main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Prequel Script Writing quality: The whole debate

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by Darth_Pseudomorph, Jun 5, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    "You know what's even wackier about that guy? 2,482 posts... That's 2482 times that he's taken his time to express his utter disgust for the prequels... You ask me - this boy is screaming for therapy..."

    After 3 1/2 years I'm finally starting to emerge as a celebrity. :)

    I've taken the time here to express a lot of positive things about AOTC, including the fact that it has, hands down, the best, most coherent underlying story of the saga, with the exception of ANH. It's visually engaging. There is some good acting scattered throughout. The CG effects are incredible and, in my humble opinion, uniformly convincing and awe-inspiring.

    But the dialogue just stinks. I laugh every time someone mentions "good job" as a quotable line from AOTC. That's how deep people are digging to try to find something original, memorable, and good in this movie's script.
     
  2. TokyoXtreme

    TokyoXtreme Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2001
    What different actors? Lando and The emporor? That's about the only other 'important' actors that were added to the movies...

    I didn't say anything about actors. Read the post more carefully next time Professor.

    So how long should it be developed for? 5-6 years? so we can wait 10 years between movies? What about the sequesls to the Matrix? Were their scripts developed log enogugh...

    Could have been developed in less than half the time if Lucas used an editor. A screenplay editor, of course.

    But that was the basis of the prequels...

    Yes, and they needed to be strengthened and developed.

    but you people are too used to the 'crumbled' look from the OT that you can't handle this full vibrant look of the PT...

    If you are referring to the vehicle / mechanical designs, most of the new ones are pretty stupid. Now that they are inserted into the OT via the special editions, the designs are part of the OT. That rickshaw is the worst yet. I have new respect for Darth Vader's TIE Fighter and the Calamari cruiser.

    Again - take off your glasses of nostalgia, and take these movies for what they are - if you all think that the prequels are not worth your time - don't watch them, don't discuss them - move on with your lives...

    This argument is the most often repeated reply on this forum, yet it has absolutely no basis in reality. Nostalgia if anything, would make the OT become progressively worse. Not better!

    On this topic of nostalgia, I'd like to add that I don't even remember seeing the OT in the theater (aside from ROTJ). The last time I saw the original ESB was on laserdisc about 7 years ago. At first I was cynical because I hadn't seen it since 1984, and I thought it was just nostalgiac kitsch (and kitsch was all the rage in the early 90s). But after another viewing, in lovely widescreen, I was amazed at how completely solid the film is on all levels. Visceral and emotional. Spectacular art design.

    Of course, these prequels can be enjoyed on other levels besides the level of "artwork". Naturally! Why else would a grown adult like me waste his time on childrens' films?Although, as a child, I would have despised TPM just as I hated Krull and Ice Pirates.
     
  3. revolution

    revolution Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Telemachos wrote:
    >The whole debate classixboy, there are things a novel can get
    >away with that a movie can't, IMHO. A novel is read at the reader's
    >convenience -- you can take any amount of time you want to explore
    >side threads, little tributaries in the river of your story, etc.
    >
    I agree. I read somewhere that a rough estimate is to consider one page of text equal to about one minute of screen time. Consider that prior to the release of LOTR, there were a number of people arguing for the full inclusion of Tom Bombadil in the film. They even had a petition in this regard. Hey - Tom Bombadil is a fine side route in the book, which has over a thousand pages and can meander about. But it would have been ridiculous to try and make the Bombadil chapters work in a film that was already over three hours long. I think the originators of this petition wanted nothing more than a point by point LOTR travelogue movie - so they could sit in the theater and relay every little item that was about to happen from the written page. Personally I wanted the flavor and central story of LOTR, but not the exact book - I already have the book. Film is a different medium than the written word and needs to be treated that way. Film has it's plusses and minuses like anything else, and the main thing when relaying a story with film is to play to the pluses.
     
  4. prof_frink

    prof_frink Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 1999
    you have quoted someone, used yellow to highlight their post, yet completely misread what they said. "Different DIRECTORS, different WRITERS" not different actors.

    I was wrong there - I thought I saw actors.. my bad... I take that passage back then - I still stand by the rest of my arguments...

