PT Pro-Prequel Trilogy Youtube Analysis - Now Discussing Plot

Ah, so it's a bit like a Kurlan Naiskos thing then?


Alright, that makes sense then - with the qualifier that this connection isn't stated or implied in the movie, as far as I'm aware of.
I also don't get why it's a theme in this movie, but nowhere else in the series

 

Hm, yea, I kinda thought since it seems to be based or reminiscent of "romance novels" maybe familiarity with that genre might crack the code...

But for the time being, I'm not talking about just the fact that these different tones are all there, but that the way they're combined is incoherent. And not in an "erratic human behavior" way either, but more like "several genres/scripts at once" way - unless that's also a genre feature?


Also I cringed at the same moments where the onlookers cringed inside (such as Typho, or Padme herself), pretty sure it was intentional.

 

Aaaaand this is exactly why I'm interested in joining the discussion of the romance.

I'm not really even sure what is "incoherent" about it. It makes sense to me. Boy longs for girl, girl longs for boy albeit secretly. They engage in mild flirting and foreplay. He declares his love, she rebuffs him for reasons. She declares her love at the last possible minute. They get married.

I have a list of books with exactly this plot on my bookshelf. It's like, too many to count.

Also LOL at the romance novel quote marks. It's only the most popular and lucrative genre of books. No big deal.

 

Well, I'm not familiar with any as of yet, so when I'm saying it "reminds me of romance novel", what I'm referring to is the popcultural osmosis of what a romance novel is - hence scare quotes, cause osmotic images are often inaccurate or distorted, and I tend to be self-aware




Well, you say "she rebuffs him for reasons" - those reasons are either that he makes her uncomfortable with his awkward behavior or she's not attracted, or that she loves him but they can't due to their social positions etc.

The first is kind of realistic and uncomfortable.
The other is epic drama.

I think the movie can't seem to decide which of those is true - fireplace scene seems like both simultaneously (Padme talking about "it would ruin us" but actually looking quite uncomfortable - but I don't get the sense that that's the angle the scene's going for), the luggage packing scene she has a motherly attitude towards him but rebuffs his seductive gaze as uncomfortable, then at the lake she's attracted, and before the arena it's purely "I love you but consequences".

2 scripts at once, like.



Also, the succession of scenes - first she's uncomfortable.
Next thing, she playfully tells Dorme how her hot friend's gonna look after her (clearly the tone she's picking there) while Anakin smirks from behind - clearly no friction there.
Then he gets all narcissistic at the palace.
Next thing at the lake, that uncomfortable moment (and any previous uncomfortable moments) may as well have never occurred.
On the meadow, it doesn't really look like they kissed and then stopped awkwardly - there are some hints, but all the uncomfortability is gone.
The dinner scene is consistent, but then it cuts straight into the fireplace, and it's uncomfortable again, and dramatic which comes out of nowhere.

You could take all those scenes and swap their order at will and they wouldn't make less sense for it.
At least those are the conclusions that I came to...

 

To be honest, I always thought it would be cooler if the Dooku and the Separatists were actually a ''third faction''. Just not lackeys of the Sith. In the essence that is what their leaders were. TCW confirmed there were some people who genuinely believed in the Separatist cause but these are probably are low on the Separatist ladder to make an enough of a influence. I got the impression, the Separatist movement was actually a genuine movement but it was co-opted by the Sith for their selfish goals.
goals. The Separatist movement couldn't have been something that Darth Sidious completely concocted by himself, it was a response to the growing declining state and the corruption of the Republic.


I would make Dooku more of a renegade Jedi who truly believes the Republic is too corrupt to be fixed and controlled by the Sith. Not a Sith Lord who is playing both sides. He is also managed to convince 10- 15 percent of the Jedi order to defect with him. Thus the Clone Wars become a sort of Jedi civil war.

Although this would make the plot even more confusing and lead more politics in the plot.
Lucas probably decided to make the Separatists just lackeys of the Sith to make narrative less confusing.

You could probably combine Darth Maul and General Grievous into one character.

 

Alright, that's a cool theory you've got there, perhaps even interpretation - from what I can tell, consistent with what's happening on screen. But that's all it is.

