Saga Prequel Jedi vs Classic Jedi

Usually who owns what is clarified in the contract which is signed by the purchasor and the seller. In this case, Sifo-Dyas signed the thing.

Not sure what you meant in your second question. Yes, the Jedi didn't know squat about the real situation. Which is why it was very irresponsible to start a war.

 

So, Darth_Pevra , what do you suppose "This army is for the Republic" means? Why is it said that it is for the Republic and not for the Jedi if the Kaminoans believe the army is for the Jedi?

You've returned to blaming the Jedi for starting the war when a) we are shown the scene where the Separatists, with Dooku leading the way, discuss their plans to invade the Republic with a huge droid army they have created in secret on Geonosis(and we also see that Obi-Wan overhears this and reports it to the Jedi Council). b) we see the Senate decide to give emergency powers to CHancellor Palpatine. c) we see Palpatine declare the creation of the Grand Army of the Republic.

At no point do the Jedi make any decisions at all...and yet you take from the movie that they decided it all. How?! Just how does the movie relate that to you at all? I'm genuinely interested in how you perceive the Jedi responsible for actions that are, within the movie, made by everyone else.

 

Double post....

 

I'm sick and tired of repeating myself over and over again.

 

I see, so you have based it on the fact that Sifo-Dyas allegedly ordered the clones and he was a Jedi? That's it, right? Despite the fact that the Kaminoans state that the army is for the Republic (and the Republic, through the Senate and then the Chancellor actually decide in the movies what to do with the clones)/ Despite the fact that the Jedi did not authorise or have any knowledge of the order. Despite the fact that the Jedi act for the Republic (hence two Jedi are ambassadors of the Republic). I just wondered if there was some other reason than that it is alleged that a Jedi Master visited and made the arrangements (though obviously on behalf of the Republic).

 

Indeed, and the Kaminoans seem pretty clear who owns them, because they say that the army is for the Republic. So, whoever signed for them was acting, as far as the Kaminoans are concerned, on behalf of the Republic.

What I generally take from movies is what I am shown (or told). I think that, if we were to understand that the Jedi owned the army and offered it to the Republic then we would have been shown that. Instead what we are shown is the Republic choosing what to do with the army while the Jedi wait on the sidelines for the result of those decisions, and we are told that the army is for the Republic

 

I think you two are talking past each other. You clearly are looking at it from different angles as well.

 

Yes indeed. Sometimes my discussion style might seem a little 'bulldozerish' (yeah, I've probably just made that word up), but there is a reason behind it. I get the impression that 'the Jedi is to blame' is a pre-conceived construct, and that it is projected onto the movies regardless of what is actually there. By just pressing on statements you get to see that argument shift its form, and it becomes clear that the desire precedes what actually occurs in the movies, and actually drives the 'interpretation'. Another way of putting it is that the 'interpretation' is driving rather than the narrative content.

 

For some like you, perhaps. As I have said before, some bring their standards to what they observe and based on what is seen and implied the Jedi are somewhat at fault for many things. People not seeing it that way is their choice as well.

 

I think you may have misunderstood me. I was not intending to claim that any who argue for holding the Jedi responsible are letting their interpretation drive rather than the narrative. I was merely explaining how 'interrogating' a position and watching how much it's form shifts will advise on how much that is the case. You made your case perfectly well. I may not agree but I don't get the impression that you bend the narrative to your will.

 

The thing about armies and military equipment (remember it wasn't just the clones that were created, but their armour, vehicles, and fleet as well) is that they are collectively owned, rather than owned by individuals.

When the President signs for a delivery of fighter planes from a manufacturer - that does not make the planes the President's property. Or that of the Senate. But the property of the country as a whole.

As Maverick's commander puts it in Top Gun : "You don't own that plane - the taxpayers do."

 

If you mean the "I meant in compares to just taking over the unprotected Republic with their droid army" part so was I mean that, if I understood it right, so was the Separatists plan along the line of telling the Republic to either change what they did not like or they would break out with the help of their droid army, probably "liberating" many worlds rich in resources and/or along major trade routes. That the Republic was able to fight back did not seem to be part of the plan.

So what I meant was that even if BC and TF made a profit from the war while it lasted so was it not the great amount that their original plan would have given them.



P.s: only one kenobi there is an edit function so you dont need to dubble post.

 

The TCW episodes I previously spoke of clearly show that the TF and banking clan are very much in favor of a continuing war. "Taking over an unprotected Republic" wouldn't work because Palpatine orchestrated the building of the clone army and he got the senate and Jedi to act just as he wished them. The leaders of TF and banking clan were quite possibly in on the plan.

Tarkin, an outsider, was also granted very sensitive information about it by Count Dooku.

In this case, the president (chancellor) didn't officially sign on for anything.