    I still don't see how the dialogue is better and/or worse than the originals... It's all the same to me...

    If you are referring to the vehicle / mechanical designs, most of the new ones are pretty stupid.

    Now we're arguing aesthetics? Fine you think they are stupid - how am I supposed to counter argue that?

    This argument is the most often repeated reply on this forum, yet it has absolutely no basis in reality.

    No basis in reality? How about I give you a few 'real life' examples...

    1. I didn't enjoy the LOTR movie - and god knows there are plenty of message boards out there discusing that movie - you won't find me there complaining about all the reasons that I didn't enjoy that movie. I chalk it up to personal preference, and move on to other things.

    2. I've had nothing but bad experiences with cars from Chrysler - am I going to sepnd my time crusading against them for better quality - no, I found a car of better quality, and have been happier since...

    And so the point remains - if you are not enjoying these prequels, don't watch them - all your complaining won't change a thing - they are what they are. You're OT movies are just a VCR away, put those in, enjoy them and ignore the PT...

     
  5. Gilgamesh2

    Gilgamesh2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2001
    Complaints about JarJar led to some changes, no doubt.
     
  6. Rikalonius

    Rikalonius Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    All three Matrix scripts may have not been written all at once. That is becaause no one knew if there would be a second one. But now that they have anounced two more, they better write the whole thing at once, or they are as stupid as GL.

    He knew in 1979 that if he was ever going to make the prequals, then he was going to have to make three. Three shall be the number counted. Though shalt make not just one, nor will thy make two unless in three years followed by three.

    So for roughly 20 years GL could have been hashing out the story. Instead he has been flying by the seat of his pants. According to Rick Mac, the third screenplay hasn't even been written. In an interview he said.
    "George will begin work on the script as soon as AOTC opens." This is utter foolishness in my opinion. It just goes to show how GL treats us SW fans who have kept the torch burning for 20 years like Lemmings.

     
  7. jedi-jeff

    jedi-jeff Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    And so the point remains - if you are not enjoying these prequels, don't watch them - all your complaining won't change a thing - they are what they are. You're OT movies are just a VCR away, put those in, enjoy them and ignore the PT...


    I have been trying to get the prequel bashers to address this very question.
    As result, I do not take their criticisms very seriously. These bashers just seem bitter and they think that if you do not agree with them then you are the lap-dog of George Lucas.
     
  8. augusto

    augusto Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    >> It just goes to show how GL treats us SW fans who have kept the torch burning for 20 years like Lemmings.

    What a pompous statement. If you feel abused, stop acting like the battered wife that won't leave her husband and call the police and leave the house.

    He has had the outlines of the movies ready a long time ago, which is much much more "sagas" out there (Planet of the Apes, Superman, Spiderman, Batman, ...) with the obvious exception being LOTR.
     
  9. classixboy

    classixboy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    TokyoXtreme: How do you define criticism? In an earlier post you defended professional criticism and asked rhetorically, "Where else can one find in-depth analysis and discussion of art[?]" Yet in the same post you assert that a critic's "reliability" isn't at all important.

    I take it that you believe good criticism is more than just fault-finding, that in fact a critic's job is to engage deeply enough with a text (or film, or work of art) so that he/she might produce an estimation of the work's qualities. As interesting as criticism can be, it does *not* exist solely as an end in and of itself. Professional criticism especially exists also to inform a reading public about the relative merits of a work of art. I am not ashamed to say that I have at one time or another watched a movie solely because I had read a rave review. And I have also avoided movies for which I have read very negative reviews. I know that I am not alone in this. If you are so unaffected by popular culture that you pay movie reviews no regard, then I salute you. Sadly we cannot all be so unmoved by critical voices. One hopes that the professional critic will be sufficiently engaged with the work of art to produce a persuasive assessment or analysis. Reliability therefore has much to do with good criticism. Many people on this board however are beginning to question the reliability of some professional critics whose assessments of AOTC seem unfounded and to have been produced without a true engagement in the film. Once again we are reminded that our own impressions of the film are the ones that are most important.

    Could you also please explain your statement that "Nostalgia if anything, would make the OT become progressively worse. Not better!" This does not make sense to me.
     
