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Lit Pro-Empire

Discussion in 'Literature' started by zchmrkenhoff, Jan 4, 2017.

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Would a pro-Empire book series benefit the franchise?

  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    33.3%
  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    It's a lot more awful and prevalent on a local level. In a New Dawn, the Empire is basically awful on every level from the smallest to the largest and it's not a particularly notable world. They have a department for the surveillance of everyone after all.

    Lothal is shown to be similarly oppressed and it's in the middle of nowhere.

    We also see them using starvation tactics and more throughout Rebels.
     
  2. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    The quick ascendancy of the New Republic may have a great deal to do with longer lifespans in humanoid species - thus the reign of the Empire appearing even more monetary - as well as the simple fact that most planets barely noticed the difference. And none of this is to say that the Empire was good, or could be good - my stance there is well documented - so much as that the Empire wasn't interested in minutiae if it didn't have to be, and that mere competence is not a bar to aspire to.

    [quote="Charlemagne19, post: 54071737, member: 251830"Lothal is shown to be similarly oppressed and it's in the middle of nowhere.[/quote]
    Lothal has a very heavy Imperial presence, however, due to the factories. It also strikes me that frontier worlds are always going to be a little more brutal.
     
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    That was certainly Mon Mothma's goal. Others, not as much. See: Rogue One novelization.

    The point might also be made that Jelucan is a petty world with petty officials -- Ciena was educated on Coruscant, and she saw full well how differently Coruscant operated from Rimward institutions. I'd also caution against treating a minor functionary as emblematic of a whole. The Empire contains multitudes.

    The Empire that is seen in the films is not the Imperial government, but the Imperial military. We have a focus on counter-insurgency operations. What sort of infrastructure and law enforcement are we looking for here?

    Your examples are faulty. Governor Pryce was present and administering from Lothal until just before the Ghost team became operational -- we see her attending a reception in Edge of the Galaxy, and she's only called away to Coruscant later. I suspect we'll learn more when the Thrawn novel is released.

    As far as Tarkin -- you're quite right about him, but I observe that Krennic did, in fact, issue evacuation orders and that (as far as was reported to him), all Imperial personnel were evacuated from Jedha. He says as much to Tarkin. That a single stormtrooper unit did not make it off due to a communication lapse is hardly indicative of Krennic having a lack of concern for evacuation. By this standard, one might as well argue that Princess Leia did not care about her planet being destroyed because she wouldn't disclose the location of Yavin IV.

    I'm certain that the internecine warfare between Imperial forces and the deliberate sabotage of Imperial positions by the traitor Gallius Rax had a bit to do with it, too.
     
  4. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    I think the Alphabet Squadron series has done fairly well at presenting Imperials as more than moustache-twirlers without veering too far into treating them sympathetically.

    Rather than anything "pro-Empire", I hope to see projects like The High Republic continue to lay the groundwork for Palpatine's eventual popularity and the willing descent into an autocratic regime.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
  5. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I mean i think that's powerful right?

    Regular people capable of making the most horrible decisions. Like outside their job they are just normal everyday folk who probably are pleasant to be around and even good to their families. But then they can do things like Operation Cinder without batting a eye.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2021
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  6. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    From the out-of-universe perspective, no, Star Wars should not ever have anything that's pro-Empire. That would just be messed up. Sure, we can make them a bit more complex or morally gray to a certain degree. But to go all the way and say that the Imperials were the good guys? Uhh, no.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
  7. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I don't think HR need to go anywhere near the PT areas as not only are those far later, but if the galaxy was more pro-Empire far earlier, the Clone Wars would not have been needed.

    Alphabet Squadron trilogy is a clever bit of a work in how it constructs the idea of moral complicity, with a clear indication that the majority of those who were of the "good soldiers follow orders" outlook will be haunted to the end of their days by their actions in executing Operation Cinder.
     
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  8. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    It doesn't need to be overt. I think that the Nihil attack at Eriadu does a lot to add context to Tarkin's attitudes, for example. It should still be several steps removed from the PT.

    The High Republic era is a good time to seed understandable fears and attitudes, which are eventually corrupted and twisted by Palpatine over his 13 years as Chancellor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  9. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    The problem I have with that is Tarkin is 200 years hence, it's too big a gap for a throughline. It's reminiscent of how the Legacy comics' 80-odd year time jump got dismissed. The last year should be ample evidence for how much can happen.

