Proof of Palpatine orchestrating Shmi's kidnapping?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Lord Mauly Mall, Jun 24, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Icebreaker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 4
    Its not as simple as "No...I am your father" I mean the average movie-goer will be like...WTF? Didn't the Tusken's kill his mom? Yet if Palpy gives a speech about how he had the Tuskens do it us Fans will be like...WTF? How did he get the TUSKENs to do it?

    It is kinda a no win situation...and why would he TELL Anakin he killed his Mother? Wouldn't Anakin want to kill HIM instead of JOIN him...? I mean we see that with Luke in ROTJ

    ~ICeBReaKeR
    His abilities have made him...arrogant
  2. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    Good point Mauly. Youre exactly, right...One line is all it would take. But even if it took 5 minutes of screen time that would not be unreasonable. Anakin turning is a major part of the film I'm guessing, so it would be fine to give that much time to an explanation. IceBreaker, When Palaptine told him in RotJ it was to get gim to unleash his anger...he hadn't given up on Luke at that point, but he needed him to release his anger to turn to the darkside. Am I wrong about that?
  3. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    I don't suppose the Emperor's theme playing while Padme is listening to Anakin's confession about the Tuskin Raider slaughter is proof that Palpatine had Shmi killed. I thought the purpose of Shmi being taken from Anakin was to show his dark side tendencies once he would give in to his anger. She simply went too far off from the Lars's homestead and they kidnapped her.

    Also, in ANH when Luke is searching for Artoo with his mircobincoulars, he tells Threepio that it would be too dangerous to search for Artoo with all the Sand People around.

    For John Williams's music to play when Anakin is telling Padme about what he did to the Tusken village is just placing the dark side where it was at the moment. The dark side was with him at that point.
  4. Lord Mauly Mall TFN/JC Banner Artist Team

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 7
    Thanks L-G. Ice, well again I have to point out the bizarre situation with Dooku and Sidious. Surely Dooku knows that Maul was Sidious' apprentice who killed Qui-Gon. And just as Palpatine tells Luke in ROTJ to strike him down to complete his journey to the dark side, Anakin most likely does attempt to strike Palpatine down if there is this big revelation of Palpatine orchestrating Shmi's abduction. But perhaps something happens as Anakin attempts to kill Palpatine, either Dooku intervenes or..?

    Basically, besides Anakin's fight with Obi-Wan, I really think that something big needs to happen between Palpatine and Anakin to cement their relationship as master and apprentice. And the issue of Shmi's abduction could just be the catalyst for it.
  5. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    There could be a scene that plays just like the end of RotJ, only with Dooku(Vaders role), Palpatine (Same), and Anakin (Lukes role), like you said Mauly. That would be funny too if Anakin killed Dooku, as it was Dooku who cut off his hand (Arm). Just as Luke almost killed Vader, and Vader had cut off his hand. That sounds like cool Parallel, tie in.
  6. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    Wait a minute. If Palpatine were to tell Anakin that HE arranged for the death of his mother, Palpatine would be dead very quickily. If not, Anakin would never join him. We haven't seen someone fall to the dark side yet, so we don't really know what it would look like. Now, Anakin's love for his mother has been set up since Ep1. We know they have some sort of bond. If anything, Anakin might release his anger on Dooku because of the fact that Palpatine is a Sith. But like Dooku, the point Palpatine has to make is 'Hey, I'm your friend. Have I ever left you astray? The Jedi have, and you don't agree with them. With me you can be as powerful as you want'

    "I must obey my master" Would Vader really obey someone who killed his mother? No way.
  7. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    Emperor_Dan, I would agree with you if I hadn't seen RotJ, but in RotJ, Palpatine is evil and he knows Luke knows it, yet Palpatine thinks he can still turn him. Luke knows that Palpatine has set up the ambush for the rebellion, and Palpatine still thinks he can turn him...how does that work then?
  8. Icebreaker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 4
    I would go for Palpy possibly trying to pin the death of Anakin's mother on say...Obi-Wan or Dooku to upset him but I couldn't see him saying:

    "Hey...I killed your mom, but lets get over that and work together..."

