PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jedi-Wanna-be, May 12, 2002.

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  1. sidiousmd Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2002
    star 2
    The being inside R2D2 is in fact Yoda´s clone not Yoda´s twin

    And the other big twist is that Panaka is in reality Mace Windu´s long lost son.

    Panaka got married and had a baby called Lando who later adopted the last name Carlissian as an act of defiance towards his father.
  2. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    You want proof? YOU WANT PROOF?!!!

    Here's your proof.
    Read my signature. READ IT!!

    How can anyone deny this fact? Those are the exact words from Lucas, the creator of Sidious and Palpatine.

    It's as crystal clear as you an get.

    If you still can't believe it, you simply have this weird desire for them to be clones or twins. I don't know why though. It would
    be the most pointless revelation of all time.

    If they are twins or whatever, won't episode 3 look like this:

    Obi Ruffs up Anakin.

    Anakin turns to Vader.

    Vader kills Mace.

    Vader kills Dooku.

    Sidious shoves Palpatine off a balcony shouting "thanks for all the help... sucker!"

    Sidious assumes the role of Chancellor Palpatine.


  3. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Chancellor Palpatine is Darth Sidious.
  4. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
  5. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    [face_shocked]

    I can not believe this is still going on. People accept that Dooku is Darth Tyranus, that Anakin is Darth Vader but not that Palpatine is Darth Sidious.

    This should be the easiest to understand! We know that Palpatine is a Sith. We see him in ROTJ! So what is his Sith name? What is Sidious' real name?

    The whole idea of sensing Sith is stupid anyway. If Jedi could do that there would never be any Sith. It is never implied that they can do it anyway - quite the opposite in fact.

    It is also a moot point - 'Sidious' lives on Coruscant anyway!

    Could it be they are one and the same?! [face_shocked]

    As well as at least 50 pieces of evidence supporting this in the films we have quotes such as:

    "Darth Sidious is Senator Palpatine in different clothes. No clones, no twins - nothing like that."

    ~Rick McCallum.

    "Palpatine is also Darth Sidious and that is Ian in the robe"

    ~Rick McCallum

    "Introducing Darth Sidious as a hologram was the way he was introduced actually in The Empire Strikes Back, which was the first time we actually saw him in the first three films" - George Lucas

    (+ throughout the commentary Lucas uses the two names interchangeably)


    Also read McDiarmid's interviews.

    Maybe in 1998 there was some room for speculation but at this point I really feel sorry for some people. They are missing out on a great story.

    Lucas puts in one plot twist in 1980 and suddenly a lot of people think he is a liar and that nothing could possibly be as it seems. He is not Fincher or Shymalan, he does not have the luxury. He is telling the story that needs to be told.
  6. Jacobinspace Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    this is so old! If you watch TPM, everytime palpatine talks, you can look at him and see his intentions arent pure. I just laugh that no one in the film can see how evil palpatine is. This arguement is old. George Lucas himself says they are the same and there are still those who doubt. So I am done with this.
  7. the_alpha_male Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    After Return of The Jedi was originally released I purchased the novel and it states unequivocally that the Emperor was known as Chancellor Palpatine during the days of the Old Republic and that he had manipulated and tricked his way to his position. If anyone has read the novelization they couldn't have missed it.
  8. LittleJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 4
    I don't really have a big problem with people thinking that Palpatine and Sideous aren't one and the same. However, you do seem to be convieniently ignoring many facts to support that they are the same.

    There's all the Lucas/McCallum quotes, saying that he is (why would they bother lying like that?), the fact that they look, sound etc, the same and basically live in the very same apartment (check out the balcony and the view - yes indeed it is one and the same.)! Then there's the musical clues, the quotes from the movies hinting at it, the novelisations (eg, as listed above)... the list goes on and on. This is proof. Speculating that GL wants to surprise us is not.

    People say that if they are one and the same, he would be lying. And they say this as if it backs up their argument... Hello! If Palpy is a sith, then he doesn't give a toss about lying, it's in their nature. They are deceptive people - it makes sense that they lie.

