Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Oct 29, 2012.
What does one have to do with the other?
If Obi Wan really are his good friend, then you should believe in Anakin like the others, rather than let his son to kill him.
So you believe that being a "good friend" means overlooking either that friend's flaws or in this case, the obvious--that he was virtually unrecognizable as the Anakin Skywalker that Obi-Wan had trained?
Being a "good friend" does not mean that realism disappears.
I feel like a broken record, but I fear GL spent a little too much character time showing a conflicted Anakin when *I* think he'd have been better served by having him your average guy with adolescent issues and the weight of a prophecy on his shoulders, more or less otherwise an "average Joe" - who got caught up by Palps lies and his burdens and chose the wrong path for initially good reasons. We'd be rooting for him - no, Anakin, no - and heave a huge sigh of relief when Luke is able to reawaken that man years later.
In other words, not your blatantly foreshadowed angsty teen.
I also wouldn't have minded some more Palps/Anakin "seducing" against the Obi-Wan/Anakin mentoring, showing Palps getting his claws into Anakin. Fanfic does this wonderfully - so many authors, so many times.
What's always funny to me is--I do exactly that. Luke re-awakening Anakin made me the fan that I am now, and I spend most of the ruminations scene thinking "No, Anakin, no..." and then I turn the Blu-Ray off when he doesn't listen.
The difference in perception is always interesting, because the only "foreshadowing" I see is that which is a blatantly obvious attempt to insert heavy foreshadowing, the Imperial March in the Lars garage scene. (Yeah, that was his first time losing his **** and touching the Dark Side--thank you, Captain Obvious, for the musical accompaniment, we get it.) To me he always was a fairly average kid, albeit with a background that most of us haven't had, and that stupid asinine piece of crap of a plot point prophecy on his shoulders.
I didn't need a different Anakin to have this perspective, and I find it interesting that the "foreshadowing" stands out so heavily for some other fans. I don't know what brings us to different perspectives--personalities? Life experiences? Expectations?
Of course as far as the scene in the video, I've only watched it once.
It's not overlooking, it's the truth, Padme was right, Qui Gon was right, Luke was right because they believed Anakin rather than try to kill him.
He looked differently but he's still Anakin, Obi Wan didn't even show sympathy to him.
I'm not sure where Qui-Gon plays into this.
Padme and Luke were right because Anakin chose to ensure that they were right. And it took him awhile. And Padme was his wife, Luke was his son, that's quite a different bond from even a best friend.
As Valairy mentioned, Obi-Wan was raised to believe that a Jedi who turned to the Dark Side, could not return to the Light Side. Why Obi-Wan suddenly gets the Worst Friend Ever award because he couldn't drop the level of realism that he was raised upon in favor of optimistic idealism at best, omniscience at worst, is beyond me.
Can't say as I blame Obi-Wan - Anakin turned on his "family," even the younglings, sided with the Sith, overthrew the government...without the OT and Anakin's redemption I'd have been upset that Obi-Wan DIDN'T kill the (as it appeared) traitorous turncoat.
Once again, who cares who was right? That is only in hindsight; Padme had no more reason to believe in Anakin than Obi-Wan had not to. And if Luke had not survived until Endor, Anakin would probably remain Vader until his death. One cannot make a case that characters in a story MUST react to the known outcome when to them it isn't.
Oh must edit to include this:
I recognize that you weren't addressing me with this statement, but I think you're being rather unfair to Obi-Wan. Jedi are taught basically since birth that, "once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny" -- for Obi-Wan, this was simply a truth he was told to accept by someone he loved and trusted -- "the boy you trained, gone he is; consumed by Darth Vader." And regardless of how Obi-Wan may feel about Anakin, his situation is immensely more complicated than Padmé's because Obi-Wan has both the duty and ability to stop him. Which isn't true of Padmé. Given all that Anakin had done, if he wasn't willing to stop on his own, then he needed to be forced to stop. Obi-Wan was just put into that unfortunate position.
That's not the case, if no jedi could return from the light, both the republic and the jedi would be doomed thousands of years ago. Are you saying Obi Wan didn't take his history lesson good enough?
Well a good friend, even a former good friend should not let his son to kill his dad.
You're arguing that Obi-Wan was taught of Jedi who turned to the Light Side? I haven't seen evidence of that anywhere, and plenty of evidence of the opposite from the movies. Yoda, who has been around 900 years, said "Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Since you've brought up the EU, read Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, it talks quite a bit about this belief among the Jedi that one who had turned to the Dark Side could not come back.
So where is this evidence that Obi-Wan was taught that Jedi could return to the Light Side? Not evidence that "it happened in this Old Republic resource," as Obi-Wan wasn't omniscient, I need to know that he was taught it.
And regardless, I'm still not following the argument that "Obi-Wan sucks because he didn't believe Anakin would come back to the Light Side".
May I ask but, what on earth are you referencing?