    The idea that Palpy would use Anakin's mothers death to turn him is a really good plot point and COULD work well, I just dont like the idea of him having something to do with it. Sometimes even Sith Lords have to get "lucky" and I think Palpy got lucky with the Annie's mom biting the dust, because now he can use that to turn Anakin. But once again...I do NOT see him having an ivolvment in her death and I do NOT see how the music in that particular scenes represents (in some way) that Palpy was involved

    ~ICeBReaKeR
    His abilities have made him...arrogant
  9. Lord-Gretzky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 3
    IceBreaker, that's completely understandable, and I won't be suprised if you're right about Palpatine not being involved in Shmi's death. I personally think he is involved, but I'm not saying it's for sure. I just feel that all the movies have enforced the idea that the Emperor has been involved in the major happenings of his rise to power and that nothing has just randomly happened. That's all.
  10. Icebreaker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 4
    Well if there is one good thing about this thread it would have to be that everyone agrees Palpatine is Sidious...So0o that makes everything ok..(HeHe)
    :D

    ~ICeBReaKeR
    His abilities have made him...arrogant
  11. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    LG: It's a good question. We haven't seen anyone be turned yet, but we can look at when Jedi have dabbled in the dark arts.

    Obi-Wan: After Maul kills Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan probably uses some of the dark side before calming himself down. Obi-Wan wants revenge.

    Anakin: Never was able to let go of his mother. When Tusken Raiders are responsible for her death, Anakin is just mad. Anakin takes his uncontrollable anger out on the Sandpeople. I think this scene just shows how out of control Anakin can get, and the fact that he can't let go of things.

    Luke: Ok, Luke gets really mad at Vader because he threatened to turn Leia. Luke starts kicking Vader's butt, and defeats him.

    This is such a complex scene. What was Vader trying to accomplish? We know both he and Palpatine were trying to turn Luke while killing the other Sith. We also know that Vader had mixed loyalties. Palpatine's his master, but Luke's his son.

    What would happen in a similar scene with Dooku replacing Vader, and Anakin replacing Luke? Would Dooku try to turn Anakin for himself? Yes, Dooku was trying to get Obi-Wan on his side, and we know that Palpatine is pretty much done with Dooku. The difference I think is that Anakin is already a friend of Palpatine. Luke KNOWS that Palpatine is evil, hence the taunting and goading. Palpatine ALREADY has a command over Anakin, from before AOTC. He's simply using the fact that Anakin is by nature reckless, emotionally attached to things (Shmi, Padme) and upset at the Jedi order. Palpatine does not initiate these problems, he just takes advantage of them. Just like he took advantage of the problems of the Republic. Does this mean that he took advantage of the fact that Anakin is attached to his mother, and decides to have her be killed? It's not his best bet. He wants the clones to be found, and Obi-Wan is probably his best candidate. He's counting on him to follow Jango to Geonosis. Also, he wants Anakin to go off on his own mission alone, and he needs Padme to be off planet. Perfect!

    I don't know how the scene in EpIII will play out, but I don't think it will be that similar to ROTJ. Anakin already trusts Palpatine, while Luke does not. It is likely that the Jedi will be responsible for Padme's death, and Anakin will turn his back on them.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Except for Gonk, but that's another story.

    I don't think he did it. No one has answered why the Tuskens didn't kill Luke right away? Instead they drag him around. We've seen Tuskens four times now. And of those four times, we have not seen them kill or kidnap someone. Take it this way, Palpatine knows that Padme is part of the link to turning him. He would also know that the boy has nightmeres about his mother. If he foresaw something bad happening, he could make sure that the boy was alone with the two things that could turn him, without having to rely on Tuskens making a barter.

    We hear Yoda's theme when Luke goes to face Vader. And again when Leia, Lando, Chewie and the droids are running around Cloud City. The Force theme was originally Obi-wan's theme, but it grew to become the theme of all Jedi using the Force or talking about it. Luke's theme was used twice in TPM and he wasn't in the film. And Imperial March was used, when Yoda talks about him to Obi-wan. The old style was used to talk about Vader in ANH. Williams has used it to foreshadow the character traits of the moment. DOTF was was used to show that Anakin was heading towards his destiny, while trying to prevent it.
  13. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    "Sometimes even Sith Lords have to get "lucky" and I think Palpy got lucky with the Annie's mom biting the dust, because now he can use that to turn Anakin."

