PT Prequel nostalgia. Yes, it's a real thing.

I like how it was decked out with all the stuff an intrepid, industrious slave kid -- strong with the Force -- would probably surround himself with / create / be tinkering with.

Those visual aspects of TPM are some of its finest, in my opinion. Anakin's necklace, Shmi's workstation, the hovel generally -- they all tell a story in themselves.

This is why I'm happy George Lucas decided to start Darth Vader's life at age nine and get into the double-digits later.

 

i love the chrometrooper and other imagery in tfa but it's true that if gl did it it would be "to sell toys". people don't really know what they want. they want a feeling. if they don't get that "feeling" they auto-hate whatever it is.

try not to auto-hate. you'll live longer.

i didn't like the look of tcw film and only caught the show a few times. thankfully netflix got it and i gave it another chance. i watched (in chrono order) it once all the way through and another time with my mother who really enjoyed it. we stopped after a few episodes and watched ep 1 and 2 again, finished the tcw and then watched rots. not only did she enjoy it immensely but she understood the pt on a much deeper level. then we watched the ot. it gave her a whole new outlook on a saga that she started watching in 1977 but had never really thought much about the episode numbers. it made it a cohesive experience for her that she appreciates even more now.

 

Do we even know if the chrome guy is a Stormtrooper? Maybe he is a bounty hunter or something.

 

What frustrated me was that Kennedy said there were limited female characters in Star Wars, and the only example she gives is Leia. Padme and Ahsoka are great characters (Ahsoka is one of my favorites) and Rebels has a few of them as well, why didn't she defend Star Wars and say something like "Well, we do already have great female characters - just look at the love for Ahsoka - but there are certainly more on the way?"

 

^ that kind of ticked me off as well even though I think she was talking about when she was young.
But yeah, Ahsoka, Padme, Satine, Sabine, Hera, all the female Jedi... ASAJJ FREAKIN' VENTRESS
They definitely have lots of fans. We definitely need more female characters but yo. give the rad ladies that we DO have right now their credit.

Didn't they notice the big #AhsokaLives gathering in front of the convention center?

 

I don't even like the Rebels characters, but there is no denying they are popular - maybe Kennedy just had a brain fart? It has happened to me before lol

But ya, Padme, Ahsoka, Leia, Ventress, Mon Mothma, Hera, Sabine, Satine, Luminara, Barriss, etc...lots of high-profile female characters in Star Wars.

 

I enjoyed both trailers and am looking forward to TFA but I think Cryo, mikeximus, and several others here are making some very interesting observations (here and in the other thread in this forum about Disney "catering" to OT-only fans) about the "calculations" that the filmmakers seem to be making in terms of the rollout of the film. As much as I love Han and Chewie in general, I noticed from my first viewing of the 2nd teaser that the closing shot of those OT characters did not seem to be having the effect upon me that seems clearly intended.

At first I attributed my somewhat subdued reaction to the trailer's conclusion to the fact that I happened to be extremely tired when I first saw the new teaser, and I also wondered if knowing for a fact in advance that Han and Chewie would be in the film had muted my reaction. But I also had a slight feeling of being somewhat "manipulated" (maybe too strong a word?) by the choice to include the "We're home" bit of dialogue with their appearance. Again, maybe I'm not using the right words (I'm pretty tired right now, too!), but something about that last shot of them felt a little too "obvious" or something. I characterized it elsewhere as feeling a bit like "fanservice". Though from my experience here on the forums, I've found that I like things from the prequels that some posters feel were too "fanservice-y" (like Anakin having built Threepio, Chewie's cameo in ROTS, etc.), so I don't know what to make of my reaction to the Han/Chewie moment.

Again, overall, I enjoyed the trailers and they actually made me more excited for the film than I felt when the Disney sale was first announced (my first reaction to that news was definitely "Oh no, now Star Wars will be going down the drain..."). But, as I said, I find some of the observations here very interesting...and, oh my goodness, I think I've found my new favorite example of @Cryogenic's wonderful wordsmithing: "...primitive Darwinian signalling" (really got a kick out that, Cryo!).

