PT Prequel's Anakin

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Oct 29, 2012.

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  1. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    The Anakin that returned was doing things to serve himself. He just happens to help the galaxy while he was trying to save his son. The history of Anakin shows that he puts his own desires ahead of all others. I want to like Anakin but his behaviors and his actions just tell me there is something about this Chosen One that is not quite right.


    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 8, 2012
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't think the Anakin who returned was just trying to serve himself. I'm not following how saving his son is considered "selfish." Children are people, not possessions. If Vader were only trying to serve himself, he'd kill Luke in order to ensure that his (Vader's) place at Palpatine's side was not threatened. Or he'd do what he threatened to do in both ESB and ROTJ, he'd kill Luke for refusing to turn.

    There was no advantage to Vader to keeping Luke alive when Luke was on the Light Side.

    Anakin could be selfish in the prequels and he had a lot of trouble putting the greater good of the galaxy ahead of his own desires, but the monumental difference between the Anakin at the end of ROTJ and the Vader in ANH (or on Mustafar) was the point. Almost 30 years later, I still remember how utterly shocked I was when I first saw Anakin throw Palpatine down the reactor core. After hating Vader in ANH and ESB, I would have never believed he had it in him to actually save another human being while sacrificing his own life to do so. Just the fact that he sacrificed his own life shows that the deed was not for selfish reasons.

    And I don't understand the last statement. You want to like Anakin but because of his behaviors and his actions, you don't like him? OK then--just don't like him. There's no rule that says you have to like him.
    minnishe likes this.
  3. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    I understand that but Anakins entire behavior is that of someone that wishes to satisfy his own desires. I never said anything was wrong with wanting to save or take care of their children but killing others including the younglings which is what he did to justify that just makes no sense. Of course we know that children are not possessions but does Anakin know this? This is the question that I ask. Padme ask Anakin at one point if Obi-Wan can help them. Anakins response? "We don't need Obi-Wan." Anakin was not open to receiving help from anyone at this point except for Palpatine. I never said there was anything wrong with Anakin saving his son and that has been a theme in my post. There is nothing wrong with it. However in doing so he inadvertently saves the galaxy. He gives his life to save his son and there is nothing wrong with that. It shows his love for his son and that is fine. I want to like Anakin and I can forgive Anakin but I can not forget the things he did. All of the lives that he took can not be brought back. My point in saying I want to like Anakin is to say that I am looking for the good in him and I am not trying to bash him but the end result is that he took a lot of lives. These are my personal views which I am expressing. I am not asking anyone to agree with me but my wish is for people to understand my point of view. That is a difference.
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 8, 2012
  4. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I have seen this kind of discussion many times and I have to question some of the logic that some of the ideas within it are derived from.

    How many times I have seen Obi-Wan portrayed as a liar, who deliberately misleads Luke.... Weird. I take it a Star Wars fan would know that the story has altered over the years - you cannot be under the illusion that the entire saga came out as was initially imagined within GL's mind in 1977. We know (from interviews) that the words spoken by Obi-Wan to Luke in ANH (then just simply Star Wars) were designed to be literally true. When Vader and Luke's father were re-created in ESB as the same person then Obi-Wan's words had to be ret-conned - but are clearly ret-conned within a context which is supposed to be true "from a certain point of view".

    Now, I generally follow the principle that what the creator of a story has/had in mind is what one should seek. As far as GL is concerned Obi-Wan and Anakin were good friends, brothers in arms. Whether he portrayed that well within the films is a matter of debate, but it seems a strange concept, to me, to try and 'trump' the author by altering his characters; to portray them as something they are not intended to be.

    So, from that perspective, I see Obi-Wan as a man who has had to cut down a man he trained and came to love like a brother; who has lived through, and is scarred by, a galaxy wide, brutal war. Has watched as everything he believed in and fought for was betrayed by the army he fought with, the Chancellor he served and the brother he loved. The whole Jedi order despatched with the help of that man, a man he has seen killing 'younglings' with his own eyes. Of course he sees Anakin as dead, and Vader as having devoured him.

    Maybe if Luke had seen Vader hacking down younglings, had seen him so easily commit violence upon the defenceless (against Leia, perhaps, as he had before with Padmé) then perhaps he would have 'swallowed' Obi-Wan's 'lies'. Perhaps he, too, would have found it difficult to discern the humanity of Anakin within that suit.

    Obi-Wan is desolate after Mustafar, and has had twenty years of pondering upon the twists and turns of his life and actions. I liked, in Ghosts of Tatooine, that that sadness and turmoil has left its trace within his abandoned hut.

    In terms of the OP, I think what I took from the PT, as others here have indicated, was that there was too much foreshadowing of the Vader to be, and not enough of the 'good man', or the 'good friend' that he and Obi-Wan are supposed to be.
  5. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    To Vader, people are possessions. See Padme.

