PT Preserving the "I am your father" reveal.

Refreshing when somebody can admit they remembered a detail incorrectly or just that they have accepted what others have put forward.

I honestly was confused about what you were saying was pointless. I thought you might have just been saying the dialogue change in and of itself was unnecessary because all it did was make something more concise into something more verbose while adding nothing. That's why I posted the actual dialogue and changes notated above (partially for myself to recall as well).

 

Yeah. It was.

 

I could have swore that it was explicit that they were talking to Vader about his son. (I can even visualise/hear Vader saying "I have a son?" from memory.)

I stand corrected.

Or maybe I saw a different version.

 

I think you might have been influenced by the How it Should Have Ended YouTube Videos

"I have a son? I have a son !!!"

TBH, when you mentioned it (before editing to the Homer image), I thought "that sounds wrong, but I'm not positive it is". Especially since it was the implied but not spoken dialogue.

 

"I have a son? Yippeeeee! Now this is parenting!"

 

Never watched a How It.... video. But it may have been slipped in to some other vid from there.

 

Yes, you did know there would be IV-VI. At no point in human history has the prequel trilogy ever existed in isolation…and it never will exist in isolation. Only the original trilogy has ever existed in isolation. So no matter which you watch the films in, whether it be chronological order or release order, there will always be the original trilogy…and that fact is impossible to ignore. You either know that Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader because you’ve seen the originals, or you know there are still three more films to go after the prequels have concluded, in which case the story obviously doesn’t end with the prequels.

The only way for your supposition to work is for the originals to not exist…and if the originals never existed, neither would the prequels, so it’s a moot point.

 

Not in context of the way we were discussing them on a story only episodic basis not using outside knowledge.

Because if he use outside knowledge then the whole "Vader reveal" premise falls flat on it's face as that was revealed in 1980.

In this instance it's does. Again using it the way you present it then the Vader reveal is out and can't be unknown.

Actually with the new movies it eventually will be like it never was the first trilogy because now it's about the story not the release order.

No they would exist after I-III which again is the point being made here.

 

Here’s all it requires for a first-grader to know how many films there are in the series (for the sake of simplicity, we’ll just act like Disney never bought it).

DAD: I’m gonna show you the Star Wars movies. They’re really good and I think you’ll love them.
KID: How many are there?
DAD: Six.

I don’t know about you, but by the time I was in first grade, I could count to six.

It never did. The only time there were ever three films was before George Lucas decided to write and direct the prequels.

This is not an opinion. This is an indisputable fact. There has never been a point in human history where the prequels were the only three Star Wars films. Only the original trilogy has the distinction of being the only trilogy. As soon as Lucas decided to make prequels, it would always be the case that, from that point forward, Star Wars would either be a hexalogy or a set of trilogies. Either way, the original trilogy still exists, regardless of how you show them. If you show the originals first, they already know what happens to Anakin because the originals told them what happened. If you show the prequels first, they know that the story doesn’t end with Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith (2005). No matter which order you view it in, the story of Anakin Skywalker doesn’t conclude until Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi. That’s how it was before the prequels and the prequels did not change that.

Well, now it’s more episodic, sorta like the James Bond films. The original trilogy was a coming-of-age story about how Luke Skywalker developed from a naive young farmboy to a wise Jedi Knight. The prequels made it the six-part tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. Now, what’s it about? Everyone who was a character in the prequels is now dead (the last few survivors- Darth Vader, Palpatine, and Yoda- died off at the end of SW3). So what’s the continuing story thread? It’ll probably evolve more into something like Star Trek became during the 1990s, where you can sort of pick and choose which series you feel like watching, which ones you wanna skip, and which ones you just wanna give up on.

In fact, the Star Trek example kinda proves my point. Nobody regards Enterprise as the first Star Trek series.

Maybe in some Trumpian world of alternative facts, the original trilogy was made after the prequels, but back here in the real world, the originals were made first, and neither you nor Lucas can do anything to change that.

