level required to be considered a fully fledged Knight, when that is not the case.

    To sum up, I think we have to take from the films that Obi-Wan only becomes a Jedi proper at the end of TPM, while Anakin achieves it between AOTC & ROTS if memory serves me correct. Luke only becomes a Jedi at the end of ROTJ.
  19. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    That is when they become Knights and thus fully Jedi - but they are all Jedi prior to that as Jedi Padawans.

    When Vader and Yoda refer to Luke not being a Jedi, they are referring to him not being a Jedi Knight. When Yoda says Luke is the last of the Jedi, he is referring to Luke's status/training/dedication/ideals as a Jedi - not his level/title or potential to become a KNIGHT.

    It's all in the context.

  20. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    We're really just splitting hairs. I would say the Padawans are only ever classed as Jedi loosely and by way of them being part of the order as Jedi in waiting. If I'm taking lessons to become an airline pilot, I cant call myself one until I'm fully qualified, however inevitable I think it might be. By definition, Jedi refers to Jedi Knight or Jedi Master. Jedi Padawan is merely someone training to become a Jedi. A Jedi Padawan can obviously be considered part of the Jedi Order (why Yoda says to Luke "the last of the Jedi will you be") but being part of the order does not actually mean you can be definitively considered a Jedi.
  21. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    It is splitting hairs but it is important to Luke's status as a jedi at the beginning of RotJ.

    The Jedi are structurally similar to military?monastic orders from history. These orders had levels which included novices, knights, masters, and grand masters. Let's look at the ever popular Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon. Novices of the order were considered just as much Templars as the knight or grand master, but they weren't considered Knight Templars. They didn't have the level/title/authority/prestige - or whatever else you want to call it.

    One way to put it is that being part of the order means you can be considered a jedi but not a Jedi (i.e. Jedi Knight).
  22. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    There is of course one pertinent quote that has (I think) been missed thus far:

    "Oh Anakin's not a Jedi yet. He's still a Padawan learner"

    We might have to agree to disagree, but I'm still going with the theory that while a Padawan is officially one within the Jedi Order, they are not yet Jedi themselves. So Yoda's line to Luke - "the last of the Jedi will you be" is still able work its way out of contradicting his prior assessment (and Vader's too) that Luke is not yet a Jedi.
  23. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    We can agree to disagree, but Padawans, Knights, Masters, and Grand Masters are all Jedi. The the context of the usage of the term Jedi indicates whether one is talking in general or specifically about level/title.

    The entire quote makes it clear they are talking about titles/level:

    Padme's remark was in response to Bibble addressing Anakin as a Jedi Master. She was correcting him to let him know that Anakin wasn't a Jedi Master but was a Jedi Padawan. To call someone a Padawan Learner indicates that the person is a Jedi.

    He's still a Jedi, the context of the usage of the term Jedi indicates whether they are talking in general or specifically about level. That's why Yoda saying Luke isn't a Jedi (referring to knight status) but is the last of the Jedi (referring to membership of the order) isn't contradictory. At the start of RotJ, Luke is a Jedi. He is not a Jedi Knight.

    If you ever played D&D or AD&D, you can view Jedi Knighthood as name level. A character is still considered a paladin before name level, but at name level he is considered a Paladin.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But he's not returning to that status, he's attaining it for the first time.
  25. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I believe it refers to all three. I don't know when I first saw RotJ probably about '90. I believe it refers to Skywalker Sr because his son's love redeemed him, I believe it refers to Luke because he returns to Yoda to focus on his training, and I believe it refers to the Order due to Luke's commission to pass on what he's learned.
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