Prequel Script Writing quality: The whole debate

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darth_Pseudomorph, Jun 5, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    OHHH, once again, we have misconcieved the word "fault." Ouch. Sucks to be stupid doesn't it? Yeah. JJB is not a FAULT. He is there for a reason. He is a retarded nutcase for a reason. He is annoying for a reason. Lucas knows this, and to be quite honest...JJB is possibly one of the most well handled characters in Star Wars. If we LIKED JJB, then Lucas failed. We are not supposed to.

    C-3PO was annoying in TESB but he didn't bring the whole movie down with him...and he managed to do and say some things that were actually funny.

    People make subjective evaluations of characters based on personal preferences all the time but when you have a character that is almost universally loathed such as Jar Jar Binks it becomes a very real problem. When a character is so intrusive, distracting, and absurd that it compromises an audience' ability to enjoy the movie it does indeed become a flaw.

    I seriously doubt Lucas created a character knowing ahead of time that it would cause such a severe, visceral, negative reaction in his audience.

    Jar Jar Binks "is" a fault.
  2. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    On the issue of Anakin and the control ship.

    I always thought it would've been nice if George had shown Anakin progress from a kid to a young adult in episode I. This would've handled the "what to do with Anakin" problem very nicely.

    The problem, as I'm sure a lot of people are aware, is that George basically had Anakin blow up the control ship because he needed to show him doing something...some way of demonstrating his abilities...after all he is the main character. The problem with the way George handled it is that it looks hokey and far-fetched for an 8-year-old kid without any formal training (jedi, naboo starfighter, etc.) to do all the things he did at the end of episode I. Even if Anakin had been an adult the control ship sequence would've been repetitive at the least...it had already been done twice before. George may have known that much of the audience would be turned off by the whole control ship scenario but he did it anyway because it was preferable to having Anakin stand on the sidelines. Realistically it would've made much more sense if Qui-Gon had kept Anakin back on Coruscant to keep him out of danger during the Battle of Naboo...but the audience would've been like "the kid didn't do anything...what a waste." I think this might have been a conumdrum for Lucas. He knew there would be problems inherent with depicting Anakin as a kid and he picked the best compromise that he could find. The problem is it just didn't work for a lot of people.

    A Not-So-Simple but effective way of dealing with conumdrum of "What To Do With Anakin Because He's A Kid" IMO would be to split Episode I into two halves. Quite simply, the first half would deal with Anakin's childhood and the discovery of him by the Jedi and the second half would deal him as a beginning apprentice to Obi-Wan. The problem with this kind of scenario is that it would've called for a much more sprawling storyline and consequently more running time...but it would've seemed more like an epic. With all the storytelling that needed to take place in episode I I think a 2 hour and 15 minute running time was very limiting.

    The two parts scenario would've worked better in establishing a relationship with Anakin and Obi-Wan earlier on. It also could've theoretically solved the age discrepency between Anakin and Padme. One of the reasons George introduced Padme as a young adult to begin with was to establish her as a strong, crusading type of character early on. Either that or George has a thing for older women ;)

    There's much more that could be said here of course. It's always been difficult for me to get over the fact that Anakin doesn't get to weild a light saber in episode I.

    I look forward to hearing everyone's responses :)
  3. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    DARTHT GEIST you have a lto of nerve thinking that you can abuse LUCAS'S script like that dont you have any artistic respect for the man who MADE Star Wars in teh FIRST PLACE!!! I hate all these peoople who think they ar e bettr than Gorego Lucas and hwo are tryign to reqwrute the movise to their asmall minded persepticves with no thanmks at all. WHa ta buynch of arragance!! Please leaves it to Lucsas to take us to a Galazy far far away!!!! Sheessh
  4. darth_melvin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 2
    The romantic dialogue in AOTC was kind of like sand. It was coarse and irritating. Not like Han and Leia?s, which was smooth. Sitting through it, I was in agony, and the more I see it, the worse it gets. It made my stomach turn over, my mouth go dry. I feel dizzy. I can?t breathe. I am haunted by the dialogue that Lucas should never have given us. My heart is beating, hoping that these lines would not become a prequel scar. The stilted prose is in my very soul, tormenting me. What can we do, George? We will do anything you ask?

    BUT PLEASE HIRE LAWRENCE KASDAN (OR EQUIVALENT) TO WRITE THE SCRIPT!