    I don't really try to determine what is selfish and what isn't, I see it as semantics. That being said, I can definitely see how Vader saving Luke can be called selfish. Vader couldn't stand to watch Luke die because of how it made him feel, therefore saving him was to satisfy his own feelings. Anakin trying to save Padme was a mirror reflection, he didn't even consider Padme's feelings, it was all about his own, and how he wasn't going to lose her like he lost his mother. Listen to him on Mustafar, just about everything he says is about him.

    The advantage to saving Luke is that he'd rather die saving Luke than live with the pain of letting him die. I can see that being called selfish.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't know that not wanting a loved one to die because of how it makes us feel is selfish, I'd say it's normal (and maybe it's normal because we're all selfish but that could be semantics). The difference is in the action Anakin was willing to take in order to save both Padme and Luke--his actions to save Padme were completely selfish, with Luke, not so much.

    And if his saving Luke was selfish, what would have been the unselfish option?
  7. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    IMO?

    There is no such thing as unselfish.

    It is a mirror reflection, as in reversed. On Mustafar, it's all "me, me, me". On the Death Star, it's all "you, you, you".
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Dec 8, 2012
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    OK, point taken; I'd say whether there's a real point of contention here depends on whether Vader's actions were meaningless at the end of ROTJ because he returned to the Light Side to save his son and not for another reason (whatever that other reason might be, vision from Obi-Wan telling him to change his ways or something).

    As far as I'm concerned, his return to the Light Side was good and meaningful whatever his reason for doing so. His returning because Luke loved him unconditionally just added to it; Luke's actions were so outstanding because they were beyond expectations, I doubt anyone could blame him for not wanting to reach out for his father. Which is why I have such an issue with the premise of the posts in here indicating that "Obi-Wan was an ass/not a good friend to Anakin because he didn't behave like Luke did."
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Dec 8, 2012
  9. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    In the end it seemed like Anakin was Luke's Padawan. Where as Anakin thought that killing others was the way to "save" others. Luke was willing to give his life to save his sister, han, lando, chewie and the entire Rebel Alliance by going to the Death Star alone which was basically a suicide mission. As he tells Sidious "Soon you will be dead and I with you." Luke changed the rules on the Death Star. Luke was willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone. Anakin had to learn that. I have always thought that is what being a Jedi was about. Sacrificing oneself for the greater good. My favorite line is when Luke says "I am a Jedi." He would not kill anyone in the manner in which the Sith wished for him to. That is the difference between Anakin and Luke. Vader at one point tries to tell Luke "It is the only way to save your friends." Luke knew better and he saved the "Chosen One." In addition to that Luke re-defined Anakin where as Palpatine kept saying that Luke was like his father insinuating that he was destined to become a Sith Lord. Luke says "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Luke defined himself and did not allow himself to be defined by Palpatine. This is another thing Anakin learned from Luke.

    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 8, 2012
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yes, Anakin did have to learn that--and he did. Which is why the end of ROTJ is great. I assumed that Vader would allow Palpatine to fry Luke to death, and it's an understatement to say that his picking up Palpatine and tossing him into the reactor core was a surprise.
  11. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Another lesson learned from Luke is when Anakin tells Luke that "nothing can stop him from dieing". As Yoda would say Death is a natural part of life. Something that Anakin needed to understand. Anakin also tells Luke to "Leave him." Learn to let go of everything you are afraid to lose. In the end I believed that Anakin wanted to do what was right and Luke helped him.
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 8, 2012
  12. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Why can't people accept that all of the major characters (except perhaps Palpatine) in this saga had their strengths and their weaknesses. And that all were not only capable of good deeds, but also selfish and morally questionable behavior. What is the point in arguing that this character is superior to that character . . . yada, yada, yada, when most of them have proven to possess different shades of gray?
    minnishe likes this.
  13. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    If they became bitter enemies, that only means the friendship is not tight enough.

    Why? Vader is still Anakin, if he once had great affection he should not give up on the current Anakin.


    So what? Anakin also destroyed what Padme loved, but did you see her? Luke never saw the good Anakin, Vader almost killed him in ANH, kidnapped his best friends in TES and cut off his hand, but when he knew the truth he still chose to believe his father still had good.





    Because as good friends, he should keep affection and know his friend well, and he knew/believe Anakin less than Luke, who only met Anakin a few times after he turned to Vader, sigh.



    As a long time friend he should show.
    Same as Padme and Luke: Affection.
  14. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    ^:)^^:)^

    I understand what @Felicia is saying: it's not *clear* to me from the movies alone whether Vader acted to save "his" son (sole motivation, emphasis on "his") or finally understood the consequences of selfish behavior and acted (motivation: to undone the damage AND save his son, lesser emphasis on the "his" son).

