ST Premonition Crises: The Saga's True Antagonist?

Interesting theory, will they continue this in the Sequel Trilogy? They mirrored many things with Anakin/Luke, including the premonitions, but do we want them to continue the whole rhyming/poetry thing GL mentioned or do we want to see something new?

 

Visions are a SW staple and I fully expect them in the ST. But saying things like negative premonitions might be wind up the real villain of the saga...that's way too out there for these kinds of movies. Granted, Star Wars is a little flaky at times but this just sounds horribly convoluted. Worse than that, it's boring. Like how they say your own dreams are fascinating to you but dull to everybody else. Watching people trying to solve the problem of bad visions as a major plot point sounds like something out of a bad horror-drama.

And then what happens in the end? The visions stop? Someone finds a special crystal that forever tames the midichlorians...oh boy. Yeah I'm going to assume that visions in the ST will be used the same way as always. Just part of the package for people attuned to the Force, for better or worse. If it drives Luke mad so be it.

Besides what kid is going to want an action figure of a premonition for Christmas? You need tangible villains for this universe.

 

I never said that... I said it wasn't the premonition that was the focus, but his relationships. That is why it is captivating. The premonition is nothing more than a simple plot device, nothing more.

And that's the biggest problem.. it really has no where to go. Either you follow your heart - which makes a story interesting, or you do as Yoda instructed and ignore it.... boring. That's why the premonition can't be the focus, just a tool.

 

I think you're reading way too much into what I said, as is evidenced by that last sentence. The villainous characters will still be the villains. My question is more of a deeper, philosophical reflection on the overall story so far than a prescription for the plot of the ST movies. And I'll ask the same question I asked Evil_eLF: Did you find Revenge of the Sith to be a bad horror-drama? Because it's basically watching someone try to solve the problem of a bad vision. The whole ending of the Empire Strikes back is watching Luke try to solve the problem of a bad vision. That's the only reason he ends up on Cloud City in the first place. How is that not a major plot point? It's only reason Anakin went to Tattooine in AOTC. These are major plot points. All I'm wondering is if those kinds of things are going to continue, and if so, will the would-be Jedi first have to learn to deal with them appropriately: to accept loss, to resist acting on fear, to seek wisdom, to do all the things that will allow them to live with these visions in a healthy way, before they can form a new order that is symbiotic with the galactic societies. When I say antagonist (I never said villain, btw) I mean the main stumbling block that is making it difficult for protagonists to move forward.

 

I already told you.. I disagree he's trying to solve a bad premonition. He had a bad premonition sure, and it's affecting him, but it's the unhealthy relationship that is the issue due to the fact that he felt the need to keep it hidden.

You seem to personally put more emphasis on the premonition itself instead of the individual character.

As I said, in ROTS, I only see the premonition as a simple plot device, not a story focus.

 

Actually, I think watching the progress the protagonist makes toward his or her goal is what is captivating, but I agree with you it isn't the premonition itself that's captivating. But I'm not talking about what makes a story captivating. I'm talking about the crises that the premonitions bring up being an consistent in-universe obstacle for our heroes, along with whatever human-related flaws that factor into the crises, such as impatience, impertinence, fear, ignorance, etc. Those human problems are the true obstacles, human-wise and their expression as premonition crises in the story may be the true obstacles for the Jedi, story-wise.

I never said it has to be the focus. I'm just wondering if the biggest deterrent to forming a truly effective order of Jedi Knights is the kinds of problems the heroes have with those premonitions. You guys are reading too much into my question.

 

All force users have premonitions. It's not the fact of premonition that's the problem, it's the Jedi's heart.

As I said, Yoda tried to advise Luke against saving his friends, because that's what the old order practiced. Letting go of attachment. Luke refused to let go of attachment as that scene shows, and it's that very attachment that prevents him from turning to the darkside. The is the story of Luke

That's why I cannot see the crisis of premonition as a problem. It was just a way to put both Anakin and Luke through similar situations and show how different the ouctomes are based on their personal situations in how they handle relationship.

ALL force users have premonitions. Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, the Emperor, Vader etc, etc, etc.

 

I don't remember Qui-Gon having a premonition. Obi-Wan and Yoda (and most of the other Jedi) had a flawed detachment philosophy, so it was easy for them to accept death or horrible fates they foresaw. The Emperor and Vader did not care about the lives of others, so it was easy for them to accept the deaths and horrible fates they foresaw. I agree that Luke's love for his friends and family is what saved him in the end, but his rush to Cloud City was not example of that. That was an example of his impatience and ignorance, and he fell into Vader's trap. In the end, he was forced to choose between joining the Dark Side or death. He chose death. Luckily he survived. Compare his rush to Cloud City with his calm, clear-headed, patient decision to toss away his lightsaber, look the Emperor straight in the eye, and refuse to accept his offer. That wasn't about trying to act on a vision, it was simply about being resolute and holding fast to his values.

 

The simple fact that he said to Obi-Wan "I foresee you becoming a great Jedi" shows how common premonitions are with the Force. It's reached the level of matter of fact conversation and compliments.

Luke's rush to Cloud City was to show his refusal to let go of his friends, and that refusal to let go is what ultimately saved him. Falling into Vader's trap IMO says nothing other than Vader set a trap for a young kid who he knew cared for his friends and the kid went to help. Luke even as a Jedi Master would have done EXACTLY the same thing, because that is who Luke is... plain and simple. No matter how much knowledge he has of the force, he'd run to his friend's aid every time!