 

I love this thread! It's like you guys have created this secret little niche where you can discuss TFA without being attacked if you actually say something critical about it.

Not only are they merely reskinning the ANH's designs, but they are focusing almost exclusively on the most memorable ships from the franchise, as if the film is intended more for people who only saw ANH once 35 years ago than for people who are at least somewhat familiar with the whole franchise. For instance, ANH's DS1 attack involved 2 types of rebel ship: X-wings and Y-wings. The X-wing is simply the more memorable of the two b/c Luke flew an X-wing. By ROTJ, we also get B-wings and A-wings. At that rate of increase, they should tons of different types of ships.

There were also 2 types of TIE-fighters in ANH. The regular TIE-fighter and Vader's bent-winged TIE-fighter that more resembled the bent-winged TIE-Interceptor that appeared in ROTJ. Since those bent-wings were obviously an upgrade, all the TIE's should have bent-wings 30 years after ROTJ, but do they? Nope.

This is really the case. JJ already basically made a less subtle version of ANH with Trek. Now he's gotten together with the guy who was bent out of shape that Lucas rejected such ideas as killing Han right after he's been saved, Luke walking off into the sunset as if he had the same type of persona as Clint Eastwood, Vader being horribly disfigured and nasty-looking instead of a sad fatherly figure, and Luke taking Vader's mask, putting it on, and declaring himself the new Emperor. I think what JJ has most shown me is that he's a people-pleaser. Either he wants to emulate and impress his idols or he wants to give the viewing audience some of the most unchallenging, risk-averse pieces of entertainment possible. If Disney wants him to push that the ST is going old-school with practical effects unlike the PT (even when I'm sure he knows that's a patent lie), JJ will do it b/c he wants to please his bosses at Disney. It may turn out to be the ultimate wag-the-dog scenario. JJ trying to please the fans, but the question is -- do the fans really know what will please themselves? It could end up being a film made by a committee of a million-Internet hate-posters with JJ as the guy who thinks he has the ability to channel their collective wishes. What's so crazy is the arrogance of some of these fans. So many posters feel like they know exactly what's "wrong" with Star Wars, as if they could all easily just jot out a culture changing franchise in a long weekend, but that delusional audience seems to be the main target of these teaser trailers if not the films themselves. Of course, it might not be this bad. JJ may have been playing it safe with Trek so that he could get a chance to take chances later on, but the guys at Disney marketing aren't helping to give that impression.

I think practical effects and lived-in-universe have become a marketing code-words for things PT-related. They don't want to offend the PT-fans because that's a very big group of people, and kids who loved ROTS are just coming of age now, and Star Wars' audiences can be fickle (ROTJ used to be the black sheep). At the same time, they feel that they have to reassure the vocal PT-bashers and Internet pop-culture pundits that this one will be much more like the OT than the PT because these groups are so important in shaping public opinion, and so they've created this ridiculous canard that the PT was undermined by CGI, even though it used some of the most expansive practical effects ever and even though films released by Disney that have huge popular audiences today -- The Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Iron Man, etc. -- rely on CGI far more than the PT ever did.

And that's what makes BB-8 such marketing genius, I think. People see him roll out there, and they think -- "Wow, that is a really cool feat of engineering" -- and given this practical effects narrative that's been shoved down their throats, they confuse that response with their more sincere response that what actually makes BB-8 special (practical or CGI) is that he's really a cute-looking twist on the original Artoo droid concept. The same goes with the lived-in universe. Tatooine in the TPM, Geonosis and Tatooine and the night-club district of Coruscant in ATOC all have a lived in feel, and certainly by the end of their battle on Mustafar, Obi-Wan and Anakin (in particular) have a lived-in appearance, and the Imperial forces from the OT were consistently sterile and austere.

