Amph "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc" : The West Wing Discussion Thread

The only downside I take to Sam departing the show when he did, was that we didn't get nearly enough Sam and Will together moments. I don't know that we would have seen the writers know quite what to do with him had he stayed on for the full run, so I'm glad he left. But the little bit we get between Sam and Will is fantastic. And I'm left craving more.

 

No one suffered more after Sorkin from poor characterization than Toby though...

 

Hey, I know I'm saying this late, but actually I have been rewatching along with it for well over a year now. It's the first time I've watched it week-to-week and it's weird but fun hearing what they have to say. It's the only show I "keep up with" in that way.

Also how do those brackets include Bram but not Margaret?

 

Jesus Christ, the Wells years are so much harder to get through.

I watched the first four seasons of The West Wing in like two months. The rest of the series nearly took me two years.

Anyhow, I thought I'd pick my favorite episodes (nothing too original here)

1. 20 Hours in America *controversial, I know
2. Two Cathedrals
3. In the Shadow of Two Gunmen
4. Posse Comitatus
5. 17 People
6. Let Bartlet be Bartlet
7. Bartlet for America
8. In Excelsis Deo
9. Game On
10. Twenty Five

I also really love Commencement, Celestial Navigation, Tomorrow, Shutdown, 2162 Votes, The Debate, What Kind of Day Has it Been, The Supremes, Six Votes Down, Six Meetings Before Lunch, and Noel.

Who is everyone's favorite character?

 

What's wrong with liking "20 Hours In America"? It's amazing...

I'd rank a few others higher, but it's almost certainly in my top-10?

 

Haha it's only controversial because many people would look at you silly for saying your favorite episode isn't Two Cathedrals. The American Heroes speech paired with I Don't Like Mondays really got me.

Also, I so adore Donna.

 

For some reason, Celestial Navigation always gets up there in my favorites.

 

Picking a favorite WW episode is as tough as a favorite Pixar movie. Ditto for favorite character. And, for character, it kinda depends on which season.

 

My favorite WW episode vacillates between 17 People, Bartlet for America, Posse Comitatus, and Celestial Navigation depending on mood. The whole Donovan/Sharif four episode arc is probably my favorite part of the show, and season three is definitely the strongest overall.

As for characters, my favorite used to be Sam, but these days it's more like CJ > Toby > Sam. God Allison Janney is amazing. Donna might be getting up there as well. Favorite ensemble characters are Ainsley (who needed to be a regular and I totally ship with Sam), Babish, Marbury, Fitzwallace, Keyworth, and Vinick, and I can't decide whether I love or hate Bruno. Maybe both. I also wish Bernard Thatch had more than two appearances to snark with CJ because they had great chemistry. The show just has a lot of great characters, though, really.

 

For me, there is no favorite character. Jed is like in his own category. Abbey too. CJ probably wins overall because over 7 seasons, her character was kept the most consistent in behavior. Toby before Sorkin left though is just amazing and then he got screwed. Josh had amazing growth but that also made him grate on me at times.

And then Leo was just the heart. I struggle when I get to seasons 6 and 7 because of Leo and John Spencer’s death.

 

I agree that choosing a favorite character is like choosing a favorite child and it really does vary by episode.

I will say though that I think my favorite character is almost always either Josh, CJ, Donna, Jed, or Leo.

And if they were there in the early Sorkin year’s, I never really cozied up to them. With the exception of Annabeth, everyone introduced with or after Will Bailey never really worked for me. And as much as I love Josh Malina, Will Bailey is probably my least favorite West Wing character.

Also, another episode people don’t often talk about that I love is The Long Goodbye. CJ is just so good in that episode.


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I actually don't hate that episode like many do.

The one scene I always skip though is the last scene of "The Midterms." Jesus Christ (no pun intended) it clunks when they go around the circle and all say "God bless America." I know they were going for the "I serve at the pleasure of the president" moment but it worked better the first time.

 

An interesting graphical look at the perceived quality on the West Wing ...

The Ringer took a look at, statistically speaking, when shows "peak" - highest quality, the writers "get" the characters,the material, the audience, the challenge, etc. Graphed it on quality of score on IMDB vs. % of run completed as the two axis. West Wing is a clear outlier in their graph:



Compare it to a "general" drama:



A few things stand out to me:

• The show at it's best was so damn good, that it makes it feel like the bad episodes/stretch were terrible. They weren't. The worst stretch of The West Wing stacks up favorably to the mid-season peak of of the average drama.
• They didn't bring back nearly the good will in the last two seasons / finale that a lot of dramas get when putting a bow on things. I think this is because late on they simply didn't know what to do with a good number of characters (most notably, Toby) and got too far away from what made them succesful in the first place
• When they were good. I mean. Damn.

 

Season five is so hit and miss. When it's good, it's tremendous. John Goodman as president, for example is so good. Shutdown and The Supremes are good, really good episodes. The Supremes did what the show did at it's best - challenge the viewer to not accept what society has become. Sure, it has a "Utopian wing" ending, but that's okay - it's a TV Show. And I like Slow News Day, even if it's campy as hell. The rest of the season? ehhhhhhh

 

The problem with "Shutdown" is that, as good as it is, you have to go through the "Josh is being hit with the writers' stupid stick" part before you get to "oh yeah, Josh is really good at his job, maybe we should let him do it."

Also...

No. The second half of Season Six (once you know who shows up) is good ( "In The Room"), but you have to make it through Leo getting hit with the writers' stupid stick and the most absurd promotion in the history of promotions (though Josh and Toby taking the piss with it is admittedly hilarious). Plus the Will, Josh, and Donna hiatus.

"Opposition Research" is where it legit becomes great again, barring "Drought Conditions," which may be tied with the worst post-Sorkin ep as it starts to fully commit to Toby's character assassination...

 

That data is really interesting to me because -if I'm reading it correctly- that a lot of dramas use cliffhangers to keep people watching. The peak of The West Wing runtime is early on, then it dips down and comes back up to around the middle at the end. People kept coming back because it was engaging and the stories were good. A lot of dramas today I feel like use cliff hangers that make you want to know what happens next, but the substance is... questionable.

"The Supremes" is a great episode in what is otherwise a not great season. I don't blame the writers, they lost Sorkin who'd been basically writing everything, so they had to find the characters for themselves and it took awhile. But as someone watching, it's a bit painful.

"The Shutdown" drives me nuts for the reasons dp mentioned. I hate what they do to Josh and make him the idiot, but I do love when Abbey wants to know where Josh is. Because she wasn't hit with the stupid stick.


One of the things in season 5 that's not a huge plot point (but its foreshadowing for one), but when they are in lock down in "No Exit" CJ sews the seeds of doubt in Donna about Josh and her job. She's telling Donna that Josh should have done more to get her a job, etc. I have a whole diatribe on this topic, but mostly it boils down to hypocrisy. I didn't see CJ getting Carol a better job.

 

@heels1785 honestly I think yours is slicker. I've spent so much time trying to find that photo online. I loved Josh but CJ is the greatest WW character (sorry Josh, Donna, Leo, Jed, Abbey, Charlie, Sam, everyone else except Will Bailey).

The Supremes is great & I think Shutdown would've been so much better if Sorkin just would've written it.

One thing I've noticed is that Sorkin puts a lot of stock into the different universities that these characters attend/attended. Zoey & Charlie attend Georgetown, of course. The president & his wife went to Notre Dame, CJ went to Berkeley, Sam went to Princeton, Toby to CUNY, and Josh famously declares himself a "graduate of Harvard & Yale."