    And another quote that i haven't seen turn up in this particular thread, "We will watch your career with great intrest." Palpatine says this, not Sidious. If Palpy is really a nice little senator, with only political ambitions, with a clone/twin who is Force-sensitive, then, unless he wants Ani to be a politition (which doesn't fit this context - Ani just displayed exeptional skills as a Force-user basically, not as being a great ambassador or debator or anything), then he's fibbing too. It makes more sense that he is a Sith who thinks he's just found a perfect replacement for Maul...

    And one final point i'd like to make. It may not be real proof or anything - but when i saw TPM, i hadn't seen the OT - and I worked out that Palpy and Sidious were the same person without any help.

    End rant. :)

    -Little Jedi-
    MTFBWY
  9. aguywithabiggun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 1999
    star 4
    Wow, the NEVER ENDING debate!

    One thing though, and I'm SURE this has been stated already because it dosent take a genuis to notice, is the shot in TPM about the queen returning to naboo.

    Palpatine is CLEARLY playing the part he is needed to play in manipulating the queen. She says she's going, he says its dangerous, thus pushing her even MORE to go. But the important thing is, and Palpatine watches the queen leave, as the door shuts, he smiles..
  10. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    Yeah, it is very subtle and perhaps the scene wipes a little too soon but it's there. And it is in the screenplay.

  11. JOHN6370 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 1
    Sidious created a clone of himself, Palpatine. He manipulates events behind the scenes to get Palpatine into a dictatorial position. Once there, he offs the poor sap, and replaces him without anyone knowing it until too late. Then he uses the emergency powers granted by the Senate, to hunt down and destroy the Jedi.

    I have a feeling you are right on this one..I have read both books TFM and AOTC and they both make it seem like they are 2 different people..and yes i think PAlp is a clone of sidious...Also in AOTC the last pages of the book takk about sidious and palp being on to different parts of the planet at the SAME TIME>>>>>>...
  12. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    So, you are basically saying:

    1. George Lucas is a liar and a charlatan who can just talk complete rubbish while leaving the 'real' truth to be interpreted in a novel written by someone else.

    2. That the prequel trilogy is not a story that needs to be told but rather a practical joke designed to fool as many people as possible.

    3. That all of Ian McDiarmid's efforts on conveying subtlety of a duplicitous politician is a waste.

    4. That Palpatine, far from being the schemer and master villain orchestrating the downfall of the republic, is no better than one of the thousands of clones.

    Ok then. Maybe you better find some other films to watch.

    As for the novel, I think you will find that there is no such thing as both Salvatore and Brooks are fully aware of Palpatine's identity.
  13. Darth_Tarsh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2002
    star 1
    The best proof that Sidious=Palpy is the camera focusing on Palpy at the end of TPM after Mace asking Yoda: "But who has been killed...the apprentice...or the master?"
  14. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    Many ppl have said they cant be 2 diff. people, because that would ruin the prequels.

    Why? Just because its not what you personally want / expect?

    Personally, I think it would be beautiful. Truly Machiavellian.

    Any politician can manipulate events to get himself elected. Heck, look at the totally incompetent scum-bags you Americans have been electing as president for the last 30+ years. Proof positive that the public is easily duped :D .

    But to maneouver events behind the scenes to get a 3rd party elected. The Jedi would eventually suspect Palpatine. AFter all, he ordered the mustering of the clone army. But all of you seem to forget: those clones were ready to go already!!! Someone was working behind the scenes to get them ready, even before they were asked for. Who?

    Sidious! As I have said already, many times, he is a self-serving, manipulative coward. IN the OT, he used others to do his dirty work. Same in TPM. Same again in AOTC. It is not reasonable to think he would start his entire career by facing off against Yoda face-to-face and risk exposure, and certain death if discovered. He is a self-centered egomaniac and coward.

    The Jedi are the greatest threat to him in the Universe. By ROTJ, his security precautions are ridiculously incredible. Is it reasonable that the same person would flaunt himself in the faces of the entire JEDI COUNCIL???

    I have been a fan of Star Wars for 25 years; and the behaviour of Palpatine is not that of the Emperor from the OT. He is a brash, effusive, extroverted politician.

    It seems the argument for him being Sidious boils down to...

