Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by grimlockbedi, Dec 30, 2009.
I never said that he was returning to that status, so not quite sure what the "bingo" is about.
While we're at it, the title is Return of the Jedi, not Return to the Jedi.
Anakin wasn't a Jedi when he became good again, so he isn't the Jedi referenced (the order is). Not to mention that just because Anakin became good again DOES NOT mean he became or returned to the status of Jedi Knight.
It seems very clearly implied in the SE version of RotJ, T-R.
What is shown and implied is that Anakin is a force ghost via help from Yoda and Kenobi, a trick based on a power discovered by a Shaman of the Whills. So, being a Jedi isn't required to perform the trick.
I can see it now:
Anakin: I know I betrayed and eradicated the Jedi Order, joined the Sith, killed children, enslaved a galaxy, and caused the death of my wife....but I am sorry.
Kenobi: It's ok Anakin, in the last 10 minutes of your life you saved your son and killed a Sith.
Yoda: A Jedi Knight you are.
Anakin wasn't a Jedi when he fullfilled the prophecy and he wasn't a Jedi when he died.
To each their own perception.
I always assumed that the it meant the Jedi in general to the galaxy because they were gone for so long. It's not that complicated.
Then why does she say "Anakin's not a Jedi yet" instead of "Anakin's not a Jedi Master yet"? The wording she uses is very clear. She believes Anakin has yet to become a Jedi. Even later she says to him "you're training to become a Jedi". The way you're presenting it, anyone who joins the Jedi order, from whatever age, is immediately a Jedi. I don't think that carries much credibility.
But they were never gone. At the beginning of the film there is one Jedi Master and at the end there is one Jedi Knight. The order doesn't return so much as it does survive.
Of course he "wasn't a Jedi when he became good again". That's why it's a return, or a redemption, etc. It doesn't make sense for him to be required to have been a Jedi the whole time before returning to Jedi status.
Actually, it does. We're not talking status in the sense of official membership listed in some Temple databank, we're talking relationship to the Force.
It doesn't really depend on which version of ROTJ you're watching. It should be equally true for both.
Was looking over the redesigned SW.com and came across a quote that I think very heavily implicates Anakin as being the Jedi who "returns" in ROTJ:
Near death, Luke begged Vader to help him. His pleas awakened something in Vader, who picked up Sidious and hurled him into the Death Star's reactor shaft. Luke's love had brought about the return of Anakin Skywalker, who had finally fulfilled his destiny by bringing balance to the Force.(emphasis mine)
It's here (slide 29):
Yes, Word of God has been pretty clear that it's Anakin who "Return"s. But I believe the dialogue in this thread is about what the films themselves present, independent of creator commentary.
Oddly enough, I think the Blu-Ray version of the Saga makes the strongest case yet for Anakin NOT being the Jedi. Vader's new "NO"s give the scene an even more explicit emotionality, heightening the already strong parallels between picking up the Emperor and chopping off Mace's arm. He's throwing away the life he's built over the last two decades and betraying his master in an attempt to save an imperiled family member to whom he is emotionally attached.
The PT spells out pretty clearly how un-"Jedi" a move it is when he makes it in RotS, so it stands to reason that it would be equally un-"Jedi" in RotJ just because his angst was pointed in the right direction this time. Unless it's an "ends justify the means" sort of thing, but that would rather undermine the whole "Luke can't kill in anger or else he'll go dark" thing.
If Lucas really wanted to change that part of ROTJ so badly, there was a better way. Someone made a Youtube video a number of years ago where Vader's "flashing back" to events in the PT including the electrocution of Mace. No new dialogue, in fact no change in the audio at all.
You're forgetting the dialogue after that scene where it's clear that Anakin has learned his life lesson, and the spectral ghost of Anakin.
Interesting...as the originator of this thread, I did not know that was laid down so explicitly somewhere by GL...my intentions were to discuss one's definition of "Jedi" in relation to chronological relationship to the two trilogies (i.e. saw the OT in theaters, saw the OT after the PT, etc) without knowing that GL had spelled it out somewhere...is that something he said in the commentaries, or in an interview somewhere (and my apologies for having missed it if it appears in this thread somewhere, or if it is just common knowledge in the fan community that GL has stated "Jedi" means "Anakin" )
While I see the point you're making, I don't think the two situations are 100% analogous. In ROTS, Anakin killed a good person to save an evil person who could potentially help him save another good person...in ROTJ, he killed an evil person who was in the act of killing a good person.
