main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Prequels or originals?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Rolf Larsen, Mar 8, 2014.

?

Which do you prefer: Prequels or Originals

  1. The prequels

    17 vote(s)
    23.0%
  2. The Originals

    29 vote(s)
    39.2%
  3. Both

    28 vote(s)
    37.8%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Well said, Sir! =D=

    Fighting over personal perceptions is precisely what makes me very wary to post in discussions anymore. Differences need not be cause for animosity or contention or acting like someone else is stupid just because they differ from you. This thread has become too technical for me anyway. I personally don't care what is CGI or model or set or stop motion. I care about what feels *real* to me as a fan. On the whole the OT will always tip the scales in that regard.

    With the exceptions of Dooku, Obi-Wan, Palps, and a handful of vessel, creature, and sabre effects the PT feels hollow and false to me. This does NOT make me a PT basher so please don't start. I have valid reasons why I like it less and I never will say that those that adore the PT can't.
     
  2. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Don't be wary, CA. We need you!
     
  3. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Except for Obi-Wan's scorched and sooted-up robes.

    And Kentucky Fried Anakin.


    * * *


    You're kinda right, though.

    Obi-Wan and Anakin seem to be fighting in a bubble -- until they aren't.

    This goes along with various visual themes encrusted in the PT (e.g., see the bubble imagery in TPM).

    I see the Mustafar duel as being excessive on purpose. What it lacks in grit, it makes up for in audio-visual splendour.

    IMO.

    Real people's eyes normally point in subtly different directions. Animal vision is by no means a perfect thing.

    And I can barely tell that Yoda's eyes lack moisture in the TESB shot.

    The Yoda shot you've chosen from ROTS is good for the facial expression and the reflection of lightning, in my view, but I believe he shows more photorealistic skin texture and movement elsewhere (like "Chapter 35: The Terrible Truth", for example).

    I mean, I hear your argument, PiettsHat, but the spirit of Yoda is very strong in the puppet, despite its limitations, in my opinion. I can understand resistance to the PT Yoda, even if I don't share those exact sentiments.

    Ultimately, though, it does come down to your last sentence: this is all subjective.


    That is interesting, but the issue here is not the one that appears on the surface. It is likely, in my view, that knowing something was done practically gives a comforting reassurance. It's not the aesthetic effect that's being chased, necessarily, but a guarantee that the film is functioning correctly as a time capsule, mummifying physical moments in time, to be enjoyed again and again. CG deprives people, by and large, of that pleasure, because digital is essentially a timeless construct, based on a finite set of data that can be mindlessly reconstructed according to a given data sheet or algorithm. Freezing the real-world has an entirely different psychological aspect: it's something that once was, held in suspended animation, essentially forever. Films are an immensely powerful cultural mechanism against the impersonal gears of death.

    Of course, it's absurd to exclude digital from that paradigm, because digital effects themselves come from mortal beings, and represent ideas and impulses arising at a certain place and time, but it's not quite the same as having a practical effect in the place of an artificially-constructed, abstracted one.

    I think some of the uproar is really about that. It's a deep-seated revulsion at discovering something you might have previously admired is fake. An illusion. A violation of an unwritten contract between film and film-watcher.

    We're in a digital age that is changing the rules. People are still struggling to understand and make sense of it all.


    * * *


    And with that, back to the broader OT / PT war...

    Great follow-up, Eddie.

    I actually see TPM as very mythological. The PT, basically, mythologizes nature, even as it exploits sophisticated levels of interacting technological approaches to execute itself. The varied locales, for instance, add a whole new texture to the mythological story-telling of the saga.

    Indeed, TPM is practically a vegetation myth writ large. Note, also, how beings like Amidala and Maul summon up the primal colours of nature, adorning themselves in ruby-red paint and jewellery. Amidala's finery is bewildering enough to be a language of its own. The film could be said to be about the rapacious essence of nature asserting itself in a civilized, stratified society; alternately used and shunned by the film's characters, even as it threatens to eat them up.

    I actually see the PT, and TPM especially, as a LOT more complex, wondrous, and troubling than the OT in this regard. The PT, and again, TPM in particular, are practically an epistle to nature -- in a highly symbolic way.

    I completely agree that Star Wars can be read like an "audiovisual epic poem". Very few people seem to have yet contended with this idea, even though the last of the movies came out nine years ago; even though Lucas himself has been hinting at it for even longer.

    It seems, I dunno, like people don't even want to try?

    Amiga_500 also contradicted themselves there, first saying that AOTC rips off "Blade Runner", then claiming that the PT is entirely inspired by the OT. Well, which is it? Does the PT draw from other sources or doesn't it?

    I have to say that "Blade Runner" is not the only influence in AOTC. Not even in that one scene. When the yellow speeder flies low over that canyon bit, just before the flames part, AOTC is jointly drawing on a similar shot in TESB, and also -- this has been missed so far, to the best of my knowledge -- a very similar-looking shot at the start of Danny Cannon's "Judge Dredd" (the 1995 Stallone picture). The Stallone film's plot is even centered on two brothers at odds with their view of law and society and involves the use of clones to subvert the existing order. Meanwhile, "Blade Runner" has rich themes concerning personhood and identity, slavery, dreams and memory, spectatorship and seeing, mortality, and letting go. AOTC, like all the SW movies, clearly scavenges from films which bolster its own themes and tonal architecture.
     
