Saga Popular support for the Empire

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darklordoftech, Oct 7, 2012.

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  1. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    The Rebels are "fighting to restore freedom to the galaxy" in the movie opening crawls- implying that the Empire has taken away freedom.
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  2. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What kind of freedom (s) did the empire take away? For instance, all the people on Luke's home planet Tattoine seemed kind of happy and there was nothing opressive going on. What kind of "freedoms" did the Empire take away? And how does that relate to the Death Star or the Sith empire before the prequels (the oppression of the Sith will never return, and the sith will rule the galaxy again, 1000 years ago the sith were last around). It wasn't just the death star.

    Mace windu, padme, and obi wan, and the jedi had no idea of the death star in Episode 3, yet they still didn't want Palpatine/the Sith to rule the galaxy. Why are the Sith oppressors?
  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    In the novelization of A New Hope, we have Biggs saying that the Empire is nationalizing everything- taking away people's control of their business- and that eventually even on Tatooine people will be "slaving away for the Empire".

    There's been several Sith Empires- all of which have been pretty brutal, slavery, severe punishments, etc.

    As to why the Sith did this sort of thing- possibly because it empowers them. A terrified, angry hateful populace supply a great deal of "The Dark Side".
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  4. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Oct 18, 2012
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    People are slaving away for the empire? What does that mean? How does the empire taking away from their buisnesses have anything to do with vader's redemption in the end? Or the dramatic ROTJ duel? Doesn't sound epic at all.

    The Sith empires in the EU, which expanded upon the film's mention of the sith once ruling the galaxy, had slavery, severe punishments, and were "brutal". What do you mean by that? Give some examples.
  5. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 16, 2010
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    Ya know, a lot of people were happy under Hitler, Mao and Robespierre. A lot more weren't.
    The Sith are evil. Do you think evil is a desirable thing or something? Bad. We don't wan't bad.
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  6. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Oct 18, 2012
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    The comparison is different. All those people were responsible for the deaths and suffering of millions of people and were very morally sick and evil. And real life. Real life evil vs fictional evil are totally different comparisons.

    My question is not whether or not the empire/sith/vader/palps did bad things. That is not the debate.
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 25, 2012
  7. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    Doing evil things is oppressive. So is getting rid of democracy. Palpatine is fictional but he is the Hitler of the Star Wars universe.
    Last edited by WIERD_GREEN_MAN, Oct 25, 2012
  8. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How would alderaan and the death star affect the quadrillions of imperial citizens? Other than alderaan, which the rebels probably provoked them, almost all of the imperial citizens lived normal lives. Palpatine is nothing like real life dictators, who are truly evil. How can the rebels be justified if they provoked the empire into destroying alderaan and building the death star to defeat them? The empire only used it on one planet, they had no plans of using it on a large scale, other than to fight the rebels in the war. The galactic civil war cost billions of lives.
  9. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Those fighting to free themselves from oppression surely deserved annilihation for daring to fight for freedom. How dare they!
  10. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Oct 18, 2012
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    I'm not saying the rebels deserved anything. Or the empire. I'm taking a non biased view on both sides.
  11. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    You're presupposing a world based solely on push-pull, action-reaction. You can't divorce people's actions from their emotions and morals. You are correct - if folks rolled over and didn't resist a conquering government, maybe that new government would not institute reprisals. Does that mean only the strong prevail because to counter is to invite retaliation?

    When al-Quida directed 911, were we wrong to counter and pursue those responsible, because by "fighting back" we gave them reason to again attack us in retaliation for our retaliation for their initial actions? We could have withdrawn into our borders (isolationist) or waved the white flag. Were the Allies right to fight for their countries when Hitler invaded? I'm sure there would have been less death in those countries had the countries simply surrendered to the invaders.
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  12. Anakin Starkiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 1999
    star 1
    What about the right to be secure in one's possessions, life, and liberty? We see Stormtroopers conducting random, intrusive searches in the streets of Mos Eisley. They kill, without any due process anyone they suspect to be connected to a couple of droids on the mere suspicion that the droids are in possession of government documents. The population on Tattooine were not happy, they were scared. You can see it in the street scene when the troopers are marching to Docking Bay 94, the citizens jumping out of their way are frightened by the Imperial presence.

    The Emperor disbands the Imperial Senate, removing even the pretense of representation in the Government.

    In a cut scene Biggs tells Luke that the Empire is nationalizing commerce removing the freedom of individuals to work for their own profit.

    And thats just the stuff we see. What about all the stuff we don't see? A two hour movie can't go into every detail of every evil just have to show that they are evil in a few specific cases, from which we can derive a general rule.