    "they act and behave differently in the film, to fool everyone into thinking they're 2 different people."

    But since no-one in the film even begins to suspect such a thing, there's no need for deception. It's only the AUDIENCE that needs to be fooled, if anyone.

    AND MY RECONCILIATION???

    How can they be different People, despite Rick McCallums statements, and the ROTJ action figure?

    OH so simple, ye of little grey cells!

    Sidious is the ORIGINAL PALPATINE.

    The senator is the CLONE.

    Hence, BOTH ARE PALPATINE.

    BUT ONLY ONE IS A SITH LORD!!!

    Does that explain it for the 'weak minded' now???

    Looking forward to all your apologies and 'gee, you were right's. :D
  15. darthmalorkus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    I apologize if this has been stated earlier (LONG thread), but I think the main thing those who think Palpatine is NOT Sidious have to undestand is that we are not supposed to know anything from the OT when watching the PT.


    If all you had to go on was TPM and AOTC, how obvious would it really be? Not very. You would have never known the name Emperor Palpatine (and in fact, that name was not even in the OT movies). You would not know what the Emperor looked like.

    All you would know is that Sidious and Palpatine seem to look and sound alike, and once Palpatine knows something or does something, so does Sidious.

    Plus, to be quite honest, making Palpatine a clone is a little too EU-Lucas has a little more sublety in his stories. EU tends to hit you over the head with the point.

    If you had never seen the OT, seeing Palpatine revealed as Sidious would be momentous. Hell, I know he is and I'm still looking forward to the scene. It doesn't need to be a huge surprise like Vader being Luke's father. There are plenty other potential surprises anyway-Anakin/Obi duel....Padme's fate, what happens to R2 and 3PO...

    Plus it is hard to deny when you actually hear quotes from the creator and executive producer stating the fact.


    EDITS:Spelling
  16. Carlito_Fett Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    ok first of all, im begining to agree with jedi wanna be.
    Bottom-line is theres no need for all this secrecy about whether pals=sid. it wouldnt be a big surprise. there must be something that devious Lucus is up to...
    how about the theory that palps is possessed by the sith spirit Sideous, and goes thru a hulk/banner transformation. Silly how it seems, but with Lucus , anything is possible
  17. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    1. How can Sidious hide himself from the entire jedi council, face-to-face?

    I'll buy that 'the dark side is hard to see'.
    And "the dark side clouds everything".
    But no-where does YODA say "WE are blind! we can see nothing! The sith could walk up to us and cut us down, cuz we cant sense them! Gosh, I wonder if he's here already, maybe my Laundry boy, waiting for me to fall asleep and chop me up1"
    I mean, come on, yoda ain't no padawan!!!
    He's a gosh-darned full-blown jedi master, 900 years in the Force!!!

    He's gonna know a Sith Master, face-to-face!

    Maybe Luke can be fooled; or Anakin; or Obi-wan. They're all 3 young and inexperienced. But Yoda? Puh-leeze!

    2. Sidious not telling Nute; and lying about needing treaty to both Nute and Maul?

    IN order to reconcile this inconsistency, you must apply Occam's razor. The simplest of 2 explanations is preferred as the truth.

    If he knows she is coming and does not care, then those scenes are complete lies for the purpose of deceiving Nute, Darth Maul, and the Audience. If you are going to propose he deliberately lies to all 3, you must give a motive for it. Not just Nute; that has been explained. But why Tell Maul to get the Queen to sign the treaty? If, as many of you say, he doesn't care any more. Also, why would GL lie to the audience? Its these very inconsistencies that made me wonder.

    Occam's razor gives us the simplest explanation. Sidious did not tell Nute because he didn't know. Sidious told Maul to get the Queen because he truly needed her.

    Let me remind you, my theory is consistent with the ACTUAL BEHAVIOUR of Palpatine and Sidious.

    Supposing them to be the same person, requires re-interpreting every scene in the film from what it appears to be.

    In literary analysis, if you have to re-define the character's actions and words in order to support your theory of events, you have failed. You have re-written the story to support your theory, and failed to analyze the original.