    Palpatine is the master political manipulator, no doubts there. But I don't think he has control over such minute details. I'm not even sure if he purposely had Jango fire the Kamino Saber Dart so that Obi Wan would find the clone army. I think Palpatine is extremely adaptable and goes with the flow most of the time. Always in motion the future is, as Yoda noted and Palpatine also knows this so he uses every twist and turn to his advantage... he may "cause" some of those plot twists to happen but I don't think that he is really a micro-management sort of guy. Palpatine is looking at the big picture and the little things that happen along the way he uses to his advantage, like Obi Wan discovering the clones. That is why Palpy is such a dangerous individual for he possesses adaptability and foresight.
  14. Darth Jamus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2000
    star 4
    "If Shmi dies, it would be the will of the force either way wouldn't it? Wether Palapatine was behind it or not, right?"

    I completely agree with you on this point, LORD_GRETZKY, fate (or the Will of the Force) has decreed that Ani's mother will die. Nothing is a coincidence, as Qui-Gon points out, but I still don't like Palpatine having something to do with this particular point. In all fairness, I asked my friend who just saw AOTC if he liked the thought of Palpatine being behind Schmi's death. I gave no hints as to what my opinion was. He agreed that Palps was behind it! I then told him about this thread and my vigorous argument against Palps involvement. I thought all of you may find some humor in that!

    "Palpatine is looking at the big picture and the little things that happen along the way he uses to his advantage, like Obi Wan discovering the clones"

    Precisely LUKE_CLONE, this is the same thing that happened in TPM. Sidious wanted Amidala to sign the Trade Federation treaty so that it could be radified in the Senate. He had a completely different plan laid out for his ascension to Supreme Chancellor. He simply adapted to Queen Amidala evading capture and arriving safely on Coruscant. This change of plan actually got him in the leadership position much quicker than his original plan would have. As I said earlier, Palpatine is simply going with the flow of things.

    And since I haven't commented on this for a while, the music is in no way proof of Palps involvement in Schmi's abduction and death. I think many others have pointed out very good occurances of the reuse of character themes for different parts of the movies. As I said earlier (again) with this line of thinking, Dooku will be Emperor instead of Palpatine due to the Emperor's theme being played while he arrives on Coruscant, only to change to new music with Sidious.
  15. JaZzYjaZZ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 4
    Sorry for interrupting your conversation..

    I feel that it is possible that Palpatine planned the whole thing. After all, he did plan to take over the Republic since day one :D.

    However it could just be the way things are, ie, the force plays a hand in deciding how things happen, just like how Qui Gon found Anakin on Tattoine. So, possibly, it is just destiny which is taking place :)
  16. FOTR-AOTC-TTT_2002 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 3
    I think that we don't know what Palpatine and Vader try to accomplish in ROTJ.

    It looks like Palpatine tries to turn Luke to the darkside, but maybe that is not his main goal.

    I'm not convinced Palpatine ever had a chance to turn Luke. Luke simply has *no* reason to join Palpatine. Being angry and agressive is not enough to call sidious "master".

    My opinion is that Sidious' main goal is to get rid of Vader. If Vader, the chosen one dies, the Emperor wins.
    Palpatine cannot kill vader and survive. But he realizes that Luke could defeat Vader (Lucas confirmed that only the son of vader can defeat vader). Why ? Because Vader just can't kill his own son.

    -Palpatine obviously knows that Luke wants to turn Vader back to the good side ("by now you must know your father can never be turned from the darkside !").

    -If so, he also knows that Luke doesn't want to fight Vader.

    ---> So Palpatine tries to get Luke to fight and kill Vader. Once father and son fight, Palpatine knows that Vader will not kill his son, and that it will be easy to push Luke to kill Vader.

    The point is to show Luke that his friends suffer and will ultimately be destroyed by the Empire. By his own father's troops that is !


    In the prequels, things are not the same :

    -Palpatine and Anakin are seemingly on the same side : palpatine is supreme chancellor, Anakin is a jedi, they both serve the republic.

    -Many people are frustrated with what the jedi order has become. Anakin is frustrated with his master, and he is ambitious. He knows he is the chosen one, and he doesn't want to take orders from the jedi council.
    Anakin blames *OB1* for holding him back and not allowing him to rescue his mother in time.

    -Palpatine and Anakin have had a relationship for years. Palpatine is a good man from Anakin's point of view.

    -Anakin thinks that someone wise should rule the Galaxy with an iron hand. Anakin wants power, he wants to become all-powerful.



    ----> My conclusion is that if Palpatine had a hand in killing shmi, he won't reveal it to Anakin. He won't try to make Anakin mad at him like he does with Luke in ROTJ.
    He has set up things for the jedi to look bad. He will use it to turn Ani.