    The other element is its the sincerity of the HR is what sets it apart from all other SW stories for me. Start deconstructing that and it risks becoming just another bad government SW story.
     
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  10. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    I think a billion deaths could definitely lead to an ingrained hatred of pirates which lasts a couple of centuries.

    I don't think it will become that, but there has to be some degree of reflection on the Republic's flaws at that time. Otherwise the entire HR series is pretty inconsequential. That's why I think they pushed the Golden Age aspect so hard, it's to give plenty of room for things to go downhill without reaching TPM levels of corruption and inertia.
    ---
    A question I have is how much humanity can you give individual Imperials before they become too sympathetic? I think there is value in showing that average people are susceptible to believing propaganda and having their principles eroded, but it's extremely important that it be executed well. Ciena from Lost Stars is likeable despite being Imperial, but there are very specific reasons why she stays that wouldn't work for other characters, and aren't especially relevant to our reality.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  11. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    So far, Into The Dark did a good job of showing the Jedi's flaws without puncturing the general feel, so it can probably be done for the Republic - haven't read the new books yet though.
     
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  12. Xammer

    Xammer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2009
    We'll have The Acolyte for that.
     
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  13. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    The Jedi definitely continue to have personal flaws through wave two. As for the Republic, there are some hints and some subtext but nothing yet that's risen to the level of overt or even thematic content imo.
     
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  14. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Eh, we already have the whole PT era for that, plus it is centuries removed from the fall.

    I would rather it actually focus on the good sides of the Republic, of actually showing it at its height - you say such a thing is inconsequential, but I disagree strongly. After all, the Republic does willingly accept authoritarianism, it is true, but temporarily, they overthrow it afterwards and return to a republic - and I think it is important to lead into that event as well. Show why people were willing to fight and die for the Republic in the clone wars, why the Rebel Alliance's full name is the Alliance to Restore the Republic, why it lasted a thousand years in the first place, why Palpatine couldn't get rid of the senate for 20 years until the death star was ready, and why even die hard imperials called getting rid of it a mistake later. Focusing on the reason for the fall at the expense of the reason for rising again seems wrong to me, since the fall is mostly backstory for the rising again which was the focus of the main movies.

    Heck, one of my favorite bits of the Dark Horse Republic comic series back in the day was Palpatine quietly admitting that Bail Organa is the person who frightens him the most, because Bail represents what the Republic once was and could be again.

    And I want to see that, rather than doing like what the legends Old Republic did and treating the senate's incompetence and corruption in the PT as an eternal state of affairs.

    Maybe there could be some things we know go bad later, like seeing the Trade Federation get founded to protect shipping or just as a side effect of the general prosperity, and it looks there is definitely going to be something that makes the jedi more cautious and insular, but overall I don't want decline to be a major theme because it is pretty much a major theme of everything but the ot.
     
  15. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Should there be Pro-Empire work, I will shock people and say, no. Maybe not that shocking. I could say maybe as a subversive work, where people talk about how good the Empire is (say they talk about the security and we see people getting robed as they talk) but that would likely go over people's heads.

    With making Imperials sympathetic, it needs to be limited. An issue I had with some legends work was that it seemed like every-other Imperial is a noble sympathetic character, which reaises questions about why they would go along with the Empire. So a balance is needed. Lost Stars does this well, we have a defector Imperial, a sympathetic Imperial and a really evil one. I feel Victories Price goes to far in making the Imperials the same as the NR, but I have said my piece on that.

    On the HR, while I would like to see the end of the golden age, it is important to see that golden age first. You need to build the fire before you burn it down. It's not tragic if a pile of ashes catches fire, something needs to be lost for the tragedy to happen. If the galaxy was always a bad place then how is the Empire different?

    So I think HR needs to show how good the Republic and Jedi are. We can see the flaws, the seeds of the downfall (I would for the HR to end with them turning off Starlight Beacon and retreating), I don't think things should be bad.
     
