PT Princess Leia's upbringing

No, I see a universe where a magical energy field grants images and visions of "those long gone."

 

And I see a rubbish story that is not well put together because it's creator did not care to do so

 

i also think photographs may exist in the SW universe so she may well have seen images and had feelings, well they have Light Speed.....

 

Um, cool, I guess? This type of "well take that!" response seems a bit unnecessary. I was simply clarifying your putting of words into my mouth (I never said anything about "babies forming memories").

 

then why on earth watch if it you think its rubbish?

 

I'm contrasting our positions. Your defense of this plot point is based on the idea that you see the explanation as reasonable, I do not. The whole "force catchall" thing doesn't work unless it's somehow established in the film. It's not. And as has been discussed, was not even in the mind of the people writing the story at the time.

These two films do not match. I find the explanations intended to make them match to be hollow and transparent. It is what it is. You don't have to agree with me, just as I don't have to agree with you.

 

I generally don't watch the PT that much anymore.

And when I do, I am well aware of just how much these two film series do not match up

 

'a rubbish story that is not well put together because its creator did not care...' sounds like an attack on the whole saga...the birth of the twins, Leia's life as an adopted daughter was always partof the story in my mind

 

When you look at the saga as a whole, the logic problems are pretty glaring.

 

Obviously. Which is why I never took issue with our disparate readings, but rather with the idea that I am being intellectually dishonest/objectively wrong if I honestly believe this issue does not qualify as a plot hole.

 

Let me ask you a question, and depending on your age you may not be able to. But if you are old enough to have seen Return of the Jedi before the prequels were made, did you honestly come away from that film feeling that the plot told you Leia was using some sort of force power, or answering direct questions about her memory by actually relating her memories?

 

No, but when I first saw ROTJ I was naive enough to think of memories in an absolutist, 100% accurate sense, and likewise I never really paid that much attention to lines about "images and feelings" and Force visions. But yeah, I did assume she was talking about her birth mother, just as I assumed that the father Luke and Obi-Wan talked about in ANH was not Darth Vader.

 

works for me - and is still pretty popular despite flaws - but the flash gordon saturday morning matinees on which they are based had flaws too, they were never meant to be perfect, just decades of over analysis have eroded the suspension of disbelief, we are also living in a more cynical world than we were in 1983. I even love the point of view dialouges, and the Obi Wan house conversation with Luke still works for me too,albiet you can see writer(s) workin with the story continually throughout the saga trying to make a story lasting millenia work as well as possible. Lucas had no way of knowing how popular his creation would become, nor how derided. I doubt those amazed kids in 1977-1983 or indeed the kids of 1999- 2005 noticed any issues...the scene in ROTJ with Luke and Leia is fairly forced tbh but we all know why, GL did not think he would ever get the chance to develop the story so had to rewrite and condense.

 

I would not say you were naive. You took the story as it was intended. If they wanted you to think of her recollections in terms of the force, they would have told that story. They didn't, because that was not the story they were telling. Now, to make this whole mess fit together, we have to change what that scene meant. We are expected to make it fit. The plot didn't address this.

This is why it's a plot hole, a story should not ask this of it's audience.

 

ive always loved stories that change the viewers assumptions, i am totally convinced by the obi wans house scene even more after the PT. That is the scene, where the used universe, the fact that this is just another episode in a long long story hits home thanks to Alec's wonderful acting, for me when i watch this now i can feel i can see his duel on Mustafar replaying in his mind and him thinking to himself, i really cant tell this lad it was i that killed his father/turning him into DV or tell him the truth about him slaying all those children.

 

That's not a plot hole, that's a retcon.

How Leia has "images and feelings of her mother" is (1) explained in ESB, and (2) even if it weren't, not a plot hole, as it's not part of the plot.

 

retcons can create plot holes, this one most definitely did.

The scene in Empire is in a context of Luke having a vision. He was aware he was having a vision, and Yoda explains this aspect of using the force. It happened during training, while he was in a meditative state. He was training to connect to the force, and so he did.

This has nothing to do with Leia, totally different context. And it's a different context because Return of the Jedi is not telling us this version of the story, it never was.

 

But here's the thing-- in this instance I don't at all mind the films "asking this" of me. In fact I like that initial assumptions weren't the whole story here, and instead of a mundane memory taken as gospel the situation is re-framed as something more ethereal, mysterious, and dream-like. That initial viewing of ROTJ and whatever assumptions I first had upon watching it aren't more official to me because they came before the six-film saga sequence as I see and appreciate it now.

 

But whether or not a person minds it isn't really that relevant. Again, this goes back to the definition of the thing. It is what it is regardless of how we feel about it.

And it's not about assumptions. This isn't an assumption, this is the plot of the story as given to us. And then ignored by Lucas.

This is a plot hole. You can still like it, writers sometimes use plot holes intentionally. Whether or not it's well received or intentional does not change that it is a plot hole.

 

Wasn't this thread originally about Princess Leia's upbringing, rather than what is, or what isn't, a plothole?

 

No, the very first line of the OT is about an argument over the continuity of this plot point. We are on topic 100%

 

Whether or not Luke was in a "meditative state" has little to do with anything, as the movies establish that Force visions can come out of nowhere. You not accepting a retcon doesn't make something a "plot hole."

And even if it were unexplained, it's still not a plot hole, as it's not part of the plot. Do you understand what "plot" means?

 

Sure...........................Whatever you say

I need a lesson in plots...........................ha

 

Sigh. I take it that's a big "no, I have no clue, and I don't care" then.

 

The situation as I see it does not go against the possibility or logic of the established narrative. Not a.............plot hole..........for me.