  10. Fearless_Leader

    Fearless_Leader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 14, 2001
    I can sum this up in one sentence.

    "The Prequels are experiencing the same thing Star Trek the Next Generation went through."

    Think about it. The Next Generation, when it first came out, did not fare well at all. There was no "Kirk" character in the new cast. The critics blasted it as inferior to the original (even though if you rewatch the original episodes, most of them are quite awful). In fact, even after its first year or so, it still hadn't really caught on.

    But, now, TV Guide listed it as one of the greatest TV shows ever (it didn't even list the original series).

    I cannot emphasize that if you have not seen AOTC at least twice, you should not be here to discuss.

    Reasons.
    1) On the first viewing, you are already in an emotional state destroys judgment. You get either too hyped by things that exceed expectations, or too condemning of those that fall below.

    2) This is where you start to let the movie take you away. You already what happens when. There are no surprises this time around, and you evaluate the film as a whole. On the 2nd viewing, it is the time marvel.

    In regards to the writing quality, I think I will always prefer the prequels to the originals (even though Return of the Jedi comes very close). The whole plotline with the Emperor, Obi-wan's quest to find the Queen's assasin, Count Dooku, Anakin and his mother all seem to be more developed than the originals.

    Sure, several people have said it is not realistic for Anakin and Padme to fall in love in such a short amount of time. But, then again, the day before the fireplace sense, they had spent THE ENTIRE DAY together, just the two of them. Have you ever spent the entire day with some you adored, without being interrupted by anyone? Heck, even I have been willing to confess love for someone on the evening of such a day.

    I don't think AOTC is cliche ridden. In fact, I think it is very well disguised into fooling you that it is cliche ridden. Sure, Anakin is spouting off all this love nonsense about Padme. But, the weird thing is that I don't think he really loves her. I think he is obsessed, something that the originals didn't even dare to touch upon.

    With each viewing, AOTC rises higher on my list of favorite movies. Sure I would have liked the Lost Twenty dialogue, but that was really only unneeded exposition. George was wise to cut it out.

    JBFett,

    I find it curious that you quoted the Han scene at the beginning of ESB with "No. That's not it. Come on. Huhhhh?" But you complete disregarded the absolutely atrocious lines immediately preceding that one.
    "Han, we need you."
    "We need...what about 'you need'?"
     
  11. prof_frink

    prof_frink Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 1999
    I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what this 'Star Trek' of which you speak is.

    ;)
     
  12. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    I agree the lines in ESB between Han and Solo are cheezy. But the good thing is we don't have to take them all that seriously. The dramatic thrust of the movie doesn't depend on us buying it. Han comes across as an obnoxious lady's man stuck in the nineteen seventies, which of course he essentially is.

    But then Han gets tortured and you have a relatively authentic scene with Leia comforting him, followed by the classic "I love you," "I know" - one of the most memorable and funny romantic exchanges in the history of cinema.

    With AOTC, however, it is essential that the audience connects with Padme's and Anakin's relationship. But the horrible writing, especially in the fireside chat scene, impedes that process. Sure Anakin is obsessed, but the string of horrendous cliches that comes out of his mouth, and Padme's too, "We'd be living a lie" makes the scene ludicrous. It fails its essential narrative purpose: to make us believe in the relationship. People laugh at this scene. You will never go to a showing of AOTC where there aren't quite a few people giggling at the attocious writing of this scene.

    There is nothing wrong with how quickly they fall in love. Teenagers do that all the time. I fell in love four times a week at that age. GL could have solved the narrative dilemma by simply recognizing that teens thrown together are likely to mistake physical attraction for deeper feelings, and let the drama unfold at that level. Portraying intimate human relationships has never been Lucas's strength. Writing a story that depended on a realistic portrayal of young love was a mistake.
     
  13. vindvalya

    vindvalya Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    The OT just has much more fun and easy characters from a writing perspective.

    Han, Luke and Leia are very easy characters to write because their motivations are both easily defined, and shape their characters.

    Luke is supposed to be a kid that grows into a man. So Han calls him kid even after he is a Jedi.

    Han is supposed to be kind of a bad guy, but one that redeems himself.

    Leia is just Leia. Also a rather easy character to write. In your face personality, strong leader bent on destroying the Empire.

