Saga Prequel Jedi vs Classic Jedi

The best Jedi I've seen has to be Zayne Carrick from the KOTOR comics.
The opinion of the Jedi Order had to go down in the eyes of the public since they were applauding Palpatine's speech in ROTS, they just didn't handle it very well.

 

Dass Jennir is the best Jedi ever. The guy was a boss.

 

I think it's a bit of a generalization to say that all the Jedi where the same. I mean, clearly from TCW they have different personalities and even in the films you can tell that they think differently.

 

Where did I say that all the prequel Jedi were the same? I was responding to the post where someone says that they imagined all Jedi being like Kanan.

 

Sorry for the misinterpretation

 

Seems you have made a vague assumption about all the Jedi. After the Qui-Gon's death the Jedi seem very weary about the return of the Sith, Yoda and Mace discuss it during his funeral. Also the Jedi may seem to have flashier moves because they are used to training in sparring sessions, almost none of them have ever had to duel another lightsaber wielding oppoenent in their lives, so they style will reflect that. Their biggest focus wa son ebign able to face several blaster wieldign opponents at once, which would involve a lot of sweeps and acrobatics. The Sith on the other hand had trained specifically to fight and kill Jedi. And their style reflects that. While Yoda and Obi-Wan do seem to learn from the mistakes of the Clone Wars and become wiser for it, it is a massive assumption to think that the Jedi of the prequel era were vain and blind. They died defending a democracy that betrayed them.

 

It's not that massive given how things are presented, TSC.

 

The PT Jedi are slavers and thus all the blood of fallen clones is on them and the council. As is the war that was started over the execution of a few spies.

The PT Jedi are consumate hypocrits. They speak of peace and make war. They speak of freedom and take it away, not only from the slaves but even from themselves. Yoda talks about arrogance in other Jedi, yet is the most arrogant of them all. Obi-Wan calls Anakin reckless, yet jumps through windows.

It is really hard to pity the ones who caused the death of so many who are basically children. I wouldn't call them victims, just another guilty party in a war that should not have happened.

 

Technically it's the Kaminoans that are slave-sellers - and the Republic Senate slave-buyers, at worst. The Jedi didn't participate in that bit.

There's also the question of who ordered the clones created in the first place - who hired the prime clone after all? Dooku - as "Tyranus".

And the question of the necessity of using them once the war's started:

 

Now you are shifting responsibility from the Jedi. The Jedi were the owners of the army, the Kaminoans said so. And they were the commanders of the slaves. They carry full responsibility for what happens with the clones.

 

"This army is for the Republic".

And we know from TCW Season 6 that Dooku arranged the murder of Sifo-Dyas.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas/Canon

The responsibility is at least partly to Palpatine and the Senate, for issuing the order to the Jedi to take command of the clones in the first place.

Now "I was just following orders" is not a complete defence - but it may be a partial one - especially if the Jedi had no reason to believe the order was "an illegitimate order" in the first place.

 

Yes, partially. But responsibility falls to the Jedi too, which was my point. They all, the senat and the Jedi and definitely the chancellor, they all carry blood on their hands. Fighting about who carries the most is moot. As far as I am considered, they are all slavers.

Actually it is not much of a defense at all as the Nürnberg trials showed.

 

And a great many of the people were acquitted or convicted on lesser charges - the prosecution had to narrow down culpability, rather than convicting every single one of "genocide".

 

But you see, every Jedi general commanded slaves and so every Jedi general is to be held responsible if said slaves died. There's a direct chain of cause and effect here that no judge could ignore.

Padawan's like Ahsoka or people like Jocasta Nu would be in a better position because they are either (a minors or (b not much involved in the war.

Even Yoda understands in TCW that the Jedi are fully responsible for the war and suffering. Well, I hold them responsible too. The creator chose to make them into slavers.

 

That's a incredibly simple way of putting it. The Sith were responsible for the war. Dooku paid for and ordered the creation of the army, while Palpatine created a culture of fear in the Senate and manipulated Jar Jar into making it seem like Padme supported him as well. I know it's cool and trendy to make it seem like the good guys actually created the bad situation..but in this case it was the bad guys.

 

Blaming the Sith on their own is what I consider a too simple way of putting it. The Sith have been enabled by the Jedi & the Senate. Without the internal moral corruption permeating both the Jedi order and the Senate the Sith wouldn't have stood a chance.

It is a fact that the Jedi were slavers, whether you like it or not. I happen to dislike it strongly, it makes it impossible for me to sympathize with pretty much anyone in the PT.

 

BOTH the Jedi and Sith are responsible. NOT just one. The Jedi had choices and they allowed their morality to be scarified to the situation. They shouldn't have. They are warriors and slavers and it was NOT forced on them, they chose it. It is wrong.

 

"Slaver" is a slightly different thing from slaveowner.

Traditionally, it refers to those that actually kidnap people (and sell them as slaves). Though it could possibly be stretch to cover those who manufacture slaves as well.

The Kaminoans and the Zygerrians are slavers.

The Republic Senate become slaveowners when they accept the clones from Kamino.

The Jedi - not so much. No Jedi claims ownership of a clone.

 

The Jedi *treat* the clones as slaves though.

 

In Karen Traviss books, maybe. In the movies, not so much. More "subordinate soldiers/officers".

 

Even in the Karen Traviss books, we only get that perspective from a select few clones. Maybe not every clone felt that way. I doubt Rex or Cody thought that.

 

There's also chapter headline quotes from a few Jedi (and one Padawan) that are designed to hint at a condescending attitude and a lack of understanding.

 

Sorry, English is not my native tongue so I didn't know the distinction.

In any case the Jedi are using the Clones like slaves and that is what matters to me. The clones were born for war and then misused for war without anyone ever asking if it is right to have them die en massé for someone elses cause, these children who never got a choice to say no to anything.

The clones are not consenting adults like normal soldiers are, they don't know any better than to follow orders because it was programmed into their brain, which is the most nefarious method of control I can think of.

 

In which scene did the Jedi buy/sell slaves though? You know, the definition of a slaver?

 

The Jedi treat the clones as military commanders to subordinates.