Saga Prequel Jedi vs Classic Jedi

That's an interesting question - maybe the Kaminoans have already grown them (thanks to having been paid in advance by Dooku) but aren't giving them to the Republic without extra money - and claiming that the Republic only paid for the first batch - and must pay for the later batches before the Kaminoans will release them.

 

The Jedi hypocrisy is that they paint and preach themselves as the servents of Light and Morality while precisely doing the exact opposite. They are as grey as the Sith or anyone else. It amazes me that so any eagerly justify and dismiss their immorality particularly regarding the clones and being warriors when they declare they are NOT such.

 

That is possible and I can see some of the kaminoans use that tactic.

How are the sith grey? You can post a long explanation if you want, I can wait.

 

Obi-Wan calls Anakin "the finest star pilot in the galaxy - and a cunning warrior" in ANH. Yoda's "Wars not make one great" is not a denial that he is a warrior - only an assertion that "greatness" has nothing to do with combat skills.

"We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers" - true, at the time. But they take on the job of soldiering - because, from their perspective, if they did not, they would be abdicating their responsibility to protect the people of the Republic.

Altruism, more than anything else - is what defines the Jedi. The problem is - it's something that can lead to "choosing the needs of the many over the needs of the few" - turning a blind eye to some wrongs, in order to fight greater wrongs.

Was what was done to the clones by the Kaminoans and the Republic wrong? Sure. But to the Jedi - abandoning their responsibility to the Republic in its time of need, would have been a vastly greater wrong.

I don't think any Jedi ever claims to be morally perfect - but it's clear in the movies that they are at least trying to figure out the "most moral" thing to do.

 

Please, provide an objective contradiction of their ways.

No Jedi said that. In fact, the series shows more than once how the Jedi are among the few who treat them as people above all else, unlike others (specially the Kaminoans).

 

I was replying to:

that is, pointing out that TCW shows the clones being treated as "something that can be bought" - by Republic Senators at least.

 

I don't understand what you are asking. I simply don't ascribe to situational ethics as the PT Jedi seem to.

 

Which is kind of the issue -

not "do the Jedi contradict your moral code"

but "do the Jedi contradict their own moral code"

And what is "The Jedi Moral Code" anyway? The movies don't really say much about it - it's more the EU's thing.

The OT gives "Use the force for knowledge and defence - not attack" and "Don't give in to hate" but not much else.

 

My bad.

To provide evidence to your claim that they are hypocrites.

If someone tried to kill you (or someone you care about), and the only chance to protect your own life (or the life of a loved one) is to kill the attacker, would you do it? If you would, is it a reasonable conclusion to assume that you're fine with people killing each other?

 

The most commonly cited example is deception:

Yoda: "Joined the Dark Side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now."

with a strong implication that Jedi shouldn't be deceitful - and that there's an association between deceit and The Dark Side,

yet Yoda's willing to use deceit himself, or sanction Ben to do it, when he feels it necessary - during the Clone Wars, and after.

 

Seems sort of fishy to me that the Jedi would go from so called keepers of the peace to war generals with little or no reluctance

Regardless of whether they feel it's for "the greater good" or not, it's no different than simply giving into violence

 

Omission and deceit are different things.

We must have seen different movies...

 

Precisely, Jon. So many say 'They had to do it'. No, they didn't. If they really were the bastions of morality their actions would've been different.

 

I'm thinking more the whole "faking Obi-Wan's death, and telling Anakin to his face that Obi-Wan is indeed dead" thing. And Obi-Wan does have to lie - and not just "omit facts" in order to ingratiate himself with Bane.

Yoda thought he had to do it - and (most of) the rest of the Jedi trusted Yoda and obeyed him.

 

It's only a very, VERY small range of Jedi whom we saw show uncertainty or apprehension about becoming generals, and all main characters at that. Imagine all the Jedi without speaking roles or even the thousands upon thousands not even shown on screen at all. The fact that they kept the job of general for over 3 years speaks volumes to me

And I personally believe in the phrase, "lying by omission" for the record

 

I thought you were talking about the OT.

Because it's only a very, VERY small range of Jedi characters that we follow, and all main and secondary characters at that.

