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PT Preserving the "I am your father" reveal.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The One Above All, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. The One Above All

    The One Above All Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Let's say you were writing the prequels: how would you have kept secret the fact that Vader is Luke's father, so that an audience who decides to watch the films in chronological order, is as shocked as Luke is when they hit Episode V?

    Alternatively, though, do you think preserving it was even necessary? I'll say that I have an idea on how to pull it off myself, but since it's very convoluted and not very well thought out, I might post it later when I have more time.

    But what do you think? Would you have tried to save the reveal, or would you have even gone to the trouble?
     
  2. Darthman92

    Darthman92 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Honestly, whilst it would have pleased a number of people to somehow preserve the surprise but I think it would just hurt the narrative flow of this trilogy too much. You'd have to obscure the chief character-arc of the trilogy, and by proxy its central themes, and thus dull its impact within these films in of themselves. So yeah, in my opinion anyway it was for the best that such a thing wasn't attempted even if they did somehow think of a way to make it work.
     
  3. Lady_Misty

    Lady_Misty Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 21, 2007
    The only way to preserve the Reveal would be to show the movies out of order. whether that is release order IV, V, VI, I, II, III and VII or IV, V, I, II, III, VI and VII or something like that but no matter how annoying some people find Jar Jar TPM is too important to cut out of the viewing order because it gives Anakin's backstory, shows how Palpatine got into power and other tidbits that bear some consideration. Did Obi-Wan's initial opinion of Anakin color their relationship and what did Obi-Wan's promise to Qui-Gon do to the former emotionally>

    Sorry, I have been accused of rambling.
     
  4. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    Show Darth and Anakin as different people
     
  5. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 9, 2005
    The only way to preserve the surprise, as it were, would be someone have to edit ROTS so that whole birth scene is taken out. Also the scene where "Ani, something wonderful has happened" has to go.
     
  6. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Darth Vader was the Sith Apprentice of Darth Sidious in the PT but was a former pupil of Obi-Wan's as well. Separate from Anakin Skywalker. Through out the trilogy, he got more and more mechanics added to him. Think Darth Malgus from TOR. Until the point in ROTS at the end of the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan and we see PT Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker burning on the shores of Mustafar. Next we see Palpatine talking to suited Vader. Which, one did he pick up? PT Vader? Or Anakin?
     
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  7. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013

    Nah

    In fact, I would argue that it has potential to work better. In addition - dramatic irony is always a nice touch
     
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  8. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Unnecessary creative mandate in my view. On its own I think the OT twist was pretty cheesy. I care far more about the direct drama and emotion I get from the PT freely telling its story.
     
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  9. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I wouldn't since the shock that he becomes Vader in the first place is the even bigger reveal.
     
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  10. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Even though I preferr going episode 1-6 I would show it to someone new to the whole thing as 4-6 1-3 thus problem solved.
     
  11. GreySaber

    GreySaber Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Watching 1 - 6 has its own twist of Anakin turning to the Dark Side, that could be seen as just as shocking as the "I am your father" reveal. So while when you get to it, you've had your shock twist and you already know that he's his father, in the same way watching 4-6 1-3 gives you the "I am your father" shock twist but by the time you get to the prequels you already know that Anakin turns to the Dark Side - which in my opinion is something that I love about the saga, you can watch it either way but there is still some element of shock! So I'm not sure preserving it is imperitave, especially since I feel every one who is every one now knows the twist anyway. I know many a people who have never watched even a minute of Star Wars but they do know the "I am your father" line at least
     
  12. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I go back on forth on this, but I agree it is designed to work both ways.

    The shock for a new viewer that Anakin becomes the main villain, is underrated by many that grew up on the OT first, I think.
     
