PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jedi-Wanna-be, May 12, 2002.

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  1. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    OK, the idea he would lie to the Viceroy is marginally plausible. But lie to DArth Maul too? What is the point?

    Your theory requires that everything he said in the film was a lie - to the characters, and the audience. That is bad film-making. It violates a basic trust between story writer and audience that is essential in order for them to suspend their disbelief while watching the film.

    In order to be lying to Nute about wanting the Queen to sign the treaty; he must also lie to Maul in telling him to get her to sign the treaty.

    In effect, you must make Sidious lie through the entire film to make your theory true. And Palpatine, too, for that matter. It makes both characters unbelievable.

    My theory, on the other hand, takes both characters at face value. My theory does not require some twisted interpretation of events / scenes / dialogue to be plausible.

    My theory is consistent with the events in the film as perceived without PRECONCEIVED IDEAS! Try viewing TPM without knowing they are the same person.

    Only a person who is already convinced Palpatine is Sidious can dismiss the consequent inconsistencies.
  2. tooltre Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2000
    star 3
    well I'll say this...you make good points but regardless of your evidence the point is just bad filmaking on lucas' part. As being a clone it is possible albeit unlikely...however in lucas saying sidious=palpatine means little...because technically a clone of a person is the person himself (in the sw universe)...
  3. Darth Zykalus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    LONG ANSWER :
    Well, once Amidala returns to Naboo, even if Palpatine was not nominated, Sidious(or Palpatine since I believe Sid = Palp) does not need the treaty anymore. Why ? The vote against Valorum is there, he was nominated, now the situation on Naboo will created a sympathy for him, he could not care less. And he the Queen is dead, the sympathy could not be stronger, so he send Maul to dispatch the jedi and probably take care of the queen. And why is he surprised(this his an unexpected move from her..), well, he didn`t expected the queen to go to the gungans for help...

    The scene in the trailer with Anakin and Palpatine(You don`t need guidance anakin, I see you are becoming the greatest of all...) shows that Palps has taken an interest in the chosen one and he is feeding on the fear and anger of Anakin to make him one of his. Why would the clone do that ?

    Luke could feel the dark side on Dagobah. True, but it is not like the tree was hiding and clouding itself. Palps needs to cloud the jedi, using the dark side. Even at the end of AOTC(read the novel or the comic or wait for the movie) Mace and Yoda are Jedi, proud Jedi and cannot believe that what Dooku said to ObiWan was True(about the republic being under the control of the Sith). Even in TPM Mace sais " I don't beleive the Sith could have return without us knowing ". This shows how arrogant the jedi have become(which is part of thier downfall)

    IMHO, if Palps turns out to be a clone of Sid(or twin or wahtever type of duplicate), it weakens the genius Palps mangage to fool and the Jedi and the general population, the senate and everybody. The political manipulation is interesting and the character is much more interesting. Besides, the jedi knows the sith is there and is looking at the wrong place. Palps hides in plain sight, that is genius. Having him hiding somewhere on Coruscant is weak, because the jedi are probably looking near because they know the Sith must not be far, they were just to proud of tehmselves to believe he would be right under their nose...

    SHORT ANSWER :
    They are the same, otherwise...bad storytelling...And I don't buy that McCallum and Lucas would be pulling an ObiWan...besides, only the fans got it, my cousin did not suspect at all they are the same, I told him and I had to explain him the reason before he saw it, and my cousin would part of "the general public"....

  4. lil_windu Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 1

    Maybe they're not and maybe they are... anyways I can't believe that AOTC has no clues to explain this! For the folks who saw the movie, what are they!?

    Also keep in mind that GL has no problem having his characters lie in the trilogies... I'm sure there are more than a few lies in TPM! And btw, that record saying Palpatine becomes Emperor... history can lie too!
  5. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 4
    The proof used in prior movies that were mentioned. OK, here is one from ROTJ
    (this is relating to the fact that he Jedi-wannabe said sidious did not want her alive but palpatine did or whatever)

    The bothan spies died to bring us the information, the location of the shield generator. We know that the weapons on this battle station are not yet operational....

    later.