 

The interesting thing is, that it's completely obvious the OT can be watched in isolation. It was afterall constructed that way. I wouldn't say that about the PT with the same conviction. As many here argued about the Vader reveal, the PT wasn't created in a vaccuum, and much of TPM is essentially constructed as a prequel to the OT, in other words it to an extend assumes you've seen the OT, or are at least aware of it's basic premise. A good example of this is the first exchange between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan:

OBI-WAN : I have a bad feeling about this.
QUI-GON : I don't sense anything.
OBI-WAN : It's not about the mission, Master, it's
somethging...elsewhere...elusive.
QUI-GON : Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration
here and now where it belongs.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
QUI-GON : .....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the
living Force, my young Padawan.

Compare this to the exchange between Obi-Wan and Luke in ANH:

LUKE: How did my father die?
BEN: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who
was a pupil of mine until he turned
to evil, helped the Empire hunt down
and destroy the Jedi Knights. He
betrayed and murdered your father.
Now the Jedi are all but extinct.
Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.
LUKE: The Force?
BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi
his power. It's an energy field
created by all living things. It
surrounds us and penetrates us. It
binds the galaxy together.

You will note, that unlike ANH TPM makes no effort to explain the basics of the Jedi and the Force. Why? Because it assumes the viewer knows about Jedi and the Force, as any sequel would. Had TPM been the first film released it is highly likely it would have contained some sort of expository sequence explaining the background of the Jedi and the Force, while it's sequel ANH would probably not have such a sequence.

 

DrDre

I agree. When I showed the films to my son, the order was actually almost completely random, but I did make sure to show him the original film first (I still consider it the best introduction to the universe, and I think out of all of them, it works the best as a standalone film).

 

Which was rather the point as discussed above. Placing a scenario of the movies as stories outside of actual knowledge.

We're not talking about facts but a thought experiment of the story of Star Wars as the story is intended to be seen. In this scenario it's I-VI. IV-VI only happen after I-III. That is the basis we were working on before. If you want to on another one then fine but I'm just pointing that out.

They know he becomes Vader but they don't know what actually happened.

But they wouldn't know that Anakin becomes Vader until they would see it as above. Now of course people who've never seen the movies know that due to outside the movie knowledge.

The rise, fall, redemption and legacy of Anakin Skywalker.

Sort of but they are after all Episodes IV, V and VI. So obviously there are 3 parts before. As Lucas said the idea was that the first 3 had been done already but the audience missed them. That was the conceit. Luke's story of course is complete as such in IV-VI but the overall story of Anakin vs Sidious is not. That is in I-VI and is incomplete in just IV-VI.

Not really. It doesn't need to use dialogue to explain the Jedi and the Force because why? Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan ARE Jedi who use the Force. The explanation is in their actions. Obi-Wan in ANH is telling what was past. TPM is showing it in the present.

There is something to that of course but the above facts are overlooked and in relation to how Star Wars movies work and the way Lucas was able to fit the trilogies together. Luke doesn't know about the Force and little about the Jedi so he would still need to have it explained and let's face it, it's a pretty slight explanation compared to what many film-makers would have done in comparison.

Lack of explanation of the past abound in the OT. All the explanations (and there are many) are about what is going on in the present moment. Actually the PT if anything has less explanation as such in that sense because things are more shrouded as per the story intent.

See how well it all works out because knowing that Lucas gave all the "explanations" in the PT so the lack of the same in the OT works out extremely well. It wasn't some brilliant plan as such but he simply wanted as little dialogue explanation as possible.

 

Except there actually was a period of time after the release of the prequels where Disney hadn’t bought Lucasfilm. It lasted less than a decade, but it actually happened in the real world. There was never a period of time where only the prequels existed. I’m merely proposing a time travel experiment.

Don’t worry. I’m fully aware that you’re not dealing with factual reality.

But even if they watch it in the order that Lucas intends, they will still know that there are at least three films that take place after SW2005. So the idea that he’d resolve all of his previously inner conflict and darkness in that movie because it was the climax is erroneous because nobody ever considered it the ending of the entire saga. People either knew how it ended, due to having seen the originals first, or they knew that there were at least three more movies…due to the fact that there have always been at least three movies take place after the events of SW2005.