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  13. QsAssistant

    QsAssistant Jedi Master star 2

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    Apr 13, 2011
    I think these days, for new viewers, the shock of Anakin becoming the villain at the end of the PT is greater than the shock of finding out that Vader is Luke's dad. Not to mention it leaves a lot to look forward to. How and when will Luke find out Vader's his dad? How and when will Luke and Leia meet and find out they're brother and sister? I think the best viewing order would be chronologically. Not to mention you get the worst film out of the way first.
     
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  14. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 27, 2016
    When watching the films in release order, the other big shocker that rarely gets mentioned is finding out the the bad guys (future stormtroopers) were originally the good guys fighting alongside the Jedi who were in service to the Republic which later became the Empire. That shot of Yoda in the Republic Gunship lowering down to the surface of Geonosis just makes your heart stop, thinking, oh s, what have they gotten themselves into?
    Seeing the Jedi sporting what the IV-VI viewer knows as the Empire logo is a deliciously jarring mind-f.

    Speaking as someone who grew up with the OT, I imagined there was always a clear-cut, black & white distinction between Palpatine's evil crew and the good Jedis.

    With that said, I am a strong proponent for watching them in numerical order.


    And, I have thought of this same thing before. My idea was to end RotS after Vader's immolation scene, so you don't know what happens to him, Padme, the baby(s), Yoda or Obi-Wan. When you start ANH you have to slowly figure it out. I also thought it would be best if the shots left out of RotS were used as flashbacks at the appropriate times throughout the OT.
    But yes, this is not the style of story-telling George thought was best for this saga and I'm completely fine with that. It doesn't need to be. (It would also be unnecessarily cruel to deprive the viewers of knowing Padme died in childbirth for so long).
     
  15. ForcePushUp

    ForcePushUp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2016
    A friend of mine, who is not a big Star Wars fan, got into an argument with his wife (who is a big Star Wars fan) about the order they show their kids.

    I took the wife's side.

    My friend's argument was "It makes sense to start with 1, 2, & 3 because its 1, 2, and 3! Why would you start with 4, 5, and 6 and work your way back?!". This led to me having to explain that the Episode IV deal was really just a throwback to the Flash Gordon serials and to make it appear as if the story was already in progress rather than bogging the entire first act down with exposition. That Episode IV basically told us that stuff happened prior to this that led us to this point, and everything we need to know from that earlier period gets revealed as the story progresses. And we get some throwaway lines like "My father fought in the Clone Wars" that reference past events and give a sense of mythos to everything, but aren't necessary to understand the main core of the story.

    But here's the thing about the OT and PT. The OT was made first. It existed long before the prequels and functioned just fine without it. You don't need the PT to understand the OT. The story of the OT functions perfectly without knowing the full backstory. Obi-Wan's expository speech to Luke and the opening crawl in A New Hope is pretty much all we need to know. And the Vader reveal is such a great twist because we didn't know it was coming. It was something we didn't expect, and it works better functioning that way.

    I mean would you rather start with Silence of the Lambs, or would you rather start with Hannibal Rising? I'd rather watch the film that started it and then watch the film that fills in the backstory (or just skip the backstory altogether if we don't need it).

    Another example: Even though the Hobbit was written first, in the Peter Jackson-Middle Earth-verse, it was LOTR and then The Hobbit. Would you rather watch LOTR first or The Hobbit trilogy? Personally, I'd stick with LOTR and not even bother with the Hobbit trilogy (if anything, I'd probably start with the animated Hobbit movie, lol). All the backstory we need is given to us in LOTR's prologue. The biggest mistake the Hobbit films made was feeling like it had to serve as a way to lead into the LOTR trilogy when really all we needed was Riddles in the Dark to have Gollum and the Ring. I don't need a lot of connecting the dots and foreshadowing for a war that doesn't need to be foreshadowed.