What really bugs me is that Disney has the power to force the cast to go along with this garbage. Can Peter Mayhew (who also brought up the practical effects thing) or Daisy Ridley or John Boyega reject this narrative when Disney controls so many franchises and their careers aren't fully established? Really, what was probably the worst example of all was Kathleen Kennedy's behavior -- giving the impression that the ST was finally correcting the gender disparities in Star Wars from the past when the PT and the Clone Wars had tons of female characters, and thus, already corrected that imbalance.

I get on people's cases for rejecting all things GL-related just because they dislike some of his choices, but I fear that my prior dislike for Disney, my skepticism of JJ, and my annoyance at how they're marketing this film may cause me to become unfairly biased against the ST! (At the same time, I tend to be more likely to give things a pass the lower my expectations are, so maybe it'll work in my favor! )

I think thejeditraitor also deserves special recognition for his term "auto-hate" and AussieRebel 's re-skinning is pretty good too.

 

Wise words.

Trying, trying, trying...

That's a very nice anecdote. Thanks for sharing it.

Thank you.

And you just described the sort of reaction my brain also had to it.

I could feel the "coolness" of Han and Chewie appearing at the end and Han's hugely symbolic line, but I also felt incredibly manipulated.

Noting the manipulation, I couldn't quite have the euphoric response that others have communicated across the Internet.

It just felt, so... well, let's use your word: obvious.

Wow! Nice!

Let me clarify that all the imagery in Star Wars constitutes a sort of "primitive Darwinian signalling" (depending on how you look at it), but that moment really takes the cake for me.

It is clearly there -- and somewhat lazily, too, in my opinion -- to trigger a certain reaction: not unlike the "Happy Meal" approach of McDonald's. You could wrest some artistic significance from that final moment if you like, but I just can't look past the transparent, fan-bait part of it, personally.

It's like Han and Chewie are shown at the end, with that line, to sanctify the preceding imagery, and the whole TFA project. It's a very cheap way, in my opinion, to bless the bottled water you're trying to hawk to fans as the cure for all their ailments. It's the real "mountebank" moment of the trailer; and the entire TFA hype machine.

And unpacking my earlier comment a bit more, I intended it to also indicate that it also TFA's yin to the PT's yang. Ironically, that final moment wouldn't have any real meaning without the PT. In that regard, it is also meant to purge any residual negative feelings toward the PT, and any misgivings toward TFA and the entire sequel trilogy project; as if Disney are now in the exorcism business/racket.

Above all else, it's a way for Disney to vouch to fans that the company is offering something more to their collective liking: the serving up of recognizable tropes, for the purposes of generating $$$, has taken precedence over risk-taking and experimentation, which might harm initial profit margins. I mean, it's America, where the Almighty Dollar is king.

And that moment is nifty and condensed enough (as intended), so that the movie then effectively promotes itself. The fans pass it around like they would snowman/Santa Claus imagery at Christmas. Everyone is then aware that TFA is a hot item -- a cultural cathexis; an event -- which they must join others in experiencing; something as basic as apple pie; something they can't miss out on.

Far too much calculation and manipulation of basic fan sentiment (in the pursuit of profit); for my tastes, anyway.


EDIT: Just saw your post, darth ladnar:

Rumbled!

You made some very good points.

J.J. is a "people pleaser" -- yes, agreed.

And I also like, in particular, what you had to say about the ships.

Such reductionism is also evident in his "Star Trek" movies.

So not too enthused at the present moment. Trying not to "hate"; but I'm relatively unmoved.

 

I actually agree about the trailer being manipulative, to trigger reactions. In fact, I'm sure the whole movie will be like that. So I completely understand why you and other fans are unhappy and unenthused.

But, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. This movie is going to play on OT nostalgia, play on our impressions of what classic Star Wars is. It's going to be full of moments designed solely to spark a fan reaction.

Now, I understand 100% why some people would see that as bad. But I will agree to disagree - based on my own emotions watching the trailer, and the emotions of all the other fans who watched it. Our emotions are real.