The films make it crystal-clear that the PT Jedi don't believe you can turn back to the light. Saying something will "forever dominate your destiny" is rather definitive, no?
Obi-Wan didn't think it was possible for Anakin to turn back.
And, certainly, it was wrong for Obi-Wan to lie to Luke, but his past friendship with Anakin should not supersede the rights and lives of the trillions of beings Anakin has oppressed.
Obi-Wan thought that Anakin and Palpatine had to die for peace to be returned to the galaxy. Luke was the only one who could do it. That Obi-Wan doesn't place Anakin's life above that of every other sentient in the galaxy hardly makes him a bad person.
Padme also thought it was her responsibility to stop Anakin, that's why she went to convince him, and she didn't give up after she was choked by Anakin. Luke was also clear of his duty-stop the Emperor and save the galaxy but did he buy Obi Wan's theory?
If we put the prequel in, Anakin's hatred only grew after he killed Dooku, why would he think Luke could stay in the light side if he murder his own father?
^That makes him a Jedi.
No, Luke did not buy Obi-Wan's "theory." He was lucky he was correct, not dead. Anakin was lucky Luke made up his own mind. Obi-Wan was lucky he was proved wrong.
Still - so what?
It's still all hindsight.
No, jedi had all the knowledge recording in their temple.
The Great Holocron clearly have Ulic's case and mostly Revan's.
And Yoda already knew many of his thoughts was out of time after he saw the destruction of the Jedi order.
It's not "He sucks", he showed he was not a good friend of Anakin like he claimed since he didn't believe there was still good in Anakin and was trying to use his son to kill Vader, that action could doom both Anakin and Luke forever.
Yes, but re-read my post a bit more carefully: the responsibility and the ability. Padmé is physically not capable of stopping Anakin, so she is forced to resort to words to try to get through to him. She flat-out refuses to follow him though. But that's the extent of her power. All she can do is try to convince him to stop. She's also not a Jedi -- she doesn't hold the same beliefs about the Dark Side that they do.
Luke didn't buy "Obi-Wan's theory" (properly titled, it should be the "PT Jedi theory") because he hadn't been taught this as an inviolable fact since he was an infant.
Obi-Wan believed that Luke could stay on the light side because Jedi are allowed to kill in defense, but not in anger, hate, or aggression. That's why, even though Obi-Wan strikes Anakin down, he doesn't fall to the Dark Side (although Anakin's injuries could very well have killed him). That's why Obi-Wan freaking praises Anakin for killing Dooku on the Invisible Hand -- because he doesn't know it was a cold-blooded killing where Dooku was unarmed. He thinks it was in the thick of battle.
What ability does Obi Wan have? He could not kill Vader, not after his death, he could only convince Luke to do so.
That's not the case, Vader didn't want to kill Luke like he did to Obi Wan, so that's not just defense. And Luke already said "I cannot do it." Even Obi Wan could not kill Anakin, that's what kept him in the light.
If Luke really killed Vader in EP VI, he would fall to the Dark Side just like the Emperor said.
For a guy who "knew his thoughts were out of time," he was still making that statement to Luke on Dagobah. That seems a bit weird.
As I've said, I'm not commenting on Revan because I won't comment on material that I haven't read, so you've lost me on that argument.
Sounds like you believe that a person must be an idealist and believe against what flies in the face of reality in order to be considered a "good friend."
I disagree. What you call "not a good friend," I call a realist.
I like the fact that Anakin was brought back by Luke's (and indirectly, his mother's) unconditional love, however, as Valairy said, Luke was fortunate that he (and Padme) were right. The story could have easily had a much sadder ending.
And the argument that "Obi-Wan was never a good friend because he didn't do what Luke did," is not one we will agree on.
So he was still wrong, and the Jedi holocron does have the information of the Great Sith War. Palpatine's office even have a pic of the Great Hyperspace War.
A good friend, even a former one should never use his friend's son to murder his friend.
Yes the story could have easily had a much sadder ending, but what could be worst? Luke killed his father and fell to the Dark Side, replaced his father as a more powerful Sith Lord. Do you really believe he could kill his father without falling to the Dark Side? Actually he was quite close.
I'm actually quite the oppisite, I think the two most strongest themes in the Skywalker Saga, would have to be the Fall of Anakin and the Redemtion of Vader. I watched the movies in the correct order so I might not have had the same feeling as some of you older fans. But to me, It made Anakin's redemption much more meaning full. Vader is now gone, with Anakin back once again. Sure he killed thousands of people, ended many lives, but in a way, his sins were forgiven, maybe not by the whole Galexy, but by Luke, and possibly even the force. (I just want an Anakin Force Ghost!) It always brings a smile to my face when I see this scene now, vader is gone, and Anakin is back!
I personaly like to think anakin has a bunch of flashback on his final hours on the Death Star
If anyone can find a better flash back video, please tell me.