    (I put this in love story thread, but this may be more appropriate (there isn't an official script thread on the list))

  5. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    DARTHT GEIST you have a lto of nerve thinking that you can abuse LUCAS'S script like that dont you have any artistic respect for the man who MADE Star Wars in teh FIRST PLACE!!! I hate all these peoople who think they ar e bettr than Gorego Lucas and hwo are tryign to reqwrute the movise to their asmall minded persepticves with no thanmks at all. WHa ta buynch of arragance!! Please leaves it to Lucsas to take us to a Galazy far far away!!!! Sheessh

    Spelling helps.

    People can say or do whatever they choose, particularly if they do so in an intelligent matter, which Darth Geist always has. No one (particularly him) has elevated themselves above Lucas. People can offer their opinions for what they think might have worked better.
  6. darth_melvin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 2
    >>you have a lto of nerve thinking that you can abuse LUCAS'S script like that dont you have any artistic respect for the man who MADE Star Wars in teh FIRST PLACE!!! I hate all these peoople who think they ar e bettr than Gorego Lucas and hwo are tryign to reqwrute the movise to their asmall minded persepticves with no thanmks at all. WHa ta buynch of arragance!! Please leaves it to Lucsas to take us to a Galazy far far away!!!! Sheessh >>

    He's right. Nobodyq can reqwrute bettur than Lookus.

    (I think we only speak Basic in this forum)
  7. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    hahahahahahaha tokyo!
  8. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    I always find it funny when people paraphrase the dialogue from the prequels when they're arguing how bad it is :)
  9. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Jar Jar Binks "is" a fault.

    Yeah, he is such a fault. SUCH a fault, in fact, that his character worked perfectly for pushing along the story. Lucas knew since day one that a stupid character would give Palpatine power. It was even hinted at in the backstories that Lucas wrote in order to help him write the originals.

    I'd give an arm and a leg to find it for proof. Heck, I don't even need proof; some of you probably know about it. Lucas made JJB stupid for a reason. People thought he was stupid, including myself. Lucas succeeded in making the stupid character stupid, so how anyone sees JJB as a flaw is way beyond me.
  10. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I hope someone eventually addresses my ideas for a solution to the droid control ship issue :(

    Not that I'd jump off a bridge if anyone didn't :)


    Lucas made JJB stupid for a reason. People thought he was stupid, including myself. Lucas succeeded in making the stupid character stupid, so how anyone sees JJB as a flaw is way beyond me.

    To imply that Lucas' intention with Jar Jar was to create a "stupid" character is an over-simplification and highly assumptive. How do you know what Lucas' intention was? Whatever his attention was I'd like to see you prove that it was to distress a great majority of his adult audience.

    Pooja, the fact of the matter is there were plenty of other schemes Lucas could've invented for Palpatine's creation of the empire. Palpatine didn't "have" to have Jar Jar to enact his emergency powers at all. Having a "stupid" character is one thing but having such an annoying character is another. Any time you have a character that offends more than 90 percent of an adult audience it's it becomes a serious issue by nature...no matter how you slice it. There's no real logic in your defense of Jar Jar.

    You sound every bit like someone who is determined to get the most out of Star Wars that he/she possibly can.

    Just remember...it's ok to hate Jar Jar if that's what you really feel :)

    It's ok to question George Lucas' choices when they are "questionable." :)
  11. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    I think some of the critics of the dialog in general and the love scene dialog in particular are missing the point. Anakin isn't a smooth talking wise cracking player from the WB or or some teen comedy. He's a completly inexpericed kid infatuated with the only girl he's ever met, raised by emotionless warriors. Of course he's going to sound like a dork. It's the same thing with the people who have a problem with TPM Anakin saying "Yippie". He's nine! Nine year olds don't take like the kid from the 'Sixth Sense' or 'Home Alone'. They talk like nine year olds. So if anything the dialog was too realistic for a lot of you.

  12. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I'm not buying it, Padme.

    One of the things that Rick McCullum said around the time of the special editions was that "it's going to be very painful to watch Anakin go through his trials and eventually fall from grace."

    How is it going to be painful for the audience to see Anakin's situation deteriorate if they don't like him, admire him, or respect him...or a combination of the three?

    This is why in IMO (and I'm not alone on this...) it would've been much better if George had portrayed a more gradual decline for Anakin. Give the audience time to warm up to Anakin and then show everything go to hell. As it is people have been turned off by Ani because George has him whining and pining for Padme the minute he makes his entrance.

    Another valid point IMO is that it is counter-intuitive that Anakin would be such a basket case and still be allowed to train as a Jedi.
  13. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    To imply that Lucas' intention with Jar Jar was to create a "stupid" character is an over-simplification and highly assumptive. How do you know what Lucas' intention was? Whatever his attention was I'd like to see you prove that it was to distress a great majority of his adult audience.