My only thought is that before the SW.com redisign, the Opening Crawl in 1983 said:
Still say it is for the Jedi Order (in the person of Luke) returning to protect the galaxy.
I'm not aware of any place where GL states the title refers to Anakin.
We also know from the Annotated Screenplays that Return of the Jedi was Lucas preferred title even BEFORE Anakin was redeemed. This was his title when his story had Anakin die by falling in lava leaving Luke to fight the Emperor alone.
While the use of the word return in the crawl doesn't really sway me on it one way or the other, I must say that I find this:
...very interesting! That does seem to point completely away from Anakin as the "Jedi" who is returning...I have to go take a look at my AS. Could be a big piece of evidence right there T-R-
But he returned as a 'Force Ghost' which is something that only a highly trained Jedi can accomplish....Anakin is returning from the Dark side, he is the Jedi in question.
Plus he's wearing Jedi robes when he Force ghosts. Standing alongside the two pre-eminent Jedi Knights of the Old Republic.
Right, Jedi Knights of the OLD REPUBLIC that are looking on in approval ofthe NEW and last Jedi Knight. The 1st Jedi Knight in over 20 years to act as a guardian of peace and justice.
Once again, the title was Return of the Jedi on script drafts where Vader fell in lava and died. No redemption for Anakin. That came in later drafts. The title can't apply to something that wasn't even in the drafts to begin with.
A telling statement by Lucas is his discussion of Revenge vs. Return. He says he went back to Return because a Jedi doesn't seek Revenge. He's talking about Jedi (as in group).
The title refers to the Jedi Order returning to the galaxy in the form of Luke.
The initial rough draft was actually titled 'Revenge of the Jedi'. To my knowledge, that was the title on all the script drafts, although 'Return' was floating around as an idea. Exactly which was first, preferred, or "intended all along" isn't very clear, as there's several official accounts which contradict each other.
There was also redemption for Anakin/Vader in the rough draft, it just wasn't strongly emphasised. Vader basically crash-tackles the Emperor into the lava, sacrificing himself in the process - Luke says to Obi-Wan, "He turned back to the good side, didn't he?", to which Obi-Wan replies, "Yes, he did." Hardly as powerful as what we eventually were delivered, but it was there.
I completely agree with this, don't really understand why so many insist that it must only refer to Anakin or Luke. Both are important parts of this 'return', and the redemption of Anakin, along with Luke's final maturation into a full-fledged Jedi Knight, serve to symbolise it, but it's still about the return of a force for good to the galaxy.
Not wanting to be argumentative (honest haha) but I don't really follow the 'rough draft' theory on this because George Lucas has stated many, many times that the current SW saga is essentially the story of one man, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, so going by that it would only seem logical that the Jedi he was referring to in the title of his movie was him.
A link to him saying this is even on theforce.net.
You don't need to post the link, believe me.
The Man Responsible For Everything says a lot of things, and they don't always match up with other things he's said. It's a topic for another thread - many threads - but in a nutshell, his statements about the SW Saga always having been envisioned as 'The Tragedy of Darth Vader', the rise & fall of Anakin Skywalker, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, are just spin, and simply aren't backed up by what he said in the past, or the myriad of other evidence, be it early drafts or personal quotes.
What we now refer to as the 'Star Wars Saga' was originally 'The Adventures of Luke Skywalker'. Then it was a nine-episode 'trilogy of trilogies', covering three separate, though connected, eras set in the GFFA. Then it was the six-episode 'Tragedy of Darth Vader'.
Now the fabled Episodes VII-IX are happening - supposedly based on storylines GL came up with - despite over a decade of GL's flat-out denials that it ever existed or was even intended to happen.
Take a look through the document I posted in this stickied thread - http://boards.theforce.net/threads/notes-quotes-on-the-changing-star-wars-saga-1975-2012.50008758/ - and you'll see just how fluid & unstable the SW Saga has always been.
I know he has a habit of changing tact every once in a while but surely that's because the SW universe is constantly evolving....so it shouldn't really matter what he has said in the past but only what he says now? (Mainly because it helps my argument haha)