    Anakin wants power ? Palpatine will give him power : Vader will command the imperial forces, give orders, kill anyone who fails him, torture people to get answers, and so on.

    Anakin wants power and admires Palpatine. Luke hated Palpatine, the Empire and didn't want power really.

    Palpatine will give Anakin all that the jedi refuse to give him.

    The way Palpatine manipulates things and people in the PT is much more subtle than in the OT.

  17. grand_admiral_ewok Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2001
    star 4
    Good thinking there, FOTR.

    Your ideas are very good there.
  18. Kenneth-Morgan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2000
    star 3
    My take on this is that Palpatine didn't arrange for Shmi's death...but he was planning to.
    Through the Force and through his conversations with Anakin, Palpatine must've known how attached Ani was to his mom, and how much of an influence she had on him. If she'd stayed alive, she might've been a factor preventing him from turning to the Dark Side. So, I figure he was planning to have her killed at some future time and use it to his advantage.
    But, fortunately for Palpatine, he may have seen her abduction in the future and decided to just let it happen. It would achieve his goal without any chance of it being traced back to him. In addition, the fact that this advantageous event was just happening, without any "assistance", might just make Palpatine believe that it's the "Will of the Force" that he take absolute control.

    On a side issue, I think this points to the idea that Palpatine will eventually try to kill Padme. Remember, earlier attempts were done at the behest of the Trade Federation, and were intended to prevent her voting. When it didn't work (and Palpatine may have known it wouldn't), he switched to Plan B.
    I don't doubt that Palpatine knew about Ani's love for her, and that he made sure Ani, through Kenobi, would guard her. This would cause their attachment to grow until it interfered with Ani's commitment to the Jedi. This would result in his being pushed into Palpatine's camp and, if Padme were killed, Ani would go to him for help in avenging her.

    Palpatine doesn't control everything; he just makes it look like he does.

  19. DarthIvanNemesis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 1
    It's ridiculous to say that Palpatine had control over the Tusken Raiders. NO ONE has control over the Tusken Raiders. I am sure, however, that Palpatine could sense Anakin's volatile temper and knew that somehow it would explode. However his gambit was a bit more interesting - he put Anakin together with Padme ("an old friend..."). A stroke of genius: teenage hormones in conflict with the rules of the Jedi Order, serving as a giant irritant to Anakin's temper. We have not seen the fallout to Anakin getting married yet, that should be interesting.

    Palpatine has no need to turn Anakin against Dooku - I tend to think Dooku, being the leader of the Separatists will be killed in the triumph of the Republic / Empire. Palpatine however now has some powerful levers to turn Anakin against the Jedi:

    1. They won't approve of his marriage.
    2. They didn't rescue his mother from slavery.
    3. They didn't allow him to rescue his mother from slavery.
    4. They didn't even keep an eye on her.

    Game, set, match, Lord Sidious.

    Regards,

    Darth Nemesis, Sith bloke, grinning at what is to come in Episode III
  20. Master Chbel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2000
    star 4
    There are 3 people who link Anakin to the light: Shmi, Padme, and Obi-Wan. Is it mere coincidence that Shmi is dead? Coincidence is dull storytelling. We're going to see his links to Padme and Obi-Wan deliberately destroyed in 3.

    And why does one need control over the Sandpeople to get them to do something that's already part of their nature. Shmi needs to be killed, having a bounty hunter do the deed is too obvious, too many leads, and too many questions. But Sandpeople? No one would think to look for any reason than they are *Sandpeople.* Did I just negate the arguement that Palpatine is behind this? Possibly, but I do believe he arranged (not personally) that the Sandpeople take Shmi--and that the longer they kept her alive, the higher the payment (weapons most likely). And since the village is destroyed, no payment is ever made.

    He (or whoever arranged it for him) just used how the Sandpeople's treat their prisoners...Nothing *out of the ordinary* to raise suspicions that this event was anything but coincidence.

    And Palpatine won't confess to Anakin...Maybe Padme.

    Luke's capture was ordinary.
  21. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Why do people keep saying that they don't want Palpatine to be behind everything when he hasn't done anything to turn Anakin or Dooku to the dark side, with the possible exception of advising Anakin a little and stroking his ego.

    He does suggest Obi Wan and Anakin for the mission right? In a roundabout way he gets them separated. He knows that they'd flee to Naboo and that Naboo is close to Tatooine. It all makes sense. I mean it's a little far fetched and requires a great deal of timing but no more than any other plan in SW.