    If we just go by film dialog at a point 1,000 years distant the Sith were the rulers, and it was bad. We know from other media, The Jedi triumphed over the the Brotherhood of Darkness on Ruusan and the Republic was reformed under the Ruusan Reformation. It was a pivotal turning point for the Republic and they knew peace for 1,000 years with no galactic war until the Battle of Geonosis. The position of the Sith was held in cultural memory because they were so evil, people knew about the Sith because of the adage of those who do not know their history, are doomed to repeat it. It would be as if today a neo-Nazi managed to get elected to high office keeping his ideology hidden until he was in a position to make sweeping changes and establish a fourth reich.
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  13. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I agree with many of the things you the said. A 2-3 hr movie doesn't have the time to go into details about "who did this" "where did that happen", and stuff like that. However, if the rebels didn't provoke the empire, the stormtroopers on mos eisley and tattoine wouldn't have searched people and Owen and beru would still be alive. What if the rebel alliance was never created? That wouldn't have happened. It seems that the reason the empire is evil is because the good guys say they're evil and they do evil things in retaliation. The empire still did evil things, but that doesn't justify or explain the rebel's quest of defeating them, because had they never rebelled, that wouldn't have happened. The rebels were part of the problem.

    They disbanded the imperial senate and didn't let people have businesses, the government controlled everything. However, darth vader and the emperor, their evilness, was not focused on businesses or voting, very political things. It seemed far more harsher, deeper, and more epic/dramatic than that.

    How could the sith have ruled the galaxy 1000 years ago if palpatine said it was the first galactic empire? Implying there were no others before it.

    You made a very interesting point about the Sith ruling the galaxy 1000 years ago. They were evil rulers, and the jedi defeated them. But where did they go? How did they keep apprentices in secret for 1000 years, planning to get revenge against the jedi and take over again? How exactly was the 1000 yr ago sith empire evil? Did they have the death star? If not, what made them dictators, tyrants, and oppressive? Palpatine and vader probably did many of the same things that the millenia before prequels sith empire did, too. Even before the death star, presuming it never existed until palpatine, they were known for oppression. Mace windu said their oppression wouldn't return. Yet, he had no idea of the death star, so there were other things that the Sith emperors of the past did that were evil to the citizens of the galaxy. What exactly did they do?
  14. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I would say the Empire provoked the Rebels...but following YOUR reasoning, standing up to wrong should not be done because that only provokes the offender into retaliating. It is much safer to keep your mouth shut and turn the other cheek. Long live the tyranny of the strong.

    I don't know much about that historic period, but the Sith rule 1000 yrs ago probably was not on a Galactic level, hence Sids calling HIS empire the First Galactic Empire.

    It's not hard to hide 2 people in a galaxy full of life. Your question seems - well, pointless, unless it's a case of your misphrasing the actual question or my lack of comprehension.

    There was no death star before ANH.

    What makes someone a dictator and a tyrant? DICTATING what others can or cannot do, TYRANNIZING others. That seems pretty self-explanatory. Does that mean that simply labelling someone that makes it true? No; it's not the label, it's the actions.

    So to see if I understand this round of questions:

    Sids plotted a war against the Republic he was supposed to protect and guide. He threw out the legal government and replaced it with himself as the Emperor. There would now have been (forced) peace, but those pesky folks who wanted democracy back decided to fight back. Because they fought back, the Empire was correct in retaliating because if the Rebels had merely accepted things there would have been no fighting.

    Does that sum up your thoughts? If not, try again.
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  15. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How are you sure that there was no death star before ANH? The empire was evil in the OT because of the death star, and they were ruled by the sith, so wouldn't that imply that the sith 1000 years ago had the death star? How do you know they didn't?

    How much of the empire did the sith rule 1000 yrs ago? Good observation.

    I meant was, did the sith just hide for 1000 years and wait to strike back against jedi, in a conttinous cycle of the rule of two? How did they get apprentices?

    Are you saying that palps and vader were evil just because they changed the system of governement? That doesn't justify a galactic civil war that lost billions of lives.It doesn't sound epic either.
  16. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    How do you know they did have a death star?
    They baby-snatched potentials.
    They were bad for changing the government illegally. They were evil for orchestrating a war to accomplish that, for genocide against the Republic's peacekeepers...
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  17. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
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    d
    I know they had a death star because that's why the empire was evil in the OT. They were ruled by Sith Lords with death stars. The death star is what made the empire. They happened to be ruled by a sith. The sith ruled the galaxy 1000 yrs ago. They had an opressive empire, as stated by mace windu. It's obvious they had a death star 1000 yrs before sith empire.

    I don't think the emperor was evil because he got rid of the old form of government. That makes vader's redemption sound all political and not epic or dramatic or mythic or heroic at all.

    If it wasn't just the death star that made the sith/empire evil, does that mean that the galactic civil war which cost trillions of galactic lives was justified because it restored a different form of government? That would make them a group of political fanatics.
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 26, 2012
  18. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    e

    The empire was not evil just because they created a new form of government. Did they create the death star because of the rebels, or would it have existed without them? Without the rebels, would alderaan still exist? Out of the many quadrillions of imperial citizens, how many planets would the empire use the death star on? For what reasons?

    Also, didn't tarkin mean that keeping the star systems in line was keeping the rebels in line?
  19. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    1. Correct.
    2. No, they were designing it in AoTC - did you catch that in the movie?
    3. Who knows - why would they build it if they didn't intend to use it
    4. Who knows
    5. Partially. The Empire was not fond of the Senate, either, and supposedly planetary governments, so they wanted to stifle any and all potential opposition.
  20. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Correct to what? What do you mean by the first correct?

