JCC Pope watch MMXIII

Once they allow married priests, which they once did (only got rid of for inheritance reasons), we'll begin to see a change as the married priests eventually rise to become Bishops and Cardinals. And I really do think Married Priests is inevitable and coming relatively soon.

As a result of being in married partnership with women, the Church will eventually see it's fine to have female priests.

Also, with priests actually being allowed to have sex, as well as having female priests, they'll eventually begin to see that many church doctrines on sexuality don't really make sense.

Then I think they'll then ditch the "open to life" thing, and then suddenly all those things we find ridiculous to be considered sins will no longer be sins. Ex: masturbation, nonvaginal sex, gay sex (inside marriage), etc.



If all that happens in my lifetime...
and if they loosen up the hierarchy and make it feel more like universal brotherhood/sisterhood...
(which would inevitably happen if they reunite with the Orthodox and some Protestant churches. Plus it's something John Paul and Benedict have already begun, and really sounded like Francis definitely will continue with too)
...then I'll agree with them on 99%, and might as well officially become Catholic. I already agree with them on accepting Science, on believing non-Christians go to heaven, and on harmony with and good in the other religions as well as secular philosophies.



It all starts with the Married Priests. And even conservative Catholics think it's inevitable and coming soon.



EDIT: here's a better pic



Btw, did anyone else think they saw Cardinals snapping photos of the crowd on their cell phones, from the other balconies?

 

The Church doesn't support same sex marriage either, but again, the Church over al lisn't as virulently homophobic as some of the more fundamentalist Protestant denomenations.

 

I don't think that they'll ditch that, but I would hope that the Church would be able to bend at least a little bit, and allow blessed unions for same sex couples even if it can't go all the way to allowing same sex couples to actually receive the sacrament of marriage. I could be wrong, but I think that Pope Francis might be willing consider something like that. I heard a story on about him on CNN today that talked about how he had once scolded a number of priests who refused to baptize the children of single parents. That suggests that he understands that how the ordinary person interprets their faith and how the Catholic faith is understood in the Vatican are sometimes two very different things.

 

I don't think Pope Francis would bless same-sex couples, it's a very different situation. There he was basically saying "don't blame the child."


I don't expect that final outcome to happen with 50 years, to be clear, or even likely within 100 years. I just think that married priests will happen within this generation, then following that will come women priests, and then following that a re-evaluation of their "all sex must be open to life" stance. Maybe it will all happen within our lifetimes, but I'm not betting on that. Just thinking where it will go long-term. As the Catholic Church seems to think too (long-term, that is, probably not this outcome though).

 

Why do you think the Catholic Church will follow the same path as secular society?

If it does that, it will be ceding its moral authority to secular society. And without moral authority what would be the point of the Church?

 

What do all of these changes have in common? The sex issue. That's the only one I think they're really off on (and I'm not too big of a fan of the hierachial structure, but they're already trying to change that, and Francis did it really profoundly from the start by asking for the people to bless him). They have moral and spiritual guidance to offer in almost everything else of that nature.

And like I said, even the conservative Catholic leadership is realizing it's time to allow priests to get married. I'm not expecting it to happen too quickly, there needs to be more of a build-up first, but it will come back.

The Church has admitted it was wrong before.

 

I'm fairly certain it's ceding its moral authority already.

 

Very doubtful. We Ruthenians in the US have a hard enough time ordaining married men without Rome breathing down our neck, and it's our ancient tradition. Two weekends ago I spent the weekend at the Byzantine Catholic seminary in Pittsburgh - three of the seminarians (one a friend of mine) are married. Their status is still kinda up in the air although they'll probably end up ordained.

For Roman Catholics, I don't see an end to the discipline of priestly celibacy in sight (although I do know two married Roman priests from my old Roman parish).

 

It seems to me that it's the people in the middle that are the problem. Many of those at the very top recognize the problem, and so does most of those at the base. I don't think it's in sight, but I do think it's right around the corner. Within 20, maybe 30, years?