  16. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    I think Tia Toon in The Rising Storm illustrates the ideal quite well. He expresses some sentiments we see again during the PT, but he is very different from Palpatine, and the politicians of this era appear to be acting in good faith.
    ---
    I'm curious whether many people would change their votes in the above poll if they could.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  17. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    A big problem for any pro-Empire story is making it interesting and the characters especially. This is where both Inferno Squad and Alphabet Squadron fall down. The "heroes" in one were a nasty bunch of bastards, while apart from Keize, Shadow Wing were lacking villains.

    But could anyone make it work? I'm very sceptical. It's hard to make anything-for-the-mission types heroic. Similarly the will-do-anything-to-win Keyser Soze type. While both types have been pushed in real life, popular culture hasn't really followed it save for Jack Bauer and co.
     
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  18. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I would say, he more than the Chancellor is the anti-Palptine.

    Not many if any I expect. Star Wars fans like the Empire.

    Having the Empire as a view point is, I think anyway, different from being 'pro-empire'. The Original Battlefront 2 is only from the view of the 501st but I wouldn't call it pro-empire, since it shows them doing bad stuff.
     
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  19. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    There's a difference between liking the Empire and wanting pro-Empire content though.

    I like the Sith. I wouldn't vote for one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  20. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    True.

    Well for me it would depend on the Sith's policies (jk)

    But this thread was made in 2017, so it's not that long ago.
     
  21. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    For me the big disconnect with the empire, which I find the most disturbing is that, both in Legends and the New Canon is that we see a lot of mid to higher level people being shown rather sympathetically. From Vader and Thrawn (who only ever wanted to stop the Vong/Grysk) over Baron Fel (who despite being the empires greatest ace apparently never had anything to do with a single warcrime) to Cienna (who is in many ways no better than Windrider just justifies her actions differently) and Kylo Ren (who has a good reason to be Lukes enemy but that doesn´t justify joining the first order)...

    Meanwhile the common soldiers of the Empire are given basically zero sympathy, and now the 501st or Hand of Judgment aren´t common soldiers. They are just killed by the dozen and the heroes only reaction to that is at best a jokeing one liner. That being despite the fact that its explicitly stated that the imperial army is at least partially forcibly recuited or in the case of the Clones(who they continued using in legends) outright military slaves(though that also applies to the Jedi and the old Republic). And yes you have token lines like Luke, who mind you wanted to go to the imperial academy himself, briefly aknowledging that a lot of people where on the death star when he blew it up, but that never goes anywhere. Neither did Finn as a character who goes to happily shoot his fellow brainwashed slaves within seconds after breaking free...

    So if they did stories I think they should focus on the lower level of the empire, on the common soldiers. Tell their stories. But of course that wouldn´t really be pro empire.
     
  22. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    Finn needs to actually talk to his fellow stormtroopers, especially if he is now a Jedi. TRoS seemed to have little interest in dealing with that, it just kicked the can further down the road with Jannah and Lando's daughter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  23. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    It was a major plotpoint in the original IX draft, so I imagine the idea will be picked up later.
     
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  24. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    In Hutt Gambit, Fel is part of a task force sent to slag Nar Shadda and while he is not 100% ok with it he is going along with them (they lose the battle that is what stops the attack).

    So these 'sympathetic' people, I find more as self justifiers.

    Who is Windrider?

    But yes we never see much from the average trooper. Even in legends we only really get Bf2 and Tie Fighter (which I would call pro-empire).

    I mean the troopers might as well be droids for all the sympathy they get. Even in Rebels where we see inside a training academy, they still just get mowed down like wheat.

    Hopefully it gets picked up in the future. But if we don't have empire enemies for a while I would not mind.
     
  25. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    That for sure, yet seeing Luke Han and Leia be all friends with these people, while at the same time demanding their newphew/son has to die for far lesser crimes than what the empire did...

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Nash_Windrider
    Another character from Lost Stars, he is from Alderaan and kind of goes insane after its destruction, becoming fanatically comitted to the empire. Cienna constantly states how morally superior she is to him but again she also is absolutley loyal and doesn´t even have the insanity excuse.

    BF2 is a brainwashed slave soldier, and wasn´t Baron Fel said to have been the TIE fighter protagonist?

    True, SW needs to move on with new storylines but showing the common soldiers perspective of the war would be great.
     
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