    And there is something to be said for watching the film that was made first. It was what started everything and got the ball rolling. Everything that came out after it has been made to capitalize on the success of and fit within the framework of that first film. For me, it makes more sense to watch IV, V, and VI because if I started with I, II, and III, it spoils some of the best stuff. Not just the Vader reveal, but the reveals of Yoda, Obi-Wan, The Emperor, and Jabba the Hutt (which that got ruined by putting him in A New Hope Special Edition, but that's a rant for another time). In Empire, Yoda gets built up to and when its revealed that he's just a little guy its a legit surprise, If you watch the PT first, then we're already 3 steps ahead of the movie and it just feels like they are wasting time.
     
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  16. cubman987

    cubman987 Your Friendly Neighborhood CT/PT/Saga Moderator star 6 Staff Member Moderator

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2014
    I really don't think it's necessary to preserve it. I also tend to recommend watching the movies in release order if it is someone's first time watching, that way you get the surprise anyways, assuming they somehow don't already know the twist.
     
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I just wish that Episode V in its current did not ruin it within the context of the OT. They could have left it as the "son of Skywalker" and left it ambiguous

    That way you could still watch the movies in IV-VI & I-III or I-VI order without spoiling either version.

    Subtext Mining makes a good point. The scenes on Kamino didn't need to reveal the clone armour and helmets. It was already enough of a mind-bender that someone, somehow, was about to receive an army of Bobas. But everything got diluted by being chucked at the audience on one go.
     
  18. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016

    Uh, no. Vader being Luke's father blindsided everyone and shocked the world. No one saw that coming. You can see Anakin slowly becoming Vader midway through AOTC. Wasn't a shock at all.
     
  19. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Funnily enough I just read a SF novel from the 60s with a similar father reveal, although not necessarily written as the work's definitive moment. Interesting how it reminded me of Star Wars, although in a less soap opera-like manner.
     
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    You would have remove a lot more scenes than that. You would half to cut the film in half.
     
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  21. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    I've grown to like the idea of viewing 4 5 1 2 3 6.

    Not only does it preserve the Vader father reveal, it also has a better introduction to the Emperor (in the flesh) for RotJ.

    One way the Vader/Father reveal could have been preserved longer might have been to have OB1 being the master in TPM with an apprentice that appears troubled and leaves the order, allowing Anakin to step in as OB1's replacement padawan. With Maul dead, AotC doesn't have Dooku but instead a mysterious new masked Sith apprentice. This would make it seem like ANH Kenobi told the truth and TESB Vader did indeed lie to Luke about being his father.

    Until RotS begins with the audience expecting the masked Sith is about to kill Anakin in the Coruscant duel. Instead, Anakin beheads the masked Sith and ...

    OMG, Vader did tell the truth.
     
  22. Nibelung

    Nibelung Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2017
    The best way to do it, of course, is to watch the films in production order: 4-5-6-1-2-3.

    This also has the immense advantage of letting you experience the ways in which the SW universe changed, grew, and shrank over time, as each film retroactively bent canon behind the scenes. A far more insightful approach than imagining the whole series burst out fully intact in a single moment from George Lucas' mind, like Athena springing forth out of Zeus' head.
     
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    As someone suggested, a way to preserve it is to have BOTH Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker in the films.

    Say both are pupils of Obi-Wan, Anakin is older while Vader is younger.
    And Vader turns to the dark side and betrays the Jedi, Anakin also turns but for different reasons.
    He gives into to his hate and goes after Vader wanting to murder him.

    They fight at a fire pit and both fall down. Palpatine gets there and finds one alive, but barely and burned beyond recognition.
    So he assumes that this is Vader and the suit is put on.

    It is not perfect as RoTJ does not really explain how or why this happened.
    And even if Palpatine does not know, why would Anakin answer to the name Vader?

    But the best way is to watch the films in production order.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  24. HaloWithStyle

    HaloWithStyle Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 11, 2015
    It's impossible to keep it a major surprise since both Anakin and Luke have the "skywalker" surname, that makes it obvious.

    But...

    For the poor souls who wouldn't make that connection we could've had Padme survive ROTS and not even find out she's pregnant.
     
  25. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    On the basis of the way this premise depends on not knowing the story it does.