I personaly like to beleive that it made ROTJ more meaning full, which is why ROTJ is my favorite of all 6 movies.
Theres a picture of Obi Wan, Yoda, and Qui Gon, lovingly looking down at luke taking vader's mask off on the second Death Star I wanted to post on this thread, but I can't seem to find it, If i see it i'll post it. It's a good peice of art and would probably make you smile.
Regardless of whether "confront" meant kill or not, I don't blame Obi-Wan. Vader was evil; a Sith. It was Obi-Wan's duty to see that the Sith were taken down, regardless of past friendships or not.
I suspect, Slowpoking, you are a "trees, not the forest" type of person, but then again, so is Anakinfan...so maybe that doesn't fly. But you are valuing personal loyalty over a greater good, the individual over the group - which is not inherently wrong, don't misunderstand me - but there's merit in BOTH positions and potential harm in clinging to just one of those extremes without consideration of the other.
And he never thought let Luke do it would damn Luke, the killing would almost surely turn him into a Sith as well?
Let's get back to the topic, sure Obi Wan could have his reason, but it's totally not something someone would do to a very good former friend. So is Vader's action in OT, so just like I said, the portrayal of their relationship in PT was quite accurate. They were friends, but not that good friends.
The closest friends often end up making the most bitter enemies. The more you love someone, the more they can hurt you, which could make you want to hurt them back. The more you trust someone, the more hurtful the betrayal. The closer you are to someone, the more vulnerable you become to things like anger, hate and bitterness, ie the dark side. This is the risk of attachments.
Hurting someone you used to love, or even still love, is something people do all the time.
When Vader says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do", imo there is a longing in his voice, a sign of fondness for the past.
So? He was angry, hateful, bitter and carrying a 20 year grudge. He later changes, as we see when he's standing and smiling with Obi-Wan.
Obi-Wan showed affection for the Anakin he once knew in ANH. Obi-Wan had no affection for the person Anakin became, so of course he didn't show any, he didn't feel any for him at the moment.
Anakin was still bitter with Obi-Wan, he was carrying a grudge and wanted to prove that he was now the master, of course he didn't show any affection, he didn't feel any for him at the moment. Again, he later changed.
It's like you're presenting their reunion in ANH as a reunion between former best friends who just drifted apart over time. Things have changed since they were good friends, Anakin helped destroy just about everything Obi-Wan ever loved and Obi-Wan turned Anakin into more machine than man. They have cause to be feel nothing but disgust for each other.
You don't see how each could consider the other unforgivable? People have forsaken loved ones for far less.
Cool story, one I'm familiar with. Unfortunately, it's not at all relevant.
Cay and Ulic are not Obi-Wan and Anakin. I actually agree that Obi-Wan and Anakin were not as tight as Cay and Ulic, but that doesn't mean Obi-Wan and Anakin weren't good friends.
I think it's fair for him not to believe.
Why? Just because they were good friends? They aren't any longer and Vader has given Obi-Wan zero reason to believe in him.
I think the consensus is that Luke is making an incredible leap of faith in his belief in his father, a leap only he could make. Obi-Wan's inability to make that leap doesn't somehow prove that they were never good friends.
And? How does this prove they were never good friends? Things change.
People do a lot of things they shouldn't do.
Why does Obi-Wan have to believe in Anakin? Things have changed, this doesn't undo their friendship.
Obi-Wan was wrong. I don't see how this precludes the possibility that he and Anakin were once good friends.
On the contrary, when I see Anakin kill the Emperor in Return of the Jedi it reminds me of all of the things he did that were not selfless. It just reminded me that he only did things to protect his "attachments". He wanted to save Padme, Shimi and Luke. He inadvertently saved the galaxy while satisfying himself. Anakin in the prequel trilogy was a bit scary at times. His behavior was erratic and he looked as though he could lose it at any time. He finally did in Revenge of the Sith. He saved his son and that is good but all that did was finally wake him up to realize that all of the evil things he did in his search for power and to protect his "possessions" which were Padme and his mother were misguided because he listened to Palpatine who lied to him and all that did was imprison him inside of his cybernetic suit with diminished force abilities. Anakin just realized that Palpatine lied to him as he was watching him try to kill his son. This is why Vader looks at him in shock as he hears Palpatine say "Now Young Skywalker. You will die." It is like Vader is thinking I stopped Mace from killing you to save my family which you said you would help me save which I lost anyway and now you are about to try and bring an end to my son? It still took him awhile to make the decision to kill Palpatine even then. What will it take for him to figure out that Palpatine has used him and used him up for over two decades? All I could do was shake my head as he marched on the Jedi Temple. What was even more hard to watch is when he Force choked Padme and again I was just shaking my head as I watched him do this. She took a lot of chances to be with him and this is what his reciprocal love has brought to her being force choked on a platform in Mustafar as she is trying to save him from himself.