Pre-Qui-Gon Force Ghosts?

If Qui-Gon was supposedly the first one to learn the secrets to come back, how do you explain the EU force ghosts of: Andur Sunrider, the Sith Lords that appear to Bane, Ulic QEL-Droma's disappearing body, and probably more I cannot think of. I don't understand this.

 

"If Qui-Gon was supposedly the first one to learn the secrets to come back, how do you explain the EU force ghosts of: Andur Sunrider, the Sith Lords that appear to Bane, Ulic QEL-Droma's disappearing body, and probably more I cannot think of. I don't understand this."

Qui-gon was not the first jedi to learn the ability to become a force ghost, he was the first jedi to learn it in a long time. The teachings of how to become one with the force and return again was simiply lost in time and I think during the KOTOR era.

 

There were so many Jedi-Sith conflicts, that it was inevitable lots of Jedi Holocrons were destroyed. I also think the Sith knew the secret. Go visit Korriban. The thing is Jedi knowledge has severely degraded over the many thousands of years. I also think Palpatine learnt a fair bit from the Korriban ghosts.

 

From a post my me on 6/23/02.

MY theory on the Jedi Ghost thing is that it was very common in the TotJ era for a Jedi Master to do so, as he was taught by another Master upon reaching that rank. At some point Ulic Qel-Droma learned it, which is why he disapears and why Nomi says only Jedi Masters can do it. Some time, probably around JvS, the technique was lost to all but a few (people on Ossus, and a few scattered Jedi also passed it on, which accounts for other people being able to do it), but the Jedi Council lost the knowledge. Qui-Gon somehow discovered it, but hadn't completed studying it before he died in TPM which explains why his body didn't disappear and why he could only communitcate with his voice, and only at a very emotional time. Yoda starts looking it up after AotC and discovers the secret. He teaches Obi-Wan how to do it.

But that's just MY theory.

 

Only problem with that is that if you read EU, particularily the NJO, when a certain Jedi dies (not gonna say who, but the incident takes place in Dark Tide II near the end) she disappears. So, that would mean that Yoda/Obi taught Luke and he taught the 100+ Jedi from his Academy.

 

Don't really see how that'd count as a problem.
ROTS describes Force ghosting as being immortal-I don't see why Luke & the rest couldn't have been taught how.

 

What's interesting is that Vergere knew how to do it as well. As she appeared to Jacen after her death in Destiny's Way.

 

Jedi such as Andur and Vergere only appear as spirits directly after their deaths, and are never seen again. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan appear for many years after their deaths - and despite Obi-Wan's comments to the contrary in HttE, I assume they can continue to appear indefinately. Perhaps all Jedi leave a sort of residual image for a short while after their death; prior to their becoming one with the Force, they're able to retain their identity for a few moments to impart whatever words of wisdom they deem necessary to their loved ones.

Qui-Gon is able to retain his identity even after he becomes one with the Force - having learned the secret from a Shaman of the Whills. Seeing as Yoda describes the Order of the Whills as 'ancient' in the RotS script, it's possible that this order discovered the secret of eternal life prior to or during the TotJ era. Sadly, the Jedi Civil War and its aftereffects seem to have wiped this knowledge from existence: though Qui-Gon, being the maverick he is, is able to unlock the secrets of the Force after death.

 

Obi Wan's comments in HTTE are slighty wrong, since he SPEAKS to Luke mind you not appears in Edge of Victory Rebirth and The Unifying force, short quick isolated lines. remember also that Anakain appears to Jacen in Balance Point and speaks to him in TUF

 

Force Ghost don't pop in whenever they please and make small talk, they return to help someone they know find thier destiny.

Just because Andur and Vergere don't return after they do what they need to do doesn't mean they can't, they just don't need to. Luke is basiclly the hope of the whole galaxy, even after redeeming Vader and causing Palp's destruction. He has more to do, and needs help from the netherworld. If Nomi Sunrider were later in life to need help, I'm sure Andur would return to her, and we don't exactly know he didn't, it just hasn't been written.

And Vergere has only recently died, we may yet see more of her. And I'm sure the Jedi who disappeared was choosen to disappear above the other Jedi casualties for some future plot. And of course Aniken will be back as a ghostie.

Who knows, some of the Sunrider ancestors are still around correct? Perhaps thier ancestors will be around (eh wishful thinking)

 

It appears that there is something of a middle ground between the various depictions seen throughout the saga -- as Kwenn mentions above, Andur Sunrider fails to remanifest after TOTJ #3 -- that we know of. But despite what Obi-Wan tells Luke about him no longer being able to postpone "[his journey] to the netherworld," this is not an absolute thing...i.e., that there still exists some residual ability to re-transubstantiate, as we see in The Last Command comic adapatation.

As for folks like Rahn, one of Yoda's former students, it seems contingent upon that dreaded concept: "attachment."

In other words, some tangible connection, whether biological, friendship, or otherwise; some grounded link to the physical world that necessitates their witholding completion of the final journey until their task is completed -- what are known as "anniversary ghosts," et cetera.

 

Don't think that every spirit that you see is that of a Jedi. Sith/Dark Jedi are able to do the same in a way, but it involves some external objects (alchecmy/temple etc.) and makes them able to appear as ghosts. Some are also able to trick others and make them believe they are seeing actual spirits, while it's only an illusion. True immortality is only achieved by the true Jedi, and none of the fallen Jedi or the dark Jedi would ever be able to do it.

 

Regarding Rahn...

IIRC, he never actually appeared as a full-on Force-ghost, but just in Kyle's dream. The rest of the time Kyle just hears his voice.

I mean, this is in the same arena as the other stuff, but I thought I might clarify.

 

He's still a Force-ghost by most reckonings, though...remember that Kenobi's final visitation to Luke in Heir to the Empire was in a dream, like Rahn's; there are apparently varying "degrees" of Force-ghosting-ness that can be attained, probably according to the situation.

 

Only problem with that is that if you read EU, particularily the NJO, when a certain Jedi dies (not gonna say who, but the incident takes place in Dark Tide II near the end) she disappears. So, that would mean that Yoda/Obi taught Luke and he taught the 100+ Jedi from his Academy.

Who says it was Luke that taught her? Why couldn't she have learned it somewhere else?

 

And who said she was a Jedi ghost? Sith/dark Jedi can do the same via some unconventional means, and also such appearances can be faked quite well. For the Jedi, it has to be taught, just like the Sith/dark Jedi have to learn it from someone. As far as (true) Jedi go, Qui-Gon taught Yoda, Yoda taught Obi-Wan, both took care of Anakin after he turned.

 

There isn't actually a direct link shown between disappearance to the ghost. Qui-Gon and Anakin did not disappear and they both ghosted.

Perhaps disappearance is simply more like Jedi self-euthanasia to avoid a painful death.