    How do I know?

    Uh...

    ...duh?

    You sound every bit like someone who is determined to get the most out of Star Wars that he/she possibly can.

    Do I now? Cool. Compliment of the day. Sir, did it ever occur to you that maybe, just -MAYBE- that yes, I am trying to get the most out of it?

    And you know what?

    So far, it's been a blast. Sucks to be you people who can't enjoy it.

    Just remember...it's ok to hate Jar Jar if that's what you really feel

    Er...no? I don't LOVE JJB but he didn't ruin a thing for me. I'm not that gullible. It takes a bit more than that to bring my opinion down. If that were the case, I'd totally hate Empire Strikes Back because of 3P0's constant blabbering. I'd hate Return of the Jedi because of all the Ewoks. Jeez...I didn't know one character could ruin a movie...but in the world of critics and people who only seem to watch movies for dialogue and acting...anything's possible.

    It's ok to question George Lucas' choices when they are "questionable."

    Yes. And in fact when Lucas does something bad enough to actually complain about, we'll talk.
  14. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Kryatt_Dragon ---

    "If they don't like him, admire him, or respect him..."

    Actually I think it will be enough if people understand him. And I think we do. McCallum has been right so far, imo. Personally I find the stuff Anakin goes through in AOTC really painful to watch. The entire Tatooine sequence is terrifying, and one of the best written, directed and acted sequences in the entire Star Wars Saga.
  15. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    The entire Tatooine sequence is terrifying, and one of the best written, directed and acted sequences in the entire Star Wars Saga.

    Even the music, right when their ship arrives near the Lars homestead, starts out with that feeling that something bad is about to happen. That calm before the storm approach.

    Brilliant. Too bad the bashers will never get to enjoy this.
  16. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    MEANWHILE, AT TOKYOXTREME'S HOUSE:


    Boo-hoo-hoo!!! I can't enjoy The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones like Pooja did!! All because I can't get over my stupid "taste reflex" and embrace a goofy Scrappy-Doo circa 1999. It sucks to be me! IT SUCKS TO BE ME!!!! :( :_|

    Star Wars is DEAD DEAD DEAD!!!

    BANG!!

    [falls dead]
  17. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Thanks, KnightWriter and darth_melvin, but I'm pretty sure Tokyo was joking.


    :)
  18. pandawan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 1
    I agree with those who've said that Anakin's attempts at seduction make us wince because they are the naive self-indulgent and ineffectual rantings of an infatuated teenager...of course they'd make us uncomfortable.

    But I also agree that there was a lot that the director could have done to make us clear on that point--to, as others have also commented, make us find Anakin at least a little endearing in his efforts, so we'd understand both his obsession with Padme and understand that he's vulnerable and young and inexperienced. Then we wouldn't have winced at the incredibly tacky words he utters as a 'fault' of the script but rather as what the scriptwriter intended to convey.

    All it would have taken perhaps was a little touch here and there, akin to what the PhantomEditor guy mentioned in his complaints about Lucas' direction ....he says that a simple shot of a hand reaching for another can convey more than all that tacky dialog...it could be that the script would have worked fine with a little more finesse in the acting/directing...could have been that a tiny bit of scriptwork would have done it.

    I agree also that the Anakin-in-torment on Tatooine scenes are really good...HERE he's showing, because the script more clearly supports it in this spot, the vulnerability and inner torment that could make us feel for him..in the love scenes on the couch he doesn't have the room to do so, nor is the script very supportive of it.

    I think one can believe that Lucas is generally brilliant, *and* that at points his scripting can be in need of some work.
    I look forward mightlly to Episode III! I hope that there is a lot of that movie that isn't so dominated by big digital effects scenes, so he can focus more on the characters.

  19. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    How do I know?

    Uh...

    ...duh?


    lol...very eloquent vacuous response.

    Do I now? Cool. Compliment of the day. Sir, did it ever occur to you that maybe, just -MAYBE- that yes, I am trying to get the most out of it?

    Which goes to my point that if one has to try too hard...there's something wrong. All I can say is that you must've been trying pretty hard not to let Jar Jar get in the way :)

    Er...no? I don't LOVE JJB but he didn't ruin a thing for me. I'm not that gullible. It takes a bit more than that to bring my opinion down. If that were the case, I'd totally hate Empire Strikes Back because of 3P0's constant blabbering. I'd hate Return of the Jedi because of all the Ewoks. Jeez...I didn't know one character could ruin a movie...but in the world of critics and people who only seem to watch movies for dialogue and acting...anything's possible.

