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PT Prequel's Anakin

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    A stricter Master would have died. Or did you miss the part where Anakin cuts Mace's hand off and lets Palpatine kill him.
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    That was only at the end. I think Anakin was actually desperate for approval, even if he had a weird way of showing it.
     
  3. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    I, too, think Anakin was desperate for approval, but I'm not sure how best the Jedi should have given it (assuming for the moment they did - which I do not think happened). He also had what appeared to be a huge ego and I can see them feeling they were only contributing to it by applauding him when the Jedi path is one of not elevating one above the others - I can see Anakin striving to be "first, the best, the fastest" throughout his training.

    It must have confounded Obi-Wan on just how to train the boy without inflating his ego further.

    Those of you with more knowledge than I may and probably will counter that it was insecurity, not ego and I would not argue - I'm just saying how it must have appeared to those who were raising him and how it looked to me, right or wrong.
     
  4. MasterDillon

    MasterDillon Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 28, 2010

    Well keep in mind that Revan actually chose of his own free will to come back to the light when he was offered the chance by Bastilla Shan. Anyway, the one thing that always kept Anakin rooted was his love for people. Like for instance it says in the novel Anakin would never have fallen to the dark side had Obi-Wan not been sent away to Utapau to destroy Grievous. I think it was that love for his son that lead Anakin to forsaking the Dark Side just like his love for Padme lead him to joining the Sith in the first place. Honestly I think it is this loving attribute that makes Anakin a powerful individual, and someone that people can relate to.
     
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    If Anakin were so desperate for approval, that means that he didn't really have such a huge ego. Anyone with good self-esteem has no need for outside approval, yet Anakin obviously needed it. Thus there was no need for the Jedi to be concerned with conflating Anakin's ego.

    As I see it, Anakin wanted appreciation for the accomplishments that he did achieve. Obi-Wan seemed to give him that at least to a point. And if Anakin wants to be the first, the best, the fastest--some people just roll that way, and the best that Obi-Wan could do would be to teach him why he doesn't need to be "the best."

    If the Jedi made a mistake, it would be in letting Anakin know early on that he was the "Chosen One." That was information that he did not need.
     
  6. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    And THAT was Qui-Gon's mistake alone (at least going by the movies).

    Anakinfan, my point was that if the Jedi misunderstood Anakin's need for approval as stroking his ego, they would have taken steps NOT to stroke his ego, rather than giving him what he really wanted. If those posters who believe he was merely insecure, then the Jedi did not give him the proper upraising. If they were right on his ego, whatever they did was not good enough or it backfired.

    For the record, I don't take a stand on either side. There are valid reasons IMHO to fall onto either side of that divide.
     
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I think that's exactly what they did--misunderstood his need for approval as stroking his ego.

    And yes, it was Qui-Gon's mistake from what we see in the movies. Unfortunately we don't know what happened between TPM and AOTC.

    I don't think there is a "one-size-fits-all" method for either raising a child or training a Jedi, I think methodology for teaching certain principles has to be determined based on personality (just as students in a school will not all learn the same way), and I'm not sure the Jedi did that, since I'm not sure they had dealt with anyone with Anakin's personality or issues before.
     
  8. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    Assuming you're correct (I neither agree or disagree with your "diagnosis" of insecurity), how should/would the Jedi have figured that to be the problem rather than an overinflated ego? (Method of determination?)

    Having done that successfully, how do they manage it without alienating other younglings who perhaps see but don't get their own "validation"?

    Edited to add: I do assume that Obi-Wan, at least, did his best to explain to Anakin that it is not the Jedi way to value/rank Jedi based on who did what first, or best, or hardest... If I am correct, I assume this alone would be insufficient to deal with Anakin's insecurity (this being the "why"); this should have been coupled with _ ? Affirmation alone?

    I'm not convinced it could be addressed plausibly within the Jedi culture, but then I'm not a mental health or childhood education professional.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    1. I believe arrogance is always compensation for low self-esteem. Someone with a true overinflated ego isn't going to say **** like, "In many ways, I'm ahead of him." He wouldn't need to say it, he'd just believe it. Maybe the Jedi didn't see it that way; I'm speaking from my own experience working with thousands of kids over the past 20 years.

    2. I have no idea how they validated the other younglings, or if they did, but I also believe it is as important to praise children for what they do well, as it is to call them on what they do wrong. I'm not suggesting that they do anything special with Anakin, other than not tell him that he's the "Chosen One", and pay attention to any underlying emotional scars he might have from having been a slave.
     
  10. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    Oh, I don't know, I think many state these things out loud as a form of validation, and then argue with the others present if they disagree OR feel validated by the agreement of others.

    It must be easy to confuse one for the other (insecurity vs. ego). Is it "fair" to "blame" the adult(s) for a misdiagnosis, or is more a case of "what a horrible shame" but minus the "finger pointing" that some (not you) do?
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    To me it is a case of "what a horrible shame." I'm not blaming the Jedi, I wish there were a character to be angry with other than Palpatine; the whole situation just makes me sad.