    Love between Leia and Han is a simple love hate one that is mush easier to write. It is also not as involved in the plot as the Ani, Padme one.

    As for Anakin, he is very very difficult to write, and the whole story revolves around him. You have to believe he falls in love, you have to believe he is a powerful Jedi, you have to believe that he falls to the Dark Side, and you have to like him. I think all are done well except the, you have to like him.(talking EP I here) There are a lot of motivations to create here, and they are all really complicated ones.

    Obi Wan easy character to write, and is written well.

    Padme also a difficult write. Has to fall in love with Anakin, and be a queen. Probably the worst part of the writing is Padme?s motivation to love Anakin. She has to be all about business, but have a good heart too. IMO she is one of the best parts about EP I. (Her and Qui Gon)

    Yoda, easy to write, and done well.

    So the two hard things to write about are Anakin, and Padme. I think Anakin is written well in that we will believe that he can fall to the Dark Side. Watch ESB again. Darth Vader is one bad dude in that movie. EP III is going to have to be very well written for us to believe that anyone can turn from being a good guy, to someone that evil.

    So in other words the writing really isn't worse, it is just that the story is a much more difficult story to write.
     
  14. obhavekenobi78

    obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    Did I miss something? Han and Solo spoke to each other in ESB???
     
  15. prof_frink

    prof_frink Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 1999
    With AOTC, however, it is essential that the audience connects with Padme's and Anakin's relationship. But the horrible writing, especially in the fireside chat scene, impedes that process.

    You know - I'm sick of arguing about the romance - but I'm going to do this one more time...

    Maybe it didn't connect with you - but it did with me - god knows I've said even cheezier things to girls when I was younger - and I've heard eaven stupider things said to me ("you are the bee to my flower" -> and that's real life folks - something somebody actually said)

    SO *I* connected to that scene, to the whole romance - and watch Padme during that scene, shifting uncomfortably, not falling for any of the lines.

    But the good thing is we don't have to take them all that seriously.

    Why is it ok to use this logic for the OT but not for the PT?
     
  16. Jar Jar

    Jar Jar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 1998
    >>Personally I'd rather read just about any post from Jabbadabbado, then endure another post from someone explaining how fantastic Jar-jar is, and claiming that those of us who don't agree are just not getting it. "But I tell you darn it - Jar Jar is the mythological clown figure! He's the mythological clown figure!";)

    Yes, he is a clown/comic figure, so that argument is valid. I don't see why that argument makes you sick because there must be about a 3-1 ratio of forumites here that dislike Jar Jar to the ones that do, so your side is heard plenty. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the "fart jokes" thing is old and sickening to hear as well. Most JJB bashers regurgitate the same crap over and over again too, so what's the friggin' point?

    >>I have no doubt that younger kids laughed at Jar Jar, and he likely was one of their favorite characters. Jar Jar was just one of the kiddy aspects of the film, and a reason why TPM didn't resonate with a wider audience like ANH did.

    That's what counts when it comes to making fans bro, because adults are way too fickle. I remember for me when I was young that it wasn't "I am your father" or any of the serious storylines of the OT that made me like it, it was the funny-looking aliens and the wierd ships that stuck out. When I got older I could appreciate the other things, but I wasn't able to get it back then. Oh btw, ANH was my least favorite film back then, because it was "boring".

    TPM has something a million times better than a funny looking alien, they have a funny-looking alien designed to be funny all the way! If this movie had come out when I was 6-10 I would have laughed my butt off even harder then I did seeing him at age 20, and it probably would have been my favorite movie ever. These kinds of memories are hard to beat friend, and those kids will grow up and love this new trilogy more than the original one.

     
  17. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    Han and Solo were truly, deeply in love.

    Prof_frink, the reason is, Han and Leia's relationship is endearing, and one of the most enjoyable aspects of ANH and ESB, but it is not critical to the six-part story arc.

    It is however essential that the audience connect with Padme and Anakin's relationship, and feel that the two have real rapport, otherwise a vital link to the OT falls apart.

    When the audience is laughing at parts of the movie that aren't supposed to be funny, then there's a problem.
     
