Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Oct 29, 2012.
It's not brainwash, it's expand Luke's darkness which was already inside him.
And you base this upon..? Ok, so you base this upon some EU re-hashing (and also re-imagining) of the whole fall to the darkside/redemption story-arc (remarkable, to me, how un-imaginitve some of the EU sounds) and how they have portrayed what the darkside is.
Here's the thing though, this isn't that story, nor is the understanding of the Force the same. We are told exactly what we are to know of the darkside of the Force within the movies. Strange that there should be so many fallen and redeemed Jedi from the past in the EU and yet every Jedi in the movies seems utterly unaware of this history. My goodness they were all so dumb and ignorant....
"But its canon..." I hear it heckled somewhere from the crowd, and a few mumbles rise in support. Well, here it is, I don't give a flying fig. The way I see it the movies have precedent. Canon schmanon. In other words, there is no point in dragging in another story-arc, written, re-imagined and sculptured by somebody who has their own view of what Star-Wars should have been - and that is what any re-hash of a Star-Wars story arc really is; it is the author interpreting the events of the movies in a way they would have liked it to be done.
Back to the point in question. GL tells us that Anakin and Obi-Wan are like brothers, there is a bond between them, they are, despite your protestations, very tight. In fact the duel on Mustafar loses its significance, its drama and emotion if they are not brothers.
And Obi-Wan clearly believes that Anakin is like a brother - "I loved you. You were my brother..." - and so if we take your perspective then Anakin had simply manipulated Obi-Wan into believing that they were tight. In fact this Anakin sounds very much like Matt Stover's Dooku - a man who does not know friendship, sees people as simply those who are useful and those who are dangers. But, that means there is no redemption, that his killing of Palpatine was not meant to result in his own death.... but that doesn't tie in with his words to Luke...and there is no reason for him to lie or manipulate Luke then.
Back to the point, all the evidence says Obi-Wan and Aanakin were tight. Like brothers. You can argue that the movies failed to capture that, but that's a subjective position, and I personally think that AOTC and ROTS would have benefited with more of the friendship between Obi-Wan and Anakin than the foreshadowing of his fall.
I agree, I think that was one of the main problems of the PT which was their friendship was never really shown. It gets talked about but not shown which was a mistake, as Hayden and Ewan seemed to have a decent on screen chemisty and it could have really worked. I also think Qui-gon was unesscary and it should have been Obi-wan who found Anakin but thats by the by.
Obi-Wan and Anakin had an unusual relationship, which actually makes sense since the Jedi have an unusual lifestyle. They weren't just student/mentor, friends, brothers, or father/son. They were all of them at the same time. I thought the relationship was well handled. The two of them are separated by more than a decade in age, and Obi-Wan takes his duties as a mentor very seriously. They weren't supposed to be buddying around all the time.
Most of their "friendship" is from PT, and that's what I'm talking about. People criticize PT for the lack of their friendship but when we discuss, you guys mostly can only take examples from PT to show their friendship. That's it, OT really didn't show it, there was very very little trace except Vader mentioned "Obi Wan once thought as you do" and they stare at each other, other than this, most of their action even told us the opposite.
I don't understand what you are asking for. Did you want Anakin and Obi-Wan to be friends in the OT? I just don't at all see where you're coming from. They are expressly enemies throughout the OT until the very end, when Anakin saves Luke. What exactly do you want?
It's kind of hard for there to be any more than minuscule traces of their friendship when Anakin wiped out the Jedi Order and then killed Obi-Wan, just sayin'.
That is my understanding of Slowpokeking's view (as the poster has stated above); the complaint IS "The OT did NOT show their friendship and so there was no friendship." In that sense, Slowpokeing is absolutely correct.
Why the poster believes that is necessary is what we are trying to understand - the argument as I understand it is that Obi-Wan no longer thought of Anakin as a friend, so gave up on him and did not try to save him. Anakin had given up on Obi-Wan as a friend and thus could not be saved by him: that friends that are as close as claimed would have remained friends, even in the OT and therefore the PT friendship was only surface deep.
Somehow that leads to the conclusion, at least in part, that Obi-Wan ignored known Jedi lore and teachings that fallen Sith could be redeemed and only did so because he wasn't friends enough with Anakin to care to save one he claimed was his friend. If he had been Anakin's friend IN THE OT as he claimed, he would not have incited Luke to "go kill" Anakin, but to go save him.