    I knew they were designing it in AOTC. And it was in construction during ROTS, and at the end of ROTS.

    What do you mean by the 2 who knows? What question are you answering?

    If the death star was built because palpatine saw visions of the rebels through the force, then you just proved my point. Had the rebels never existed, the death star wouldn't exist. Palpatine could see the future through the force. In ROTJ he mentioned that he foresaw the rebels losing, implying he had clarivoyance and would know what would happen.

    The galaxy and empire had quadrillions of citizens. How does one planet, Alderaan, impact the entire galaxy? It's proportionally small. Was the empire going to destroy other planets after alderaan? Why would one planet matter? If it was a one time occurence, the empire wasn't a threat anymore. They only needed it once as a demonstration. Why didn't they use it on other planets, then? Just one? Why not more, like entire star systems, in ROTJ?

    Would the empire have destroyed other planets with the death star if the rebels never existed in the first place? If that answer to that is Yes, then the empire is undoubltey not only evil but the rebels were justified and good by forming the alliance in the deleted ROTS scene, and the galactic civil war was worth saving the lives of innocent imperial citizens from a paranoid government. If the answer is No, then the empire is stil evil, but the rebels are in no way heroic and provoked the empire to do evil. Both sides would be wrong in that situation.

    What do you mean by planetary government? How was that oppressive/tyrannical?
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 26, 2012
  21. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    1. The empire was not evil just because they created a new form of government.

    2. Did they create the death star because of the rebels, or would it have existed without them?

    3. Without the rebels, would alderaan still exist?

    4. Out of the many quadrillions of imperial citizens, how many planets would the empire use the death star on?

    5. For what reasons?

    I answered your questions. As to #2, IF the Sith foresaw the future, then one might say the Sith built the Death Star to protect the SIth Empire from the Rebels. If the Sith could NOT foresee the future, they built it long before there were any Rebels to use it against. Your conclusion is based on something without evidence (that the Sith foresaw the future).
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Oct 26, 2012
  22. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    1. You proved my point. The empire was evil because they created a new form of government. We agree on that.

    Also, the issue is, if the rebels raged a just war or not, that cost many galactic lives, not whether or not Palpatine and Vader did evil things. The question is, are the good guys really good and is their quest to defeat the bad guys truly heroic or misguided? One person being evil doesn't make the other side good, vice versa.

    If the Emperor created the death star in retaliation to the rebels, built it to use against them, which you admitted (the star systems mentioned by Tarkin was a reference to them rebelling, you claimed), then their evil deeds were done in retaliation from a threat-the rebels. Two wrongs don't make a right. It's still evil if the Sith Empire does bad things in retaliation. However, that's not the issue. If the empire/vader/emperor would have built the death star with no knowledge of the rebels and built it for the innocent civilians (rebels are wartime enemies), then they would be not only evil but the rebel's quest to defeat them was a just war, because no matter what, they would still do evil things.

    Another thing. The sith forseeing the future and building the death star to use protect the Sith empire from the rebels. Palpatine said he foresaw the rebels losing the war. Meaning he could forsee the future, and probably foresaw the rebel's very existence before they existed, as early as AOTC.
  23. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    You are far simplifying something. By your standards, the bullys of the world who walk all over everyone should be allowed to do so, because if one dares to stand up to them, they might not be the "good guys" because they were misguided and stood up to the bully. So the first to do wrong is right, and the ones who try to right the wrongs automatically become the bad guys, or the bad guys as well.

    I don't buy that and I never will. I do agree there can be good and there can be bad on both sides of an issue.

    You're forgetting the evil Empire did the evil deeds first. One mght argue, minus any issues of morality, that by resisting evil, the other side only invites more evil, and you'd be correct most likely. But we do live in a society that is not divorced from morals and it is immoral to simply accept evil because to oppose it invites retaliation.

    Nope. Just no. Foresight is not 100% accurate. There is NO EVIDENCE he foresaw the Rebels, although a smart man WOULD expect resistance.
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  24. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Palpatine was only a bully because the rebels wanted to restore the old form of government and they provoked him. The rebels provoked them. Rebels=bullies. Empire=even worse bullies. Evil vs evil. Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I know ur gonna say he came to power through unjust means-starting the clone wars and wiping out the Jedi. Well, a lot of countries today came to power and are where they are today because of things that many people would consider unjust. But the past is done and over with.

    Did Palpatine create the death star in AOTC because he had a vision of the rebels, OR guessed they would exist and created it to crush rebellion?
  25. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I'm not going to debate with you anymore since you don't really wish to discuss any of the points I've tried to make. It's far more nuanced and you if want to believe it's unjust to respond to bullies, keep believing that.
    As for your other questions: WE DO NOT KNOW the answer to a LOT of your questions. There ARE no answers, or if they are, you can seek them ourself in the EU.
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