 

I suppose it's sort of a headcanon thing of mine then. I personally like to pick apart the Jedi Order to further emphasize that it was they who brought about their own downfall

 

And here I thought it was a thousand year old sith plan...

 

Same here. Said plan simply took advantage of the Jedi Order's flaws

 

Going by the "newcanon" novel Tarkin, the Sith Order created those flaws in the first place - by ensuring that the Jedi placed their Temple over a Sith shrine (one more than 5000 years old. The Jedi thought the flow of dark side energy from the shrine was capped - it wasn't - but seeped out - influencing the thoughts of the Jedi.

 

Whatever influence there was, it must have been minor. In Star Wars, people are still responsible for their own actions.

 

There are a number of problems with this statement, one of which is equating the Jedi and the Sith as being "grey". Obviously, if we have different points of view of what constitutes as morality, then this is rather pointless to discuss.

Sure, it may be hypocrisy that the Jedi decide to become soldiers instead of being peacekeepers, but blaming them for that isn't fair in my opinion, especially because they don't have a choice to say no. If they decided to not command the clones into the army, then what? A much higher number of clones would have died than if the Jedi hadn't been in command teaching them survival skills and such. Besides, we see clearly that they don't take the lives of the Clones lost lightly, said so by Anakin himself, who is far from the exemplary Jedi. They give a sense of purpose and personality to a bunch of individuals who all look the same and talk the same. Surely, you think that if Tarkin and Yularen where in command they would have done this??

Besides, we see clearly that they wish to get themselves outside of the military in the long run and have Tarkin and other Admirals run the military as seen in CW. However, this only works for their disadvantage, since Palpatine uses that to say that the Jedi are no longer necessary. So you can say that they realized that what they where doing was against their morals and they seeked to get themselves out of that situation.

And besides, being a warrior in this case isn't an immoral act in my opinion. With the exception of the few cases in which they fought sentient beings, the Jedi fought against Droids, so quite frankly I don't think they are loosing themselves towards the dark side. Simply because they do one thing wrong doesn't automatically make them servants of the dark side. I mean, a few Jedi did eventually loose their sense of morality by using the Force for attack, (Krell, Barriss and Nahdar Vebb) but that hardly constitutes as what the Jedi where like as a whole.

And think about the Clones for a minute: They are being born and bred for war here. If the Jedi decided to not serve as their commanders, then I think a couple of these scenarios would have turned out:

1. They would have fought against the Droids, without any generals at first, and would have ended up dying in much higher numbers.

2. Palpatine would have had a much easier time of casting the Jedi as traitors, and you know, execute Order 66.

3. The Clones could have ended up in the service of the Separatists, and the Republic and the Jedi would have fallen.

So you know, they took the only choice they had. And that was essentially to command the Clones, prevent the most number of casualties possible, and once the war ended, give them the choice of freedom. I'm pretty sure the Jedi would have seeked to figure out how to make sure the clones would fit into the society, since well, they where the only ones that cared about them. So you know, I think in this case it was the right thing to do. It seems criminal to me to see them as the villains, to vindicate them in this case, because quite frankly, they did the right thing.

Simply because the options given to them aren't 100% rid of problems and moral dilemma do they deserve to be blamed and cast as the servants of the dark side.

The Jedi where still good, noble and honorable people. Why folks cannot see that is absolutely beyond me.

If you want to talk about a hero that is "grey" in his actions let's talk James Bond, or maybe even Han Solo.

I mean, should any person be punished for doing the right thing in this scenario in which they had no other option?? No. It's not them to be blamed.

 

The thing is the Jedi DID have other options they simply didn't choose to use them. I'm not saying some Jedi didn't *strive* to be moral. Some did but to be held as the Light of Morality? No, thanks. For me, all are grey, not some. Nice to see you consider at least a few such. I find it amazing how so many act like Jedi are victims and have no choice yet blatantly refuse to acknowledge that Imperials or Sith are still human as well. As I said, I don't buy situational ethics. *Shrugs* Many consider SW black and white, fine. I am not one of them. Why some can't see that Jedi shouldn't be whitewashed and Sith/Empire be blackwashed is beyond me. However, it is what it is. I am secure in my stances.

 

What other opinions do you consider them having?

When is the Sith/Empire be blackwashed?

 

Because - from their perspective - those options were mostly immoral.