-You're making lots of assumptions that aren't contained in the movies.
-You're proceeding from the premise that the scripts are flawless, and were all fully formed from the beginning - possibilities like "self-contradiction" or "retcon" don't seem to enter your mindframe, despite being just as plausible
-When you cite things that are in the movies, you don't stop to evaluate how well they are implemented.


Now keep in mind, what RLM do is film criticism. Even when their arguments are nothing but plot deconstruction (which isn't always the case, by far), the reviews maintain the pretense of film criticism.

Considering how well things are implemented (like the Prophecy that gets mentioned in cliff notes), considering the possibility that there are any retcons (such as "and destroy the Sith" added on top), or inconsistent characterization (Windu weirdly in support of Anakin against Obiwan's skepticism, while in I and III it's the other way around), and avoiding "filling in the blanks" (blanks in the movies that are being criticized) is quite a big deal when arguing in that context.



So in the current form, I don't think you'd do a good job of "rebutting RLM" - they'll just tell you that you assume perfection and enhance the plot with your own thoughts, while they make no such assumptions.
And your rebuttal is just gonna add to their impression that they're the reasonable party, and their opponents are "fanboys".

I can refute RLM's points without falling into any of those pitfalls - instead of proposing my own fancy interpretations, I can just replace their sloppy film analysis with accurate one.

 

The problem is lack of exposition, and a poorly structured "erroneous belief -> twist"... structure.

In order to keep things from confusing, one needs to establish the basics:
-What is the Separatists' stated motivation, as known by all the officials and protagonists?
-Or is it mysterious, and no one knows for sure?

Then you go from there:
-Maybe they've stated that they're fed up with the corruption as witnessed in EpI - but then spies (Obiwan) find out the TF, part of that corruption, is joining in - this creates doubt regarding their honesty.
-But then Dooku tells him that the TF's converted after being betrayed by Sidious, who's at the top of this corruption, and the Separatists are closer towards untangling the web than anyone else... but absolute secrecy must maintained!

Or:
-You don't know what they want - maybe they're fed up with the corruption?
-Then Obiwan finds out that they ARE the corruption - the disgruntled TF and a bunch of other shady folks have returned with a vengeance to invade yet more planets with yet more evil robots.
-But then Dooku says...

etc.



You've got the two possibilities:
1) rebels against the corruption
2) the corrupt seceding after Palpatine smoked them out, as he promised
2a) this was what the TF was pursuing in secret back in TPM

Then maybe some back and forth reveals.

And finally the revelation that Sidious is behind them, or both Sidious and Tyranus are, or that Sidious has foreseen it and manipulates it, or that he's simply in cahoots with them as he's always been.



This all arranged into an organized structure.

AOTC didn't succeed at doing that:
-At the start, you don't know what the Separatists are to the protagonists, or whethe the protagonists know anything at all

-In the court scene, they suggest that they might turn to the TF for help - so it can't be anti-corruption as the TF was at the heart of said corruption
-On the other hand, Palpatine apparently failed at restoring justice, as the Senate is powerless (Gunray's still in power)... so why's the TF seceding when the Republic's apparently still their kinda environment?

-then Dooku tells the corruption narrative - going against Padme's (and, by extension, everyone's) assumptions, but this plays no role in the dialogue
-turns out to be in cahoots with Sidious, orchestrating the war - does Gunray still think Sidious betrayed him, now trusting Dooku, or was that also a lie?
-in III, it's casually shown that, yes, it was a lie - he's still chatting with the hologram, business as usual



So this is quite an issue in this trilogy.
Whatever plot version you might wanna go with (3rd party, lackeys, corruption, anti, etc.), it ought to be structured and organized, and none of the plot points just left out, as they are in the movie.

 

I wouldn't use what I said in this post to rebut RLM in any way.

This is my own interpretation of the film that I want to share with others. In short, I think if a film is open to multiple interpretations that don't contradict what appears on screen, then people should go with the richest interpretation of that work of art. I've read other "rich" interpretations of other aspects of other films. They've increased my appreciation for those films.

If I was going to make an anti-ROTS RLM rebuttal, I would focus on how most of RLM criticisms would apply equally well to OT; I would point out how the review is fulled with half-truths, lies, and misrepresentations; I would take snippets from "Half in the Bag" episodes and his Trek review to show that all he likes is conventional formulaic films; and I would approach it with a sarcastic tone, like I used in this post: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...o-reject-the-pt-se-and-george-lucas.50033034/

But regardless if I've convinced you or not, I don't think you're the one who will be doing the hiring for this project, so actually I'm starting to wonder why I've replied at all.