SW2005 doesn’t really answer any questions, since we know the answers already. Anakin Skywalker is seduced to the dark side of the Force and becomes Darth Vader. Chancellor Palpatine is revealed to be Darth Sidious. The Jedi are annihilated. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda go into exile on different planets. The democratic Republic is devoured by the Empire. Instead of answers, what we gain from watching SW2005 is details. These events come to life and we are presented with the opportunity to understand the particulars of each event. The jigsaw puzzle is complete.

They’d know if they guessed it…and it’s really not that difficult to guess that he’ll turn to the dark side. We’ve already seen him go on one killing spree before he turns. We’re already aware that he has very severe psychological and emotional issues, and that he has a very deep anger and resentment towards the Jedi for holding him back. He’s a ticking time bomb. It really shouldn’t surprise anyone when that bomb finally goes off. Lucas pretty spends the entirety of two whole movies flashing a giant neon light in front of the audience that says:

“HE’S TURNING TO THE DARK SIDE! HE’S TURNING TO THE DARK SIDE! HE’S TURNING TO THE DARK SIDE!”

It’s too heavily telegraphed and foreshadowed for anyone of average intelligence not to see it coming. The father reveal worked because it wasn’t telegraphed.

That’s what the first six movies were about. Now what are the new ones about?

a) It’s not about Anakin vs. Sidious until the last few minutes of SW3.

b) The story actually was known. The prequels just filled in some of the details. It’s like saying that Game of Thrones is incomplete because we don’t know the full story behind Robert’s Rebellion or that Harry Potter is incomplete because we don’t have a full account of Lord Voldemort’s first reign of terror. In fact, not knowing all the details can lead to some great twists.

Spoiler

Jon Snow is the secret love child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Severus Snape was secretly in love with Lily Potter and held a torch for her for the rest of his life.

Star Wars, of course, has the revelation that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker’s father.

 

When Star Wars was released in 1977 it was not Episode IV. More importantly the film is not constructed as such. It is constructed as the beginning of a story, where the events of the PT are backstory, context for the story of Luke and his friends, that is about to unfold. TESB and ROTJ were obviously called Episode V & VI, so it became a conceit of sorts, that we'd missed the first three, but even so it they were constructed as sequels to the 1977 film, completing the self-contained story of the OT, where Vader's redemption and the Emperor's destruction are essentially presented as the climax of Luke's story. Up till the mid-90s, when it was uncertain there would ever be more films, the events of the PT were still just backstory to the Star Wars saga, which at that time only had three parts. Now, with the PT Lucas set out to expand the story, creating an overarching theme of the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, which is fine. This however does not change the fact, that the OT wasn't written as such, and even the PT was to an extend written as the backstory to the OT. I would argue, that had TPM truly been the first film in a six film saga, it would have been structured differently, containing more exposition on the Jedi and the Force, as ANH logically did being the actual first film in the series. In this context Lucas' intended I-VI chronological order is a clear cut case of revisionism, because the release order of the films betray Lucas' original views with regards to the order in which the films work most effectively, which is to start with ANH. History proved him to be right.

 

But it was meant to be Chapter/Episode/Part 3/4/5 or whatever because obviously there was a whole story going on before with Obi-Wan and Anakin and Darth Vader and all the rest. Lucas then after the success quickly settled on 4 trilogies for 12 Chapters ala the chapter serials.

Well ANH is constructed as the beginning of the ongoing adventures of Luke Skywalker which was dropped pretty quickly once it became a saga about a family.

Except by the self-same logic you use above then it's really little different. Star Wars was not ANH to lead into V and VI. That was a different story going forward and different backstory. Sure the PT's basis is the backstory and history and set-up for the OT as movies but in story terms the way Lucas did it the OT is full of call-backs to movies that were made afterwards and the PT is full of call-forwards to movies that were made beforehand.

That is the brilliance of it all.

 

Actually, there is no evidence of this ever having been the case until after the release of the first film. No version of the script refers to it as Episode IV, but quite a few refer to it as Saga I. Even early into the pre-production of the second film, the drafts were referred to as Chapter II. Lucas eventually changed it to Episode II to avoid confusion with a Neil Simon play.