    First of all I must admit that it's futile to argue with anyone who actually thinks C-3PO is on the same tier as Jar Jar Binks in the annoyance category. Second, I don't think I ever said that Jar Jar Binks was the "only problem". IMO AOTC demonstrates perfectly the flaws TPM would've had minus Jar Jar and queen Amidala. Third, I don't actually think the prequels have really bad acting and screenwriting in the technical sense...it's really more a problem with editing, directing, lack of emotional impact, etc. Technically a screenplay can be good and still be a crashing bore.

    Yes. And in fact when Lucas does something bad enough to actually complain about, we'll talk.

    ...and what would merit a "complaint" on your part?
  20. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Bad storytelling, vomit inducing dialogue and acting...I don't know. I just know that I think Star Wars doesn't have bad storytelling and putrid dialogue.

    I don't know, okay, I just don't know. I know that I love the movies and I just cannot begin to understand the problems some of you have with the prequels.

    Which goes to my point that if one has to try too hard...there's something wrong. All I can say is that you must've been trying pretty hard not to let Jar Jar get in the way

    I haven't put forth any effort to love the prequels. None. And Jar Jar gave me another character in the SW saga to enjoy. I thought he was rather humorous IN PARTS and his character, so far, has been kinda neat, in my eyes. And don't EVEN begin to flame me for saying that, because that would just make you look stupid.

    And yes, if Jar Jar is annoying, so is 3P0. IMO.

    I'm not trying to make enemies with any of you, not even you, Kryatt. I'd just like to understand the complaints you people have...because I frankly, I don't see the originals being any better than the prequels.
  21. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    I haven't put forth any effort to love the prequels. None. And Jar Jar gave me another character in the SW saga to enjoy. I thought he was rather humorous IN PARTS and his character, so far, has been kinda neat, in my eyes. And don't EVEN begin to flame me for saying that, because that would just make you look stupid.

    I think I flamed you, Pooja, because of the way you came across in one of your posts. At any rate I shouldn't do that and I apologize. I won't flame you but if you or anyone else is going to enter into a debate about screenwriting or any other aspect of the prequels vs. the original trilogy you have to acknowledge other's opinions. I'm glad you liked the prequels. I envy anyone who did to tell you the truth. I can acknowledge that Jar Jar is good for some people but he simply doesn't work for a majority. The main complaint about the prequels stems from the fact that they simply failed to pull in what could be considered a "good" percentage of the total star wars fan base. Now whether you're a fan of the prequels or not anyone who intends to enter into an honest debate about the prequels vs. the original trilogy has to acknowledge this fact. Furthermore, if I can be happy for people who do like the prequels (and I am) then I think it's fair that those people can try to appreciate some of the criticisms that I might have about the prequels...and perhaps acknowledge that some of them are legitimate.

    That's it in a nutshell

    ...peace
  22. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    there are vast differences between the annoyingness of jar jar and the annoyingness of 3PO.

    first... jar jar is annoying because he is stupid and clumsy... very unsophisticated humor IMO. 3PO (OT only) is fussy and cowardly... he complains about almost everything, always brings attention to the seriousness of the situation in a humorous way "the odds of us surviving...." also alot of 3POs humor comes from his interaction with R2 in the OT. jar jar steps in poop and hurts himself and just clods his way through everything.

    tell me what you think so far so we can maybe get somewhere with this.
  23. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Likeable Anakin was in TPM. You know, the film all you bashers dismissed as pointless. Now we're onto arrogant Anakin, on the verge of becoming evil Anakin.
  24. Kryatt_Dragon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    Running out of steam this thread is :(
  25. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    I'll try to re-steam it... ;)

    The chasm between those who like a new SW movie and those who don't is always growing. It started the day people saw TESB. Did everyone love that one? Nope. Some fans (and Mark Hamill, btw) thought it to be too dark and serious and not as fun as the original. I recently found a review of it in the archives of Norway's biggest newspaper, and they totally trashed it. For bad writing, bad acting, no emotion, wooden dialogue, and an annoying muppet who speaks of religious BS.

    The times haven't changed much.

    My point is that it once ANOTHER movie is out, some will like it and some won't. Then when THE THIRD film comes out, some of those who liked number 2 will like and some won't, and it's likely that those who didn't like number 2 won't like number 3 either. And thus the chasm grows film by film.

    I think it's inevitable.

    With just one film out, there are obviously no SW fans who WON'T like it, 'cause anyone who likes it is a SW fan and those who don't aren't. Once the second one is out, it's not that simple anymore. And the arguing starts.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.