    I think years on this board are moving me from the "possessive" retribution to the "realization" retribution, but I'm not wedded to either view at the moment. In some ways that is good, in some not. Now, whether or not GL has spoken on this, I'm only talking what is shown and somewhat implied in the movie.

    Those who believe more in the first motivation will obviously see Vader/Anakin's action as arising out of attachment, selfish, with galaxy-good consequences. Those who believe in the realization motivation will believe Vader/Anakin rose above mere selfishness, to consideration of the consequences and saved both the one man before him as well as the rest of the galaxy. Monumentally different viewpoints, but both defensible.

    @only one kenobi: So, Ghosts of Tatooine is worthwhile for an Obi-fan?

    As for this debate, it is clear that different viewpoints are held by the posters here and it doesn't sound like any of us are moving towards the other viewpoint...
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    LMAO. I guess in your world, people never change, relationships never change, and unconditional love is the only defining factor of "true" friendship.

    Three questions for you: one, do you believe that married people who divorce, never loved each other in the first place? Two, along the same lines, do you believe that a person who cuts off ties from an abusive family member for the sake of self-preservation, is a bad person who never loved that family member in the first place? Three, do you believe the converse of your statement--that people who are enemies must always remain enemies, or could things change, allowing them to become friends?
  16. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Maybe Anakin just went to his happy place again.

    Last edited by fett 4, Dec 8, 2012
  17. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    People do change, but if they change from friends to fierce foes like Anakin and Obi Wan, that surely means the bond is not tight at all. Did we see Padme say "Damn, he choked me so bad, I'm gonna raise my son to kill him!" or Luke say "Oh, he never cared or loved me, and almost killed me, I'm gonna kill him as well!"? No.

    Sure married people do divorce, but they won't use their child to kill each other unless their love is really really weak. And it's not like Anakin or Obi Wan was abusive to each other during their friendship.
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    You didn't answer my questions. And you keep repeating over and over that Anakin and Obi-Wan must not have been friends if they became enemies, and speaking only for myself, that isn't registering.

    Do you have any new evidence to corroborate this point of yours or have we hit an impasse?
  19. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    They were friends, just weren't very tight, so the way PT portrayed their relationship is accurate, that's my point.
  20. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    I agree with anakinfan. Anakin changed a lot over the prequels. The SW movies make the point that the Dark Side is actually transformative. That it can take over you and change you into a very different peron. The Anakin at the end of ROTS, who killed others, including younglings, for personal gain, was NOT the person whom Obi-Wan had raised and mentored for over a decade. Their relationship was real, but it was broken.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    @Slowpokeking: So impasse then? I don't agree that they weren't tight, and your best attempt at convincing me seems to be blanket statements indicating that all human relationships function according to some formula you've devised in your mind.

    I don't care one way or another, I'm just seeing if continuing to open the thread is going to mean seeing repetitive posts.
  22. hlc88 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    In my mind the PT didn't do a very good job of showing how close Anakin and Obi-Wan were. It is clear that by the time of ROTS they are brothers. The little you see of them together in ROTS before Obi-Wan leaves for Utapau really highlights that. They both care for one another. The Clone Wars, I think, brought them closer together then when they were just Master and Padawan. I think this is represented quite well in the EU comics and TCW itself. The films, IMO, don't do a good job of really enforcing the idea that they were close (though the hints are scattered throughout the films of this closeness, it isn't thrown in your face), whereas other material does cover that aspect of their relationship rather well.
  23. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    No, Dark Side does not transform you, it expand the darkness you already have to a very high level. But that does not mean all the good is gone, unless your loved ones totally abandon you.

    As for Anakin, there is darkness inside him all along, he allowed it to grow to save Padme. That's his biggest flaw, he loves his relatives so much, could do horrible things to save them, and that lead to his downfall.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Dec 8, 2012
  24. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    The Dark Side is an aspect of the Force. The Force exists outside of its users, and its "will" is referenced multiple times throughout the movies. In ANH, Obi-Wan said that a Jedi can learn to use the force, but that it also controls Force users as well. It' a two-way street.

    Also, the Jedi actually did believe that once you fell to the Dark Side, that was it. Luke rebelled against Obi-Wan and Yoda in ROTJ. They wanted Luke to just kill Vader. Luke was the one who believed (and later proved) that there was still good in him.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  25. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    It does change people a bit, but does not totally change you like brainwash. Actually, most of the Jedi opened their darkness first then they accepted the Dark Side.

    Well there were very famous cases of Jedi turned Sith returned to the light and saved the republic/Jedi order. They usually won't totally fall to the Dark Side unless their loved ones abandon them.
  26. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    It's actually a lot like brainwashing. Palpatine expected it to completely change Luke after a few minutes of taunting, and he came very close to succeeding
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