"We" have, by and large, conceded that Slowpokeing is correct in one regard: Obi-Wan and Anakin were not friends in the OT. What we disagree on is the conclusion to be drawn from that.
For all the reasons that I have given before they are no longer friends. Obi-Wan doesn't even recognise Vader as Anakin. He watched as his brother killed younglings in the Jedi Temple, as well as other Jedi. He has had to stop him from killing his own wife; he has been in hiding whilst the Emperor and his 'good friend' have committed atrocities across the galaxy. Could that really be the man he loved? No, for Obi-Wan it cannot be. For him Vader is another thing altogether, more machine now than man. Anakin is dead.
For Vader, Obi-Wan is the reason he is incarcerated in that suit, unable to breathe, limbless, without the aid of machinery - it's all Obi-Wan's fault. And he is a slave to the darkside, because this is not Revan or any other EU re-hashing of the fall-redemption story-arc. In this story the darkside, as Yoda tells us, will forever dominate your life if you fall for its temptations. Even Anakin acknowledges this at the end. And, yes, you might argue that Luke had faith but then, as I pointed out earlier, Luke had not witnessed the atrocities that Vader committed that Obi-Wan had and perhaps if he had, he might not have been so believing.
Follow the story being told, not other tales built around the original.
My point is, if they are really good friends they should still keep some affection to each other, but we saw very very little of them in OT. Vader's ruthless killing blow and he didn't regret for a bit, Obi Wan's words to Luke all showed the opposite way.
Use someone's son to kill someone is really low, even against an enemy who you never met, not to say former friends, and Vader showed almost zero affection, didn't hesitate a bit before he killed Obi Wan. So from these I think it's fair to judge they didn't really have tight relationship even before Anakin's betrayal.
It's not like once you became enemy you should do nothing but hurt him, former friends would still keep some respect and affection to each other.
That's the point, Obi Wan claimed he was good friend of Anakin, but he gave up on Anakin totally when Luke, who never tasted love from his father, almost got killed by Vader twice, believed there was good in Vader.
So that showed their friendship isn't really tight. Obi Wan didn't have enough faith in his friend, nor did he know his friend well enough.
No, Obi-Wan claimed Anakin WAS (in the past) a good friend. Slowpokeing: we all agree there was no (current) friendship in the OT. Would you expect their friendship to be tight when Anakin slaughtered the Jedi and helped Palps transform the Republic into the Empire? Would you expect Obi-Wan to not oppose Anakin's actions because he was a friend, despite those actions? Did you expect Vader to intone, "I am your friend, Obi-Wan, even if you have lopped off three of my limbs - I love yu, bro'"?
No, Obi-Wan had zero reason to believe in his (once) friend. Now. And no matter how well you know someone, that someone can surprise you. How many "he's a good man, I know it" have in real life turned out to be pedophiles or murderers? Far, far too many.
What we don't understand is why you don't believe a friendship can fracture and end - you believe this is impossible if they truly ever were friends and we say it can. Really, at this time, there is nothing left to discuss and we are at an impasse.
Now, Valairy, we all know that people never change and relationships never change. No matter what happens, if you ever felt love or affection for someone, you must always feel that way. If you don't, if you ever feel that you must let go of someone for your own protection or well-being, if you ever feel you can't trust the person again--you are a lousy friend and a despicable human being.
I know, I didn't read that particular rule book either.
No, but it's totally possible to still keep some affection and respect to him, just like Luke and Padme.
No, but he should still believe there is still good in him because the friendship? And don't do something like use his son to kill him?
Luke and Padme showed us there are reasons to believe him, affection is the reason, and they were right.
It can fracture, but shouldn't end like Anakin and Obi Wan in OT if it was really tight.
Luke had zero reason to believe in Anakin; he didn't even know the man, only the tales of him. He no doubt idealized this unknown father whom he knew litte of (per Owen; I doubt Beru told Luke much as Owen would have disapproved) and idealized more when Anakin's ex-friend Obi-Wan related his father's good qualities. Luke's "affection" for his father was based on this ideal, not reality, so I find this personally to be a bad example.
Padme, now - well, she was his wife and always wanted to believe the best and probably still wanted to believe the best of her childrens' father - and she did not see the murdered Jedi and younglings scattered across the floor of the Jedi Temple - it was easier for her to pretend Obi-Wan must be - had been- just had to be mistaken - she knew Anakin to be a good man, a loving man.