    Emperor "It was I who allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator, I assure you it is quite safe from your pitiful band, an enteire legion of my best troops awaits them"

    also "Now witness the full firepower of this fully armed and operational battlestation, commander fire at will"

    One would ask why he would allow spies to know the weaknesses, how to expose them, but he had a plan, every ship in the galaxy was wating for them.

    and here is a paralell to TPM that was in ROTJ. I am sure he knew the ewoks were there, in fact they were more primative then the gungans by far. He never would have expected them to join in battle and actually defeat the empire.

    Now as far as some evidince pointing to they being the same person-

    Palpatine is a leading senator : Sidious "I will make it legal"

    You see Palpatine talking with padme and others and see a balcony with a window, later you see darth maul and sidious at night walking on a balcony which looks exacltly the same, but here is what is more compelling then that. I looked at this many times, and i had to factor in that one was in daylight one was at night and shot at a slightly diffrnt angle, but the buildings you see from the 2 balconites are the same balconies with respect to each other.

    Also, I am a musician, and the person who pointed out about the emporer theme plaing at the end as the celebration, it is true, it was sped up and played in major instead of minor, plus the fact that the foreshadowing of Palpatine at the funeral

    "alway 2 there are a master and an apprentice , no more no less" But which was destroyed, the master or the apprentice" and then they immidiately focus in on palpatine.

    However, despite the fact that the proofs here would show they are the same, I will not completely 100% rule out that it could be used as a shock factor, afterall, George Lucas likes to mess with peoples heads so they never know what is going to happen.
    BUT, until proven wrong, I stand by my my proof

  6. JediScott Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    First off, everyone keeps referring to Obi-Wan's lie in ANH in comparison to this issue. The only problem is, Lucas has stated OUTSIDE the films that Palpatine=Sidious. To me, that is irrefutable evidence. It is one thing to have a character tell a lie to help the film along, it is another for Lucas to lie in an interview. He never said Vader killed Anakin outside of the movies. Secondly, I recall having an action figure from ROTJ that had a sticker on it that said Emporer PALPATINE. Seems quite plain to me.
  7. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    Thanks for giving a piece of concrete evidence. Lucas' direct statement and the Action Figure. I also remember owning an Emperor Palpatine Doll. At the time, I never understood the Palpatine part of the name.

    Well, you've given me something to think about.

    Still, I say its 50/50. it really boils down to whether Lucas is willing to accept the backlash for pulling a fast one on the 'fans'.

    If Palpatine is Sidious, he has some serious explaining to do in Ep.III to get rid of these nagging inconsistencies.

    If they're not the same, he has to back-pedal from previous statements. And those Emperor Palpatine Dolls will be solid gold, I bet. Sigh... wish I still had mine.

    (I lost my entire SW memorabilia & comic & Hockey card collection in 1984... house fire.... 8 Gretzky rookie cards, every single SW action figure, some in many multiples... sigh.)
  8. Darth Fierce Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    Apologies for not reading this whole thread. If the following is redundant, feel free to ignore.

    Let's say it's true, and Episode III gives us this huge shocking moment where we see Palpatine and Sidious are clones. :eek:

    Tell me, how does this impact the plot in any constructive way?
  9. JediScott Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    You said you wanted proof, here is the best proof I can find. This is from the back of the file card for the Emperor's ROTJ action figure:

    In his early days as a senator of the Galactic Republic, Palpatine seemed like an Tordinary politician. However, as the republic feel apart, the senator's hidden thirst for power grew and his true evil spirit became apparent. He declared himself Emperor of the galaxy and used the dark side of the force as a means to enforce his tyranny. He nearly succeeded in wiping out the Jedi Knights, who stood as the most potent threat to his reign of terror. As destiny would have it, Luke Skywalker, the son of Palpatine's loyal apprentice Darth Vader, would ultimately bring about the evil Emperor's downfall.