  18. BucMan55

    BucMan55 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2002
    Hmm....8 times in the theater, and NEVER have I heard the audience laugh at any of the romance stuff OR Anakin's nightmare...

    So according to your experience, it happened. According to mine, it didn't.

    Gee...I guess my audiences must be stupid if they can't laugh at the romantic stuff...

    The closest I got was a guy sitting next to me at my 4th showing who wanted to see Padme and Anakin conceive Luke and Leia....ONSCREEN...with that jiggly music in the background....
     
  19. Telemachos

    Telemachos Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    I've seen AOTC multiple times now, and twice my audience has laughed at some of the romantic scenes. They've laughed (without exception) at the "nightmare" scene, which I think works on the page, but was ill-conceived on screen (fixed easily, I think, with a brief establishing shot).

    With regards to the argument that people say silly things while they're in love in real life -- a movie isn't real life. There are a great many things that we do and say IRL that aren't shown (and wouldn't work) on screen. That's the tricky bit about written dialogue -- it has to sound realistic and authentic without being that.
     
  20. prof_frink

    prof_frink Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 1999
    When the audience is laughing at parts of the movie that aren't supposed to be funny, then there's a problem.

    I don't care what the audience thinks, I care what I think - and I connected with it, for the reasons I posted and the reasons you chose to ignore...

    I've seen the movie twice - and NOBODY laughed at ANY of the romance scenes...

    Either way, you're entitled to your opinion, and I've given you the reasons for mine - but back it up with actual criticism, and not the reactions of a bunch of yokels at your local cinema.
     
  21. obhavekenobi78

    obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    You guys are so funny....maybe you have bad motivator's. Wake up, ALL of the Star Wars movies have bad lines, cheesy acting, and unrealistic science/technology. I thought that was part of the fun? Maybe I am wrong. Somewhere along the lines you guys started expecting Shawshank Redemption dialog along with A Beautiful Mind script writing. GET REAL! This is supposed to be fun, not tedious.

    I urge you to go see the movie. Relax. Sit back and enjoy. Laugh at the cheesy parts (I did), enjoy the over-the-top unrealistic effects (I did), and see it for what it has always been. Star Wars.
     
  22. BucMan55

    BucMan55 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2002
    TM: I agree that if you have Anakin's arms on TOP of the sheets, it solves the problem....
     
  23. prof_frink

    prof_frink Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 1999
    TM: I agree that if you have Anakin's arms on TOP of the sheets, it solves the problem

    Yeah - this was one thing I was surprised nobody caught while the movie was in production...

    Oh well... ESB has the sister kiss, ROTJ has the parental no-no (I have felt him) and now AOTC has the yong Jedi polishing his, ummm , lightsabre scene... ;)
     
  24. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    don't think AOTC is cliche ridden. In fact, I think it is very well disguised into fooling you that it is cliche ridden

    Bingo. Lucas is no fool, and neither is Hales (and others surrounding them). They know how that kind of dialogue will be received, but it's intentional, not due to a lack of writing ability.
     
  25. hotanguish

    hotanguish Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    You know - I'm sick of arguing about the romance - but I'm going to do this one more time...

    Maybe it didn't connect with you - but it did with me - god knows I've said even cheezier things to girls when I was younger - and I've heard eaven stupider things said to me ("you are the bee to my flower" -> and that's real life folks - something somebody actually said)

    SO *I* connected to that scene, to the whole romance - and watch Padme during that scene, shifting uncomfortably, not falling for any of the lines.
    Well said! The romance worked for me as well and was well-written, I think. My only problem with the romance is that I would have included Padme and Anakin's visit to Padme's family, and I would not have cut away so quickly after Anakin and Padme roll in the hay. The former helps ease the tension between the palace scene and the first kiss scene and further establishes the subtle indications that Padme is interested in Anakin but is trying to stoically repress her feelings. The latter I would have included because the roll in the grass is just screaming to end with an awkward moment (which it does in the screenplay after another kiss). Further, it helps further establish the tension between Padme's stoic position and her true feelings which comes to a head in the fireplace scene.
    Still, the romance that is there works just fine, IMHO.

    I think the problem is that people have come to expect the clean and cliched standard Hollywood romance dialog and scenes instead of a more honest look at romance.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.