    Darth Eddie and Jarren_Lee-Saber like this.
  4. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Realistically, they shouldn't have survived being on Mustafur's surface never mind the prolonged duel.
     
    Yanksfan likes this.
  5. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2013
    So much this!

    After all, PT slammers never say "I just watched TPM for the 20th time and noticed ANOTHER thing I hate about it!!!"
     
    Andy Wylde and Jarren_Lee-Saber like this.
  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Well maybe because the "fake looking" guy in suit in really there but the "fake looking" CGI character isn't. So you have two illusions going on at the same time. In the former, we can see that the puppet or guy in suit is actually present because of the ligthing etc. In the latter, we can see that the animated CGI character is not even there. So instead of just the one, we now have two illusions and that can make it more noticeable or bothersome to some people.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
    MOC Yak Face, Sarge and Yanksfan like this.
  7. Rolf Larsen

    Rolf Larsen Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Ok, you're probably right on this one. But it still doesn't bother me.
     
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  8. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    No, the hallway was a miniature. It's compositing that bothers him, I guess? Damn shame those TIE fighters weren't shot in space!
     
  9. Rolf Larsen

    Rolf Larsen Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2013
    *post deleted by poster*
     
  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Not following.

    Are people supposed to watch a movie they hate more than once? Seems like a waste of time and money to me.

    (I've only seen the last hour and 30 minutes of ROTS once, and plan to keep it that way.)
     
  11. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2013
    Well that's not what I'm saying at all actually. People don't watch movies they hate, and as a result, they're not always a part of the same conversations.

    But you've only seen an the last hour and a half of RotS once? Not to shoot off in the opposite direction I was just in, but honestly that seems totally weird to me. Reminds me of a guy I know who denies the last half of Return of the Jedi becuase ewoks... granted I hate the lava-lightsaber ballet and a couple other over-blown elements from RotS but if you've only seen it once, it gives that part of the movie no time to grow on you.

    I only stopped being a prequel hater when I watched them over and over again.
     
    Darkslayer and Jarren_Lee-Saber like this.
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    My favorite character behaved like the worst version of an idiot, and a woman I had respected in the first two movies "lost the will to live."

    There is nothing about any of that, that I want to grow on me.
     
    TX-20 and Darth Eddie like this.
  13. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2000
    Personally, I've given the prequels plenty of time to "grow on me". When TPM came out in the theater, I wanted to love it. Seriously, it's not like I waited several hours on line just so I could rub my hands together and be like "Woohoo! I can't wait to gripe about this movie on the Internet!!" In fact, I was in a bit denial about how terrible it was. So much so, that I did indeed seriously go back and see it several times. After all, it was *Star Wars*, surely it wasn't as bad as it first appeared?

    Ugh, but it was. I tried the same thing with AOTC. As far as I'm concerned, those movies had their shot, but it was never meant to be. And it's a shame, because I sincerely wish I got the positive viewing experience out of it that so many on here seem to have gotten. But I just find them….empty. And boring. (Boring! I know, that's a terrible way to feel about a SW film, but it's true. Sadly.)

    And despite what many of you "PT lovers" may feel about us "PT bashers" (not my term for us at all, but whatever), it gives me no pleasure disliking these films. It makes me a little…sad. But I can't force it. And believe me, I've tried. *shrug*
     
  14. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Yep, no sense forcing it. I used to feel some odd type of geek/net culture pressure to proclaim ESB as "transcendent" or some such thing, but fortunately time has steered me into becoming more comfortable with my own taste.
     
  15. Rauno

    Rauno Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Call me crazy but i love the prequels. They have their bad moments but the good outweighs the bad by a heavy margin.

    Sent from my GT-S5660 using Tapatalk 2
     
  16. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I never saw the appeal of ESB, myself. Really about the only thing I like in it is the father/son reveal. I've also experienced fandom pressure to change my tastes but it's not happening unless I let it. We're all different and that means different things speak to us in a diverse array of ways. That's wonderful. Can we *please* stop fighting?
     
  17. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    I'm not trying to change your opinion but just to provide an example - the visual style, the basic look of the film, just really appeals to me. The score is my favorite. And the Force/Yoda/"Jedi" stuff works for me, mostly, too.
     
  18. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I'm sure the debate will simmer down with the completion of the ST.
    OT only, PT only, ST only, PT and OT only, OT and ST only, PT and ST only and whole saga.
    More groups diluting the numbers and vehemence of the groups we have have now should ease the fighting.

    At least I think that was what my Political Science Professor meant when many factions are better in the government than fewer.
     
  19. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    @Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn: Thank you. I'm glad ESB works for you, Sir. Just as RotJ is my fave because it is a redemption tale and shows the faith and power of a son's love for his father, The Emperor is *awesome* as well. Ian is one of the best performers in all of SW to me. No, I don't like the Ewoks, either. However, they aren't the worst thing in SW. I simply tire of needless tension because people like different aspects of the same universe. To me this should be cause of celebration not 'bashing' or putting down of others and it happens on both sides all the time even here.