    Now, the important parts of that are these:

    - The fact that he was a senator and declared himself emperor

    - He used the dark side of the force

    - Darth Vader was his apprentice

    Now, your theory would have us believe that Palpatine handled the senate and Sidious was the sith who made Anakin Darth Vader. This proves that Anakin was in fact Palpatine's apprentice. Therefore, Palpatine is a sith AND was a senator AND became emperor. Seems cut and dry to me. Now I know action figures are not necessarily canon, but I can't imagine Lucas is going to suddenly have millions of action figures have THAT MUCH incorrect information on them. This wouldn't be a little lie, everything on the card would be wrong.

    edit: the back also shows a picture of palps from ROTJ and from TPM.

    Here's the address to the card:

    [link=http://systems.figures.com/database/index.html?page=pic&sdomid=5&spicid=1573&pic_width=747&pic_height=477]
    picture[/link]
  10. Darth_Joe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 2
    Maybe we're looking at this all wrong. Still sticking with the theory that they are not the same person, what if it is Sidious who dies? What if Palpatine is his apprentice or something along those lines? Don't give me "It breaks the rule of two" crap. GL created it, he can break his own rules. And whoever said that there can only be two Sith lords at one time. All that is said in the movie is "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice." Yoda doesn't say "Only two there can be." Maybe they are twins or clones and they are both strong in the force.

    If Palpatine is a clone, and if GL keeps the rule of two thing...would it really be breaking it since they are actually one and the same? What if Sidious created Palpatine to further his own ends, and plans on destroying him when he no longer needs him, only to have it backfire on him and be destroyed by the clone he created? What if Sidious doesn't think that Palpatine knows how to use the force and Palpatine has been honing his force abilities without Sidious' knowledge to destroy him, so that he alone can rule?

    I know I'm really going out on a limb here, but these are just some ideas as to how to explain that they aren't the same person.
  11. sidiousmd Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2002
    star 2
    The whole idea of clones is just so stupid, i hate all this mental masturbations, the easiest explanation is the accurate one. Sidious is Palpatine it is as simple as that.

    Boy, i guess those who think otherwise are the "conspiracy theory" kind of guys, i guess you love X files don't you?


    Nevertheless, saying that clones ARE the same person is just plain idiocy. It is like saying that identical twins are in reality the same person.
  12. ECM_Boba_Fett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 3
    Before you post get your facts straight Yoda does say there can only be two siths at a time in TPM

    Mace " no doubt the mysteriuos warrior was a sith"

    Yoda says " ah Only two there can be no more no less"

    then mace says "which one was destroyed"
  13. Darth_Joe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 2
    Well, excuse the **** out of me. I forgot that line. Sorry I don't have the whole movie memorized. Still, like I said, GL made the rule...he can break it.

    Like I've said before, the reason I don't think they are the same person is because it's just TOO obvious. It doesn't make sense that he hasn't revealed them to be one and the same. He has to have something in mind when it comes to revealing who Sidious is. Something to shock the audience, including all the fanboys out there that think they are so smart and have something on the average viewer.

    Excuse me while I rant for a moment:

    I have been on these boards for maybe a week or so, and have noticed that there is not a whole lot of constructive thinking going on here. Any time someone posts something, if there is one flaw in it or one misplaced word, half the people here jump on them like rabid wolves. For Christ's sake people...open your minds and don't be so f***in picky and rude.

    **feels better now**
  14. ECM_Boba_Fett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 3
    Sorry for sounding rude but my point was just why post when you should get it straight you didnt ask a question you stated that yoda didnt say it as fact.

    All i am saying is before you offer a fact make sure you are right. Nothing is wrong with your theory as its yous I dont believe it but its your opinion.

    My whole point is when you state something as fact from a movie get it right and then it will add to your theory.

    Like i said i am not coming down on your theory just the misfacts you used

    sorry
  15. Jaden Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 2
    My question would simply be what was Sidious' point in getting the Queen to sign a treaty to legalize the Trade Federation's occupation? What political gain would it really serve for him as Palpatine?

    After the queen escapes, he turns things to his advantage and uses her as bait to put a vote of no confidence against Valorum.