    I definitely think Anakin said what he did in order to get validation, and if he really felt that great about himself, he wouldn't need the validation, therefore wouldn't need to say anything.
     
  12. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    Even Vader began to change by the end of ESB. And his changes became even more pronounced in ROTJ.


    He never said that to Anakin. He said it to the Jedi Council. Anakin was standing nearby at the time.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    1. I started to really like Vader in ROTJ; I could not stand him before then.

    2. Same mistake. Anakin should have never been made aware of that craptasm of a plot point prophecy.
     
  14. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    But he had never mentioned the prophecy. He did mentioned Palpatine's words about him being the most powerful Jedi ever. But not the Chosen One prophecy.
     
  15. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    To, in front of - really you're arguing semantics here. Qui-Gon was the one who made Anakin aware of the prophecy and Anakin's role in it. The meaning of the original sentence is still correct, if not technically accurate in phrasing.
     
  16. FARK2005

    FARK2005 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 3, 2012
    I disagree, a big ego does not equal high self-esteem, but they are two sides of the same coin (at least that is what I have been taught):

    Self-esteem is about self respect, self regard, and self love. People with high self-esteem, know who they are and are at peace with that; they have an internal sense of rightness which allows for them to treat other living beings as respectfully as their own self.

    Ego, on the other hand, is made of external elements. People with big egos therefore require constant validation, approval, satisfaction, and attention from the outside; they strongly believe they are superior to others – a superiority which in reality stems from feelings of inferiority.

    Ego and self-esteem “occupy” the same limited area of our psyche, so when the ego grows the self-esteem is reduced and will slowly disappear from our awareness which means we will look for strength from outside. When our self-esteem is high then our ego will be reduced and we will get our strength from inside.

    So though at first glance it may look like people with big egos also have high self-esteem it is actually the other way around. I think Anakin is a textbook-example of a person with a big ego, but low self-esteem: because their sense of security/power does not come from being at peace with who they are, such people often struggle with the feeling that they don’t have enough – that they are unworthy or not good enough – and to overwrite that sense of insecurity they will always want more – more respect, more attention, more acknowledgement, more power etc. They have a constant need to assert their supposed superiority (often by faulting or belittling others), seek to be the centre of attention, believe they know and are right about everything (they therefore consider the opinions of others to be wrong or inferior), ignore their own flaws/faults/mistakes by blaming others, and they are often impatient because their feelings of self importance gives them the idea that the entire universe should revolve around them. And like Anakin, people who develop a big ego often do so in an attempt to compensate for an underlying sense of unworthiness, inferiority, vulnerability, inadequacy etc. – or to put it simply: a lack of self love.

    The biggest mistake the Jedi made was allowing Anakin to have such close contact to Palpatine: it is almost impossible to improve a person’s self-esteem when their ego is constantly being fed, which is exactly what Palpatine did.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    No point in arguing over the word itself when we seem to agree on the overall point.

    Anakin didn't really believe he was the most powerful Jedi in the Temple--if he did, he wouldn't need the constant level of praise. Genuinely confident people are able to take criticism, even use it to examine whether they need to improve.
     
  18. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    He didn't thought he was the most powerful. He wanted to, but though that the Jedi (or Obi-Wan) were holding him back.
     
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  19. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 2008
    Anakin thought himself superior in mind and skills perhaps...and he knew he had the potential to be powerful, a potential that the Jedi were trying to hold back in his eyes.
     
  20. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    Nope I think the major reasons are that the story talked about in the OT of the good man, friendship with Obi-wan and powerful Jedi rep by Yoda etc who was seduced by the darkside but instead we got a badly acted 9yr old in the first film and then a badly acted whiney 19yr old in the second to a rather dumb pyschotic 25yr old in the 3rd.

    So instead of the tragic hero which is one of the great archtypes and which was what we had been told the story would be about, we got a pyscho who became more of a pyscho before he put on the helmet.
     
  21. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    There is merit to this post. Luke's father was built up quite a bit in the OT, and the revalation that he was Darth Vader even added to his larger than life status. But instead we got the galaxy's biggest putz, and among other problems of writing him that way, it's inconsistent with what we were previously told.
     
  22. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    Yeah killing the Emperor seems less like a good man being redeemed and more instead like the one good deed Anakin ever did.
     
  23. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    Well, no, I don't agree with that. I'm saying that the man they seemed to hold in such high regard in the OT doesn't coincide with the knob we got in the PT.
     
  24. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    So . . . you didn't like the Anakin in the PT, because he was portrayed as some flawed and complex human being? You prefer an Anakin who is either a paragon of perfection or an evil "badass"? I don't know. I find that rather one-dimensional.
     
  25. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    No, I mean he is spoken of as if he was someone who was respected & revered by his peers. He turned out to be neither.
     
    Valairy Scot likes this.