    Force Smuggler: I fear the exact opposite will happen. I think the ST will only escalate a fractured fanbase.
     
  20. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Sorry if I seemed like I was going right back to tactics that we both find annoying and silly (telling someone their opinion is 'wrong') but I only provided my list because you said you 'never saw the appeal.' Personally, if I don't see the appeal of something, sometimes someone else pointing out stuff they like might help me notice things I never have before. It's no guarantee, but it just sounded like you were almost asking, is all. :)

    I don't mind the ewoks so much. They grate a little, but there are enough interestingly animalistic elements to them that they don't completely stop working for me. The first half of Jedi is a bit slow, for me, but has a lot of elements I like (the music as Luke steps onto the plank, then snatches his lightsaber, for instance, or the rancor swallowing the guard and then turning to look at Luke). The second half of Jedi is very good though, in my opinion. I miss the more... sensual? look and feel (as exemplified more by Empire) but everything works well anyway.
     
  21. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Like I said I might have misunderstood my Poli Sci Professor but more groups with less people feels like it should work better than now.
    The ST will tick some fans off but I am optimistic things will be better than they are now. Obviously we won't have 100% consensus that the PT/OT/ST saga will work and JJ Abrams involvement is controversial so we will have to wait and see. 2 very different trilogies in tone with another trilogy with a whole different tone on the way will shake things up. We might come to appreciate the other trilogy we don't care for currently. If each trilogy is different in tone it might ease the transition. Unless we all hate the ST when it is over.
    I doubt it could get more inflamed than it is now but what do I know?
     
  22. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2013
    Just wanna say, good thread, guys.

    I think this is the most civil and sensible OT vs PT discussions I've ever seen. Keep it up!
     
  23. Amiga_500_User

    Amiga_500_User Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2014
    AOTC is a sci-fi action adventure movie and as such WORLDS APART from being a noir movie (not even in parts). You really don't think that "Obi-wan's detective work" has ANYTHING to do with "30's" noir cinema, do you? For example, there's absolutely zero cynicism or sexual motivation to be found in AOTC, two very central themes of noir movies. AOTC may be "darker" than TPM, but it still is a sci-fi adventure film and nowhere near a depressing, grounded-in-reality, low-key-lit noir movie. The same is true with Padme's "melodrama". Her "drama" is presented very basically and by-the-numbers in AOTC. It lacks imagination and compassion and has also nothing to do with classical noir drama. If at all, AOTC does draw a lot of its visual style from BLADE RUNNER, a neo-noir movie.

    So we have romances in both of these trilogies, right? Nothing new to be found in the PT on this particular level (falsifying your argument). Au contraire, the "romance" presented between Anakin and Padmé is soulless und unimaginative. It's very basic love story stuff, full of horrible written dialogue. Just because they frolic in the fields and go on a vacation in a city that looks darn close to Venice, they must be in love, right? There's zero chemistry between those two characters and we never get to see why on earth they're in love in the first place. All we get to see is that Anakin seem to be sexually attracted to Padmé and that is all.

    How exactly does the PT "attack those themes headlong and direct"? Can you give an example, please? Because all I can find is a rehash of the themes found in the OT.

    Okay, now it gets kinda ridiculous. You may love the PT (and I may not), but don't make it more than it actually is. The same is true for the OT (which I love): It is - first and foremost - a sci-fi action adventure trilogy, light-hearted, very entertaining, full of lovable characters and ground-breaking special effects, and that is all. Yes, there are themes to be found below the surface (which the movies briefly touch upon) but stating that STAR WARS "has always been a study of comparative mythology" is nonsense. It may sound good, but nonsense it is, nonetheless.

    You also claimed that "the PT looked elsewhere for its inspirations, primarily tragedy but also mystery, prophecy and romance." These four themes you named can all be found in the OT and are a central element in the OT. The PT does nothing new there, nor does the PT "look elsewhere" for inspiration (on a story level; visually it does look elsewhere: BLADE RUNNER).

    It is unique because it show only one war???

    1.) "temptation and fall from grace" = also themes in the OT (falsifying your argument that the PT is unique in this regard)
    2.) "we see duplicitous process through which a benevolent society can become a dictatorship (like ancient Roman history)" = we don't get to see that connection you make up there

    I was trying to be funny, that is all. I don't think so at all. I know that GL wanted the PT to be like a rhyme to the OT (as he stated in the making of), but he failed and it didn't work at all. Is it so bad or difficult to say that he failed? I think not. It does not diminish his original vision (he had back in the 70's) or the things he accomplished back then. He just failed to repeat it on any level.

    That is true.
     
    Sarge and Yanksfan like this.
  24. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008

    In order for you to like certain characters, they have to be ideal or nearly ideal? I didn't realize that "losing the will to live" was such a sin among fans. How sad.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, losing the will to live is all sweet and emotional and romantic and stuff. Everybody should like it.
     
    TX-20 likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.