    So I go back to my initial question - why get the treaty signed in the first place?
  16. ECM_Boba_Fett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 3
    He knew she would never signed it. He wasonly telling that to Nute to get him to go along with his plan. Nute didnt want to fight. Palps knew she was going to fight but nute didnt and palps/sid played it like it was nutes idea to attack.


    anyways watch Aotc and you will see they are the same

    There is couple lines that were said by mace and yoda that proves thr darkside is blocking the jedi

    Yoda " Blind we are if creation of this clone army we didnt see the "
    mace" maybe we should inform the senate that our abilty to use the force is dimished"

    yoda" Only the sith lord knows of our weakness if senate inform multiply our enemys will"


    What all that says is the darkside is covering everything and that palps can hide the darkside from the jedi as the darkside of the force is now stronger that the light side
  17. VaderSkywalker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2002
    star 1
    I was about to refute your opinion BUT it is rather interesting when you point out that Sidious is the "evil twin" clone (or vise versa) of Palpatine.

    Anyone recalls that Sidious is the father of Vader? Or is it Palpatine the father of Anakin?

    Oh I get it, the real Anakin will be killed in Episode 3 and being replaced by his "evil twin" clone - Vader. HAHAHA!!!

    Pretty presumptuous. A great disturbance in the force... I must meditate... meditate... meditate...
  18. ECM_Boba_Fett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 3
  19. Yoda_Not_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 1
    It would be an interesting plot twist, but not a real shocker to any SW fan, since we've debated it endlessly.

    Maybe Palpatine is a droid instead. Or he started as a man, but is now all but machine, thus he's hard to detect by the Jedi.

    Discuss
  20. DINVADER Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2000
    star 4
    TPM DVD commentary: Lucas: Darth Sidious is introduced as a hologram in this movie, the same way he is introduced in ESB.
  21. miep Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Palpatine is Sidious. I firmly believe that.

    The Emporer's theme is used for Sidious. Big hint there. Also, if Palpatine isn't Sidious, it's going to be so confusing. Sure, it'll shock us. But I wasn't aware that Lucas wanted to create a huge twist in his prequels. I thought the purpose of the PT was to answer questions and fill out what we know from the OT, not to create more questions!

    Sidious=Palpatine. Thank goodness. It makes the saga more interesting and makes the bad guy, Palpatine, really evil.
  22. MrBNtrl Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    Watch AOTC, watch how he walks when he is with Anakin...look at his hands. Now watch ROTJ....enjoy. It's the same walk, his hands are in the (for lack of a better visual) praying mantis position. Also note the Red Guards and the bald person in blue near him. Very similar to ROTJ. His chair is even the same!

    Palpatine is my favorite character, he has forseen so much and planned so far in advance. The only reason he failed was he didn't count on that bit of Anakin left over in Vader.
  23. sidiousmd Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2002
    star 2
    In TPM when Sidious talks with Maul (in Palpy´s apartment by the way) he also walks with his hands in the "praying mantis position".

    They are even played by the same actor for christ´s sake!!!!
  24. Red Sabre Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 1998
    star 2
    There will be a HUGE surprise in Episode III, but it won't be that Palpatine is not Sidious...

    It will be that R2-D2 isn't really a droid. R2-D2 is really Yoda's twin hiding in a tin can! Don't believe me? Watch how they interact in ESB. Look at the tug of war over the lamp. The look R2 gives Yoda after he let's Luke drop him. The way heglares at Yoda when he leaves him out in the rain...

    And it makes complete sense, If one Yoda isn't enough to keep the Skywalkers on the straight and narrow, then two are needed. One to guide Anakin (Yoda who fails) and one to guide Luke. (R2)

    I believe THIS is what we will see revealed in Episode III. Heck, it makes a lot more sense than Two identical looking, sounding, acting, people who happen to be in the same place all of the time being different people.

    Then again, I guess some people actually thought SuperMan and Clark Kent were different people... but Palpatine doesn't wear glasses!
  25. sidiousmd Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2002
    star 2
    The being inside R2D2 is in fact Yoda´s clone not Yoda´s twin

    And the other big twist is that Panaka is in reality Mace Windu´s long lost son.

    Panaka got married and had a baby called Lando who later adopted the last name Carlissian as an act of defiance towards his father.
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