Trouble is, men (and women) can love a spouse and be gentle and loving and then turn around and do evil and cruel acts. The spouse often denies this as even as a possibility - but, they cry, "he's a good man, a loving husband, a doting dad - he couldn't have done that!"
Heck, Hitler apparently loved Eva Braun and dogs.
So, tell us: what reasons did Luke and Padme have to believe in Anakin's "goodness"? Their friendship alone? Luke's deep knowledge of his father's heart and mind? They shared a belief, one without reason IMHO - they did because they did, not because of X, Y and Z.
Vader: you should not have come back
Obi: that reminds me of the time you fell in that nest of Gundarks!
Vader: how many times, YOU fell itnto that pit and I rescued you
Obi: ahh yes..
Vader: but on mustafar you left me to die *clash*
Obi: you can't win darth, if you strike me down i'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
Vader: ha! like i've never heard that before
Obi: from Palpatine huh? *clash*
Vader: shut up!!
Obi: why are we fighting?
Anakin: you know what you're right, lets bygons be bygons
Obi: that's the spirit, i've got someone i want you to meet, your son
Anakin: my son??? *activates lightsaber*
Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship was shown in the PT - especially in AOTC and the first half of ROTS. But let's be frank. No matter how close they became, Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship always had a cloud hanging over it, due to Obi-Wan's original feelings for Anakin and the deep suspicions of some fans that the latter was aware of them. Also, memories of Qui-Gon, along with the clash between Obi-Wan's conformist teachings and a student who was far from conformist. And don't forget, Anakin was torn between his loyalty to the Jedi Order and his love for Padme in both AOTC and ROTS.
Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship was not one that anyone could easily label. It was very complicated and ambiguous. Erasing of the impact of Qui-Gon's character would have made that relationship less interesting to me. Thank goodness Lucas incorporated the character into the story.
So basically, despite Anakin's crimes against the Jedi, Obi-Wan should still feel affection for him? Anakin accused Obi-Wan of turning Padme against him, he also tried to kill him... Sorry, I cannot see how no matter how close you are that you can still have some affection for that person after all those crimes. Anakin destroyed everything Obi-Wan lived for.
I have a close friend whose father was a child molester. He loved his father deeply until he passed away. He still saw the good that was in him (I didn't see any), but love has a way of blinding one's eyes and mind to reality.
Unconditional love is the product of saints at best and masochists at worst, not ordinary humans. FWIW I think Padme and Luke were saints. I just don't think Obi-Wan was evil for not being one.
Neither Padme nor Luke were saints. Padme changed her mind about "living a lie" and Luke wanted to save his friends despite his mentors' warnings.
It seems there are two opposite and mutually incompatible viewpoints:
A. If one truly is a friend, one will retain affection for the other irrespective of what the other one does - be it minor or major and if one is unable to retain affection despite the deeds of another, the friendship was never very strong to begin with.
B. Certain deeds in sheer magnitude are enough to fracture even the deepest of friendships
I don't see how concealing her relationship with Anakin disqualifies her from sainthood.
lol is this supposed to be a bad thing? It didn't quite turn out the way he wanted it, but no one (but himself) was harmed by his attempt to rescue his friends.
My comments here prove that I strongly advise listening to those wiser than yourself, but neither Luke's desire to save his friends or his actual attempt disqualify him from sainthood.
I'm no theologist, but I'm pretty sure that being a saint doesn't mean you're perfect. Some have been sainted for one action alone, and I think Luke's faith in his father qualifies him, imo.
I'd consider Padme a saint for sticking by Anakin even after the Tusken slaughter and at least initially after she learned about the younglings. Though she refused to stick with him once he made his intentions clear, she still didn't give up on him and insisted that there was still good in him. Which of course was true.
If I didn't know the end, I'd call them both fools.
Yes, just like Qui Gon Jinn did.
--"Master, is Darth Vader Anakin?" he asked after a moment.
--"Yes. Although the Anakin you and I knew is imprisoned by the dark side."
--"I was wrong to leave him on Mustafar. I should have made sure he was dead."
--"The Force will determine Anakin's future.Obi-Wan: Luke must not be told that Vader is his father until the time is right."
--"Should I take further steps to hide Luke?"
--"The core of Anakin that resides in Vader grasps that Tatooine is the source of nearly everything that causes him pain. Vader will never set foot on Tatooine, if only out of fear of reawakening Anakin.
Obi-Wan exhaled in relief. "Then my obligation is unchanged.
That is love, yes some people might judge it as foolishness, but if you totally judge people by "reason", how could you say that's still friendship?