 

Hm, an interpretation like that is a viewer's extension of the narrative, not the narrative itself - if I wanna watch the movie in the context of my headcanon or whatever, that's not the same as watching the movie for what it is.

There's a huge difference between an interpretation such as "Kevin Spacey WAS from K-Pax", and one such as yours - one flows out of the movie, which pretty much leaves you no choice but to interpret; the other adds a hidden narrative on top of what is already self-sufficient plot that is different from the interpretation.

The actual real flaws in 4 and 5 are of substantially lower degree - the bogus criticisms, of course, would "apply" to any movie as you could make up bogus criticisms for any movie

There are some double standards there, though.

Are you gonna leave out the snippet from the Titanic review that disproves that all he likes are conventional formulaic films?

Also, I and III are conventional formulaic films, and he complained that I in particular didn't use that formula. So you would be restating the most obvious while also missing to address the (falsehood of) his criticism.

Um, okay... I just read through the first 3rd or so, and I've no idea what your genuine thesis behind the sarcasm is supposed to be a lot of the time.
Maybe don't do that

Hey, y'all can hire and not hire and unhire whoever you want - I'm just replying to your comment, and expressing my doubts that you could make a valid rebuttal.

But maybe you could

 

Oooh... This is definitely click-bait at its finest... They just needed to place the poster of TPM as the cover of the video to attract as many viewings as possible while in reality, TPM is in the bottom of the top 10 list of all movies...

That reminds me of how a youtuber, Jogwheel , started his own channel 10 years ago while doing his movie reviews. For the title and the cover of his videos, he just placed some porn title and pictures of women nude, while in reality, when you click on those videos, it's in reality a movie review... But certainly, it helped him attract a lot of attention on his channel: the fastest way to become popular on the internet...

 

As I have said in a PM, I feel as if it should be made also into a well planned and constructed breakdowns(like Nerdling said) but also, split it up into different segments, to make it much more organized.

Like talking about different subjects of the movies(Design, Sound, Art, Music, Visuals, Characters, Narrative, Story) and every 2 segments, will have different people in conversation. That way, things will have a bit of mix up of different perspectives.

Of course, It wouldn't be all in one video.

EDIT: I will also add that segments shouldn't be mutually exclusive to gender. I know that sounds really damn weird coming from me, but I've been in similar projects where we split up genders to different segments.

 

A quick glance through an average Star Wars-related youtube comments section has reminded me yet again of the terribleness there. Our videos will have to be good. We are going into the lion's den with this one.

 

I'm personally not too big on watching YouTubers discuss the movies (I'd much rather talk on the JCF myself) but it is cool that this person is doing an actively-pro prequel analysis. Keep it up!

 

That is why I still think Youtube might not be the best place, even if it's still the most popular place today, to post a video...

 

I think Youtube would be possibly an alright place to put it, but my personal recommendation would be to -- in tandem -- publish it on Vimeo. They have a strong film community there.

 

I really like Vimeo. The content on this webpage seems more serious, and people who post videos and comments are more respectful than in Youtube.

 

"It's also part of this werid "symbiosis theme" that's hovering above TPM and TPM only, but you don't get what the point of it is or how it relates to anything at all."

WHAT THE ...? The symbiosis theme is ALL AROUND in ALL SIX FILMS.

What is the Separatists' stated motivation, as known by all the officials and protagonists?

SEVERAL THOUSANDS SOLAR SYSTEM HAVE DECLARED THEIR INTENTION TO LEAVE THE REPUBLIC - from the opening crawl!

"The republic is not what it once was."
"There is no interest in the common good"

should I continue?

 

I would add Possessive Love/Compassionate Love to the dualities as a running theme.

 

Don't forget the main core....

Obsessive Love...

The POC

Possessive Love
Obsessive Love
Compassionate Love

All 3 ean it's course through the PT.

 

Any update on the status of these would be videos?

 

coming soon

http://prequelsstrikeback.com/

 

I think we should get on this and make it happen.

 

Well, we have a good base transcript/ talking points now.

 

Oh, do we? I should add that I would be more than willing to take part in this.