 

Obviously, there was nothing matter of fact about the ones Anakin and Luke had. The point is they dealt with them the wrong way. If the old Jedi way of doing things is to be discounted, there needs to be a healthy way of dealing with the kinds of prems Anakin and Luke had. Perhaps Qui-Gon had the secret.

 

See my edit above... Luke would do EXACTLY the same EVERY TIME! He didn't act wrong IMO, he acted as Luke would ALWAYS act. Full Grand Master or just fresh off the Farm.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. To me, Luke went through a journey of maturity, improving on the way he deals with things throughout the OT. His decision to die rather than join Vader in ESB was not what he set out to do. He set out to help his friends and failed. His decision to throw away his lightsaber and refuse to join the Emperor in ROTJ is what he set out to do, and he succeeded.

 

He set out on his own to confront Vader and the Emperor he did precisely to help his friends, as his presence on Endor was endangering their entire mission.

I disagree that he failed in ESB, he faced Vader and didn't turn to the dark side there either... all while keeping Vader focused on him instead of Leia and company allowing them to escape as well.

 

I suppose I didn't consider Luke's presence a distraction for Vader from Leia and Company, and if Luke hadn't come, Vader might have done something horrible to Leia to further tempt Luke. Still, I think Luke overestimated the danger he was in and was lucky that Vader was incompetent to freeze him. If Vader actually succeeded in bringing Luke to the Emperor, who knows if Luke would have resisted the Emperor's offer at that point? I would think visions and premonitions need to be handled with maturity and I'm not sure how an attachment-supporting Jedi order would handle that.

 

I think premonitions will be used as they always have and still not be considered an antagonist of the Jedi, but a useful tool.

Again, I applaud your approach with your theory, I just don't see the "premonition" issue as much of a factor in how to form a new Jedi Order. They will be there, and they will be used differently by each individual as they are directed by their own personal experiences.

 

I suppose I see where you're coming from. Certainly acting on your compassion for others is important and I would never in a million years that think the heart of the saga is about anything other than that. I just think that the question of how to act on one's compassion is a significant issue for the Jedi. What are the consequences of impatience, ignorance, fear, arrogance, etc. on the way one behaves? Will it be better handled by overcoming those elements, if so, how? I think those are themes that could be richly explored in the new trilogy, as they were in the others, in the context of having these unbidden super-human abilities, especially this form of omniscience. How trustworthy is it? How alterable is the vision and in what sense is it alterable, etc?

 

Nice observation. I think premonitions for better or worse come with the territory of being a powerful Force user. They can't be "overcome". An individual's reaction to them however can be controlled. That's partly what the non attachment existence of the pre Empire Jedi was all about. Some people are critical of their monk like philosophies. On the hand you've just pointed out how 2 Jedi who did have strong emotional attachments were manipulated by the bad guys. Which side of the fence does older Luke now sit on? It's an interesting topic.

 

Always in motion is the future.

Had Anakin ignored his vision, he wouldn't have betrayed the Jedi (at least not then) and Padme wouldn't have died. What Anakin saw was a possible future that became a self-fulfilling prophecy because in trying to stop it, he ended up causing it. In the case of Luke's visions, there was nothing he could do to stop them from coming true. Had he stayed on Dagobah, Han and Leia would still have been tortured and they still would have had the opportunity to escape (though it would have been much harder with Vader not being distracted). In the end, Luke was right to go. Yoda would argue differently but I think it was important for Luke to confront Vader and learn the truth.

You also have to consider Palpatine. While it's never directly stated, it's certainly implied that Palpatine used premonitions as part of his plan. I'd even suggest that it went further than that. Perhaps Palpatine didn't see just one future, perhaps he saw many and manipulated events to create the future he desired most. But even Palpatine's mastery of premonition wasn't enough to save him and he was ultimately undone by a moment of compassion, something he failed to see. Plus he didn't foresee a rebel victory.

 

I think premonitions and how to handle them aren't so much a theme as a plot device to get across information the characters wouldn't have otherwise. If it was a theme we could expect to have some sort of consistent message with regard to them. Anakin's story comes closest where he is repeatedly unable to save the ones he loves (ie. the future is set and fate is inevitable, therefore you shouldn't try to change it) but Luke actually is able to so it can't be said that it was really a consistent lesson throughout.

 

Actually, that's uncertain because we don't know what Luke's vision of pain was. I always assumed it was of Han getting tortured and frozen, and Leia being in emotional pain over Han. That's why I initially thought Luke couldn't change his vision either, because those things happened. But maybe Luke saw a worse pain for them that his intervention thwarted.


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@original post: This would tie in with one of Qui-Gon's first lines in TPM

Obi-Wan: But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future
Qui-Gon: But not at the expense of the moment.

 

I've only skimmed many of these posts, but it seems to me that you guys are kind of dancing around the real issue at the core of this, which is fear of loss. That fear is in fact one of the central themes in the saga, and premonitions are really just a means of creating that conflict in the protagonist. And to that end, I suspect we will continue to see them used.

 

But that's the whole point: it's not a consistent message. The two options are: a. Luke changed the future and rescued his friends, or b. Luke fulfilled the vision but rescued his friends. Either way he rescued or contributed to the rescue of his friends. More importantly, he reacted exactly like Anakin did yet while Anakin received only negative consequences from his actions Luke's behavior actually had (some) positive ones. If we were talking a theme of negative prophecies damaging Jedi's lives then we could expect to see Luke fail as well. If we were seeing some sort of commentary on the inevitability of fate then we should expect Luke's situation to be clearer. Sorry, but as an idea this idea of the punishing power of negative premonitions really only works for the prequels.

 

Wait, I'm confused. How exactly did Luke rescue his friends?