I'm well aware that I'm falling victim to Darwinian signalling (wish I came up with that ^^) but I'm having a damn good time, and I feel like that's the important thing. I view this akin to a love letter to classic Star Wars from one fan to another. We're in this to revel in the fun and to an extent our own fan-ness. I see that as being something special in itself.

 

I would add that in their zeal to use this line to give emotional resonance to the trailer and distance the film from the PT they are probably diluting the effect of the line when it's delivered in the actual film, taking a moment that probably comes across as sincere since Han is returning to a ship that was once was his home and re-purposing it to top off a sequence of "modernized" images mostly from ANH that becomes so obvious in its intent that the line comes to feel redundant and like a cynical marketing ploy at the same time. (In other words, I didn't like it.)

While I'm being very critical of the trailer, I understand where you're coming from. There's a part of fandom that almost has a quality of religious worship, especially Star Wars fandom that has its own quasi-religion within it. Waiting in line with other fans for hours before a midnight screening is like a ritual, and religions have some fun rituals. People get excited about Christmas, each country has its own rituals for how it celebrates Christmas, oftentimes we get presents that we don't really want or need, but we like the ritual of giving presents and getting presents, of putting up stockings, stuff like that.

But some of us don't want the old stuff. We want to go in new directions, and for those of us who want some nostalgia, I think where some of us have a problem is that we sort feel like Charlie Brown in the Charlie Brown Christmas special. We don't want to feel like our emotions and rituals are being manipulated by corporations for profit. Star Wars has always had a naive sincerity about it, and some of what Disney is doing feels the exact opposite, so they are taking something that should be sincere -- Han reuniting with the Falcon after decades apart -- and using we're home as coded language to mean we've left those awful PT years behind. I think when you realize what they are trying to do that calculated re-purposing of the scene undermines what should feel nice.

 

The OT Big 3 haven't been seen on screen in over 30 years. They are part of the new movies. The PT/TCW generation probably doesn't have as much exposure with them. Is it really a crime to want to focus on them for a bit?

 

^Yeah, that's pretty much how I read it, too. I suppose if one were trying to be more charitable (I guess some would say "less cynical"), the "We're home" could be read as an attempt to more broadly evoke celebratory feelings about SW in general (in the sense of SW returning to theaters as a brand-new release for the first time in 10 years), but I couldn't help but see it as (not-so-coded) message designed to convey that SW has "returned" to something that has been "missing" since the OT. (And I'm certainly aware that there is a segment of fans that do feel that way, so obviously that's the intended audience for that "message.")

On a related note, I've been watching some of the Celebration coverage on YouTube, and it seems a little sad to me to hear individuals like Peter Mayhew emphasizing how the new film is going "backwards" to the "proper" (his exact words) way of filmmaking. Even if one genuinely prefers aspects of the OT aesthetic (which is fine), it just seems sad to see people who worked with and for GL so easily seem to completely dismiss half of the SW saga as not "proper" examples of filmmaking. As if PT-era GL was some kind of novice or bumbling film student who had absolutely no idea what he was doing, visually speaking... (Again, I'm not saying that it's invalid for people to subjectively prefer one trilogy to another, but the gist and tone of a number of comments I've seen from Celebration seem to go beyond such simple expressions of preference.)

Edit: I appreciate your comments, smoothkaz, and I share a lot of those feelings myself. Like I said above, I enjoyed both teasers and am looking forward to seeing the film. I also just enjoy analyzing some of the apparent marketing "rhetoric" that is going on.

 

Am I the only one who saw the "We're home" scene as Han and Chewie just returning to the Falcon and nothing else?

 

I saw it as that in-universe but OOU it's a selling ploy.

 

Trailers ARE selling ploys and 'Look, your favourite characters are back,' has always been staple trailer fodder for SW movies.

 

It's no fluke Ford is the key one we *know* in that one either. Yet, I still consider what they're doing in poor taste.

 

I think the PT generation wants these movies to fail. They are afraid because TFA will be better received than the PT, and they cannot handle the fact that the OT is back at the forefront.