 

"I will create a grand army to counter the threat of the Separatists."

That's Palpatine-speak for "I will accept ownership, on behalf of the Republic, of this army that has already been created."

 

That would be theft unless the Jedi grant him the use of the army.

 

Only if - as you're assuming, the Jedi have become "owners of the army" the moment Yoda found out about it from Obi-Wan.

The phrase "This army is for the Republic" to me, seems strongly like the Republic as a whole is the one the Kaminoans have designed "owners" - they're just awaiting the opportunity to hand them over - since the Kaminoans have already been paid.

 

We have been over this already. The Republic can't be the owner because they didn't buy the clones, simply as that.

It is the Jedi who were the official buyers.

Period.

 

I've tried to go over this but you keep ignoring everything that doesn't fit what you demand from the story.Again using your own logical argument - you said that "Usually who owns what is clarified in the contract which is signed by the purchasor and the seller." and the Kaminoans seem clear, when asked, who have ownership of the army. In other words who the alleged Sifo-Dyas ordered the army for, on behalf of. "This army is for the Republic" - a direct and unequivocal response regarding the question of ownership of the army, which not surprisingly ties in with what we then see - ie the Senate and Chancellor deciding what to do with said army.

 

But in AOTC we see Dooku assure the various moguls in the separatist movement that the Republic will be powerless against their droid army. And after the arrival of the clone army Dooku feigns surprise to them at the appearance of the army. The TF knew nothing of the machinations of the Sith, they were played by them. I think it is made reasonably clear they have no stomach for a protracted war and are tricked and cajoled into doimg what their Sith puppet-masters desire.

 

It's interesting to see what Yoda's thinking when the Senators discuss the approval of the army's use, in the junior novelization of AOTC:

Everyone listened carefully to Mace Windu's summary; then Bail Organa shook his head. "The Commerce Guilds are preparing for war - there can be no doubt of that."
Yoda's ears twitched. Listen, these Senators did not. They feared, and reacted. They did not think.
"Now we need that clone army!" Senator Ask Aak burst out.
But everyone knew the Senate would never give its approval for that - not until it was too late. And there were not enough Jedi to hold off an army of droids.
"Through negotiation, the Jedi maintains peace." Yoda said pointedly. "To start a war, we do not intend." There might, even yet, be time to talk a way out of the conflict ... but he sensed no patience in the room, only fear and urgency as the Senators discussed what to do.
"The Senate must vote the Chancellor emergency powers," Mas Amedda suggested at last. "Then he could approve the use of the clones."
War, you mean. Yoda thought sadly. What other use was there for an army? Not in centuries had Yoda so wanted to comment, to interfere in the politics playing out before him, but he had already said what was needed, and the Senators had not grasped his meaning. He held his peace. Jedi serve. Make laws, we do not.
The Senators looked at one another. Plainly, they thought the idea was a good one, but none of them wanted to be the one to propose such a huge change in the way the government ran. Finally, Jar Jar Binks stepped forward.
"Mesa proud to proposing the motion to give yousa honor emergency powers," he said to Palpatine, and the matter was settled. Jar Jar would bring the motion up, and the other Senators would support it. When it passed, Chancellor Palpatine would approve the emergency use of the clone army.
Barely an hour later, Yoda sat beside Mace Windu, looking down from the visitors' balcony as the Senate seethed. The news had leaked out; he could feel the fear hanging over the chamber like dense fog. Fear is the path to the dark side, he thought, but the Senate would not understand even if there were some way he could tell them.
With almost indecent haste, the motion to give Palpatine full emergency powers was proposed and passed. The Senate cheered Jar Jar's courage, and Palpatine rose to speak.
"It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this," the Chancellor said. "The power you give me, I will lay down when this crisis has abated. And as my first act with this new authority, I will create a grand army of the Republic to counter the increasing threats of the Separatists."
Yoda shook his head sadly. Beside him, Mace Windu stirred. "It is done, then," he said heavily. He looked at Yoda. "I will take what Jedi we have left and go to Geonosis to help Obi-Wan."
That left the other task to him. Yoda nodded, accepting it. "Visit I will the cloners on Kamino, and see what it is they are creating." And to see whether there still is some way this war to avoid.

 

What use could an army be if not for war? Poor Yoda, why are you written as so dumb?

a) guarding the border etc., all kinds of defense
b) to help when a natural disaster occurs

My home country hasn't fought in a war for many years (unless you count UN interventions), but it still has an army. In Austria, the army fights more floods than enemies.

 

The fact that the Republic has gotten along for 1000 years without its own army might be why Yoda thinks this way at this point.

That said - the Republic's "judicial forces" seem to fill a similar niche.

 

Yes, but given the situation, what else would it be for?

 

The judicials are an army just with another name.