And yes, Lucas did intend for the original trilogy to stand on its own, if for no other reason than the fact that he had no idea whether he’d ever make more films, whereas the prequel trilogy obviously didn’t have to stand on its own.

 

Other than Lucas and Kurtz saying that was the case!

After he decided to end Star Wars after 3 movies which wasn't until after TESB. At the time of Empire VI was going to end Luke's story with Vader but the Emperor would continue on and Luke's sister would take over the protagonist role.

 

In which case they’re either misremembering what happened or just lying. If you look at the actual scripts and physical evidence from the time, there is no reference to the first film being Episode IV until a year after its release, around the time Lucas finished the second draft of the second film. In fact, the first draft was explicitly called Episode II.

Lucas deliberately designed the first film to work as a standalone, in case it didn’t do well enough at the box office to warrant a sequel. Obviously, it succeeded beyond anyone’s wildest dreams…and he designed SW3 so that it could wrap up all the loose ends, since he didn’t intend to make any more SW films after that. So yes, Lucas very deliberately designed the trilogy to stand on its own.

 

Seriously? They are both quite clear on the point. There are all sorts of things considered that we don't know of or even if we have an inkling not the thought that went into it.

This is about thoughts and Lucas private musings and notes not about what was typed down and passed around for anyone to see.

Actually it was Chapter 2/II. Then there was a Neil Simon movie called Chapter Two that was being made. So it became Episode II then however it worked exactly he went from The Adventures of Luke Skywalker Chapter/Episode II to the saga of the Skywalkers so it became Episode V.

Yes. As I said AFTER he had done TESB and totally abandoned the sequel plans past ROTJ. He didn't know he'd do anymore ever. Then at some point we don't know the idea of prequels kept nagging at him and if he was going to do any movies it'd be prequels. He allowed the sequels (or rather events after ROTJ) to be done by others in book form.

 

Great question!

I've wondered a lot about it and I got an idea.

Firstly, I would suggest the Sith had always 2 classes: Darth Sidious (master) and Darth Vader (apprentice).

So, there would be not a "Darth Maul" or a "Darth Tyranus". Both would be called "Darth Vader". Again: it would not be a name, but a class in the Sith hierarchy.

Before Sidious had sent Anakin to Mustafar, he would have promised the boy he would grant him the title of "Darth Vader" if he had killed all the Jedi and the Separatists.

The battle of Anakin and Obi-Wan could have been shown until the moment when Anakin get burned. Anakin would be considered dead by Obi-Wan and by the audience.

So, when Darth Vader appears in episode 4, this "new" character would be considered a new enemy, someone Sidious has found some time along those 20 years of Empire.

 

I've stated several times that I'm operating withing the confines of the absurd hypothetical universe put forth in this thread where these things aren't ubiquitously known. I've stated several times that this entire discussion is actually moot for that reason, but I'm entertaining the hypothetical anyway in order to show that it doesn't matter even in the absurd hypothetical. Perhaps you missed me saying those things several times. It's okay, I forgive you.

Cultural knowledge didn't "ruin" anything. That is, in fact, the main thrust of everything that I've been saying.

How convenient that the scientific study which disproves your argument turns out to be "incredibly flawed" for nebulous reasons. That seems to happen a lot on the Internet for some reason.

 

It's flawed. Calling that study science is a discredit to science.

 

Is that so?
I guess you read the actual research work and found very specific flaws in their scientific work that you can now write down for everyon to see?

Because if you didn't read it, your claims are simply absurd. You can't just put a claim out there that they didn't follow the scientific process, or that their work "discredits science" unless you actually have something to back it up with. Science doesn't work by claiming everything you disagree with to be wrong or to be not scientific.

 

Oissan
Did you? Because even in the synopsis, it concludes with

And here was my take on it.

Seems I understood it better than the people citing it.

 

Quite. By this logic then TESB should continually lose impact into nothingness yet for some reason that is clearly inexplicable that has not been the case.

Odd one that.