 

I totally get what you're saying. Like I said, I also just find it interesting to analyze stuff like that. Particularly when I noticed I wasn't having the ecstatic reactions to that moment that have been widely reported. Again, to clarify, my reaction to the moment wasn't really "negative" (I have been a HUGE fan of Harrison/Han since childhood!)--I just wasn't carried away like a lot of folks.

Well, I grew up with the OT (I'm in my mid-40s), so I guess I'm not part of the "PT generation" as it is usually defined. However, I enjoy all six movies. Just speaking for myself, I'm hoping to enjoy TFA, too.

 

I think the planets are by far the most underwhelming thing from the TFA teasers.
We've got... Tatooine-that's-not-Tatooine, Hoth-that's-not-Hoth, Earth???

As for the last one, most of the planets in the SW movies resemble earth to one degree or another. It's only natural. Endor (it's just a forest moon) and Naboo being the ones with the biggest makeup resembling Earth. But there's something about the Theed hangars that give Naboo it's identity. (Similarly to how the Geonosian arena's architecture and the planet's color palette immediately let you know you're on a desert planet that's not Tatooine.)
And then there's the underwater Gungan city of course... Atlantis in space!

Hopefully that new water planet has some distinctive features like those because so far it just looks like Earth.

I want to see planets that push the boundaries... like Utapau, Felucia, Kamino, and Cato Neomoidia.

I mean, CATO FRICKIN' NEIMOIDIA though. Bridge cities?!


* that last image is from The Clone Wars, but you get the picture.

Are they holding off the more risky and newer aspects of the new films till Ep 8 or are they just being plain lazy?

 

I think it's plain-jane by design, as the first of a trilogy. It has to have something to build towards.

 

I, and I am sure majority of other PT fans, certainly do not want the new films to fail. I'm not sure where you're getting that vibe quite frankly. To be more precise, I am a saga fan myself (who does prefer the PT/TCW era), so the last thing I want is for any of the future films to fail. That being said, I do have my fair share of criticisms for regarding the teasers for TFA and many of them have already been address by other users in this thread. I really hope the ST tries to do their own thing and not rely on the OT era too much.

 

I bet they are some people (a minority of people) who feel that way, especially those who feel that the Saga had a proper ending with ROTJ and those who think that anything that doesn't come from GL isn't real Star Wars.

I don't feel that way, but I admit that I have slightly mixed feelings about it. I don't like what JJ did with Trek, I don't like the praise JJ got for Trek, I don't like that he was willing to re-use a beloved scene from Wrath of Khan even though he must've known that a lot of long time fans would take offense at that, and beyond that, there's something that just rubs me the wrong way about him. Maybe he's a great guy, but he leaves a bad impression with me for some reason. I also live in Florida, so I'm quite aware of the Disney corporation, and I don't like what they've done with Disney's legacy, or ABC news, or Nightline, or ESPN, or ESPN's support of college sports, or how they've misrepresented facts about GL. So, yeah, it does make it a little harder to get excited about a film when you don't like a lot of the principle people involved with making it. (Thankfully, Rian Johnson is taking over Ep. 8)

I guess I'm somewhat in the same position as those who are mad at GL for the special editions changes and his refusal to release OOOT versions. I think some of those fans went into the PT already annoyed at GL for the SE, and it hurt their experience. I hope this stuff doesn't hurt my experience, but we all carry unconscious feelings with us. All I can say is that my desire for another good Star Wars film greatly exceeds my desire to see JJ get a black mark on his directorial resume or Disney's profit margins diminished by 2%.

 

I hear your view; and it's well-articulated.

I'd simply prefer a greater display of imagination. While all the Star Wars movies trade on nostalgia, none do it to the ridiculous extent that TFA appears to.

And none have employed marketing this wanton, this transparent.

I can't get fired up and revel in "fun" and nostalgia trips alone. That does seem to be Abrams' specialty, but I find it hollow and pointless.