 

I'm not one for making predictions (and I never will be), but I think it's likely that church attendance will fall in Europe, North America and Australia/NZ and the conservative power base of the Catholic church will shift to Africa, South America, and Asia. I think there would be a schism if the Pope sanctioned gay marriage.

In terms of timespan before Catholicism catches up with the current moral Zeitgeist, I don't know. Ask me after the singularity.

 

If it happened right now, yeah. It probably won't happen until a 70%+ majority of people of all ages support gay marriage, but I think it could eventually happen. The theological groundwork needs to slowly be laid down over the decades first, though, like I described above. The Catholic Church always lags behind in changing because it doesn't makes decisions by majority, it makes decisions by supermajority. It's worked well for 2000 years for them.

Latin America is actually already getting falling rates, the Catholic Church is losing a lot of ground there, the Evangelicals are starting to take over down south. And it's been falling in Europe/USA/Canada for decades. It's only growing in Africa and parts of Asia, I believe. Latin America does have 40% of all Catholics, though, which is very significant.

 

The falling popularity of Catholicism has very little to do with their stance on gay marriage. Gays aren't central to the religion.

Not showing up to church because of gay marriage would be like not going to a baseball game because you don't like the peanuts.

I don't think they've ever admitted they were wrong on moral issues.

Religions create values. They don't adopt values. That is to say, once they begin adopting values, they are just cynically trying to survive and will lose all credibility.

 

> Not showing up to church because of gay marriage would be like not going to a baseball game because you don't like the peanuts.

This is the Dan Quayle of analogies.

 

There won't be. There will still be ordered priests, who will still be required to swear an oath of celibacy upon their ordination, but yeah I think that a married diocisan priesthood is coming fairly soon, like within the next 25 years.

 

I disagree. Many Catholics I know (myself included) left the church for just that reason. It's created division in the community. I don't want to marry & raise a family in a community where I keep hearing, again and again, that my lesbian friends and coworkers aren't fit to be married and raise a family. I can't. For an organization that purports to have a monopoly on traditional Christian values, their insistence on excluding those who are different or dissent creates an environment where ultimately, every member of the community could feel outcast. It just depends at what point one decides to cut their losses and find a more reasonable community--one that actually embodies the values they claim to have "created."

 

He'll be celebrating his first Mass as Pope at 4PM UK time (noon ET). It will be with the Cardinals in the Sistine Chapel.

 

People leave the Church because they value their politics more than their religion, because they value the world's opinion more than God's opinion, because they value man's ways more than God's ways.

To put it simply, people leave the Church because they lack faith.

 

Not sure how wide spread that sentiment is. Certainly in major cities, but in more rural areas I would doubt it's a major factor. The really big ones, imo, are birth control and divorce. The sex abuse scandals have also played a major role recently, but I think that#s more a momentary thing (assuming the Church stops it). Things like married or women priests are issues that many in the Church support (ie allowing them), but I doubt many actually leave the Church over it.

If there's one change I expect to see significant movement on in this papacy, it's divorce. Not so much because of the pope himself, but because of changing sentiment in the Church hierarchy.

 

Can't argue with any of that. Belief in the supernatural is a poor substitute for striving to make the world better.

 

wannasee - before I jump in and disagree with you, could you confirm that you are making these arguments?

 

I'd disagree with that being a blanket statement. I think some people leave the church because they lack or lose their faith - others leave the church because they find that the Catholic interpretation of God no longer matches up with their personal interpretation of God.

Or, maybe, they leave the church because they lack faith in the Catholic religion. Not that they lack faith in general or entirely.

 

well yeah, i meant that they lack faith in the Catholic religion, but it seems like a stupid truism to say that people leave their religion because they don't believe in their religion.

that's why i left that part out... lol

Disagree away.

 

That's certainly the main reason Catholics have a South American pope: western Europe has left the religion en masse, because Europeans no longer believe in any of it. The Church has to do more outreach to the poor, ignorant, and third world-ish, because that's all they have left.

Rich is the religion with plenty of poor. That's how you know Scientology is the one true religion: it preys on the rich.

 

THERE'S ALWAYS MONEY IN THE VATICAN