    As for dealing with the Tuskins, maybe a bounty hunter kidnaps Shmi and delivers her to the Tuskins and lets them have at her.
  22. FOTR-AOTC-TTT_2002 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 3
    One thing is sure Padme Bra,

    Palpatine plans for Padme to leave Coruscant and hide on another planet.

    He *wants her not to be on coruscant during the following weeks* :

    He has set up things to start a war. He wants the clones to be found *by the jedi* (this is a very important plotpoint), and he wants the senate to vote him emergency powers.
    This cannot work if Padme is around.

    So Palpatine knows that Padme will have to leave the planet and that she will be escorted by her jedi protector.
    He probably forsees that the jedi council will ask OB1 to investigate since he is more experienced, and assign Anakin to protect Padme, since he is very powerful, and more than qualified for the job.

    As Dooku's master, he knows pretty well when the assassination attempts are gonna take place. And he knows an investigation will be needed since Dooku uses a bounty hunter who uses a bounty hunter : if the Jedi catch the murderer, they will have to investigate to find out who gave the order.

    If you think about it, it is believable that Palpatine controls everything. He is in a position where he sees all. There's no such thing as luck in his game. He is the one who give the orders and he can play both sides. He commands the separatists, he controls the commerce guilds (indirectly) and the jedi serve him. He's got the whole galaxy in his hands ...

    At the end of TPM, Sidious had already won ...

  23. Twink_Kee Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2001
    star 5
    I don't think Palpatine was responsible for this. At all. (Save for the influence he had in agitating Anakin's arrogancy)

    While Palpatine assigned Obi-Wan and Anakin to protect Padme, he had no idea that the two would wind up being split up. That was the Jedi Council's decision. There is no hint, whatosever, in either the film or even the novel that Palpatine initialized the the idea of Anakin going off on his own. He only finds out about it after Anakin approaches him.

    Now, for the sake of argument, let's say that you ignore the novel (in which the Tusken kidnapping happens well before any of this, meaning that Palpatine couldn't have hired the Tuskens after he knew Anakin was leaving). Do you really expect a Sith Lord to contract Tuskens, or even have somebody contract Tuskens, to kidnap a human woman? No. Not gonna happen. There is nothing to suggest in the films that the Tuskens would make such an arrangement, or would even be capable of having such an arrangement made with them.

    Of course, if you follow the events as they happen in order in the novel, you would know that the Tuskens kidnap Shmi before any of this goes down. The Tuskens attack outposts and give the farmers hell. It's just what they do. It's explained more in the novel, but unfortunately there wasn't enough time in the film to give an exposition of their activity.

    As far as the music goes, it's called forshadowing. Not "backshadowing". Eventually, Palpatine will play off this same anger that Anakin exhibits in this scene, and use it to his advantage.

    In fact, I don't think you will hear a peep about the kidnapping of Shmi or the Tusken slaughter in Episode III, at least not as it would relate to Palpatine. Maybe Anakin blaming the death of his mom on the Jedi, but nothing more than that I think.

    *sigh*

    If you pay close attention, Lucas always leave clues to his "plot twists" in the dialogue. Not the music. Vader being Luke's father, Leia being Luke's sister, Lando being a traitor...

    There is no such dialogue in TPM or AOTC that suggests Palpatine would've arranged this situation.
  24. Master Chbel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2000
    star 4
    After reading all the posts, and contributing a couple of my own, I've decided I don't want this explained. The arguements are good either way.

    The mystery is perfect.

    Either way Palpatine comes across as a brilliant strategist and opportunist.
  25. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    i have believed palpy had a hand in this since the beginning.

    reading the arguments here only leads me further down a path to this conclusion!

    the arguments against it are simple -- too simple.
    they come across as denial or lack of imagination.
    speculation is the key to these forums - and this speculation is well-documented and logical.

    the arguments against it are simply stated - ignorance of presented facts.

    i don't mean to sound like i am flaming! i just want to point out the need for stronger arguments from the nay-sayers.

    aurra sing could play a key role in this - in many aspects - if she reappears in epIII.

    palpy doesn't exactly need to "contact" the tuskens, - and who says a bounty hunter doesn't grab shmi and set her up for a tusken slaughter?
    we don't know the motives of the tuskens - so we cannot speculate further about why they would or would not keep shmi alive.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.