George's movies are wildly entertaining and actually tell you something about human consciousness: the joys and the perils of being awake and alive; and also the dangers of being half-asleep and lacking mindfulness. And they all fit together in a beautiful tapestry, with various interlocking themes, motifs, call-backs, twisted meanings, and other esoteric nuances. They have a density and a diligence about them that is quite formidable.

TFA looks and sounds so far removed from that that it seriously tears into the fabric and damages the whole idea of a generational saga where the same family is looked at in three movements, three configurations. Now, it seems, the "ride" is more important; the sweaty humanity; the feeling. Feeling being place above reason is part of Anakin's downfall. And now we have a movie installment -- and, theoretically, an entire trilogy -- built around that very concept.

Wanting to regress into an elapsed past is quite neurotic; if human. It shows an unwillingness on the part of people to grow up, move on, and learn from their former experiences. To accept and integrate change. Which seems to all the more go against the basic themes of the saga and the sort of ideas Lucas originally wanted to explore in his sequel trilogy; bringing the existing trilogies to ecstatic fulfilment.

I'm not trying to chip away at anyone here. I'm commenting on the aesthetic qualities this trailer seems boxed into. It panders a lot and some people like that; love it, even. The trip to them takes precedence over all else. And you're right that there is something rather interesting about that; about what TFA represents. But I personally need more nourishment from this set of films than TFA looks capable or willing to offer.

Good observation. That went through my mind, as well.

I sense that most people aren't going to care, though. Han being there overrides all else.

So... it doesn't matter that the moment is wasted, really. Not from that POV.

At least Harrison looks really sharp for his age and is acting his ass off in that moment; I'll give the little snippet that much.

Had to bold that. Couldn't agree more.

It's the first time I can recall that the series has really been turned in on itself and used to express a loaded sentiment that implicitly slams an entire set of its own movies.

Someone may well point out that Star Wars contains many gags where it is mocking itself in some way, or that it full of "return" memes and riffs on the idea of things happening in circles. True enough.

The trailer gives that moment an unavoidable inflection, though. A full-view, partisan bash at the PT, to completely reel the target audience in: expert shooting. It's kinda funny that Chewie is holding his crossbow in that moment, actually.

Those attitudes are annoying. They only gave the Celebration panel -- to me -- more the feeling of a Nuremberg Rally.

The Dark Side of love is hate. Encoded into TFA and the marketing is an implicit shunning and shaming of the prequel trilogy era.

It isn't merely an honest-to-goodness celebration of what is "good" about TFA; what new and interesting ideas are being brought to the Star Wars universe.

No, the whole spectacle of it is a forum for demagoguery, complete with very obvious signage and signification that symbolizes the rightfulness of the whole project; even down to a charity drive that is mentioned which makes the whole endeavour seem implicitly beneficent and therefore beyond criticism ($6 million was raised for needy children by a company with profits in the billions; which draws the bulk of its profits from appealing directly to children? -- and how many millions more has George Lucas given or pledged directly to improving education?).

People have different opinions about these things, naturally; but it makes me a little sick inside. The Bible says that there is safety in the multitude. There's also danger in the multitude. It is easier to lose one's critical faculties when you're caught up in a wave of hysteria and collectively influenced to think and feel a certain way. When everything is brought in front of you and pronounced as the "The Greatest Thing Ever!" -- and that you must be mentally deficient if you think otherwise. Counter-opinions aren't allowed. Everyone must venerate the great leader and give themselves to the movement.

Funny that the new teaser features a shot of storm troopers amassed in a setting that looks straight out of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. They use harsh, violent crimson in the trailer, situating the troopers in a frigid outdoor environment. Invert these things and you have the Celebration panel. The fascistic hankerings of human beings in big settings have simply being steered in a new direction -- from conquest to capitalism (conquest by other means).

I want Star Wars to prosper -- in the right way.

I don't think this is it, personally. Not so far, anyway.

 

I agree with your last sentiment but I have a hunch not on the particulars.