    The theory that Sidious lies to everyone in order to prove he is Palpatine, and that Palpatine was also lying, requires redefining the entire film. Which means the theory is a failure of analysis.

  18. aguywithabiggun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 1999
    star 4
    %%$%#%$!!

    I hate to admit it, I really do, but that makes sense!

    LOL

    However, the clone palpatine was obviously manipulating the queen for the express purpose of getting himself elected! So either this clone needs to be bitch slapped for trying to take over sidious's plans or he knew of his masters plans and was consorting.

    //headache
  19. Lord_Sidious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 3
    How can Sidious hide himself from the entire jedi council, face-to-face?

    I am open to the possibility that Sidious is [just as / a more] powerful force user than anyone on the council. Concealing his identity in front of the council likely requires tremendous skills and strength in the force.

  20. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    This debate is always interesting, though we do not agree.

    First of all, how much of the power of the Force and the dark side do we know. I don't believe either of us will be right since we have no proof.

    I say Sid=Palps and is hiding in plain sight, where the council is not looking for the darkside. I based this on the Jedi pride. First they believe that the Sith could not have return without them knowing. Then, at the end of AOTC, ObiWan tells Yoda and Mace about Dooku telling them that the Republic is under the control of the Dark lords, and they just says that Dooku is being deciteful, a liar and that a Sith could not be in control. Here again, Jedi Pride. I speculate from what I have seen. And Palps could be strong enough to hide the darkside and the fact he is using the force. We don't know how powerful he is, he could(or not) be stronger than Yoda. But remember, the Jedi in 4,5 and 6 are not there, so someone powerful had to be there to take over that much Jedi. I don't say he attacked and killed them all, but great power was needed to chain the event that lead to the end of the jedi.

    On the other hand, you says that Papls would have been discovered because Yoda is so powerful. Maybe, but if the Sith has been hidden from a millenia, how could Yoda(around 900) could know a Sith for sure. And why Yoda the magnificient could not stop Dooku and save Obi and Anakin at the same time ? I think you overestimate Yoda's power.
    I mean Sidious is obviously on Coruscant, so how the all-mighty Yoda could not sense him, he is quite close...

    Then, I will have to rewatch TPM, but from what I remmeber, Sid insist that he wants the treaty before the vote on Valorum is passed. After that, all he needs is time to get a sympathy vote for Palps. He buys this time by sending Maul to Naboo. This is not said, this is my interpretation and I admit I could be wrong.

    Then I go to the filmography hint : Music cue, panning on Palps, the smile(which is barely visible), the balcony, the looks and the dialog. Then I like the idea of a villain who played it out all in front of the good guys, instead of him having a clone running the senate for him.
  21. Darth_Iquitous Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 4
    I think Palpy and sidious are the same. Sidious is a sith, Palpatine is definitely a sith(by ANH at the latest). Sidious is Palpy's alter-ego. They do the exact opposite, that way they do not draw attention. It's possible, too, that the dark side can be masked, but we'll have to wait til thursday to find out.
  22. DarthSakroc Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2001
    star 4
    All these blatant comments from Lucas that Palpatine and Sidious are the same guy really confuse me. I wish he wouldn't say things like that so this issue would be more clear. ;)
  23. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    You present cogent and strong arguments.
    It is possible that Sidious is more powerful. I personally find it distasteful, however. Why? He would not need Anakin, then. He could wipe out the Jedi himself. There has to be a reason why Sidious needs Anakin; I think it's because he is more powerful than Sidious.

    If Palpatine was Sidious, then Yoda better provide a darned good explanation for why he could not sense him face-to-face. Otherwise, GL is gonna get a nasty e-mail from me - hehehe.

    Also, I do remember Palpatine's smirk / smile after the Queen leaves his chambers on Coruscant. It is noticable. And yes, the music does cue to Palpatine; as well as the shot of him at the Funeral in TPM.

    I wonder if GL is leaving himself an open door. Too many inconsistencies thus far. Definitely he is going to have to do a lot of reconciling of plot discrepancies in Ep.III.

  24. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    Bottom-line is theres no need for all this secrecy about whether pals=sid. it wouldnt be a big surprise. there must be something that devious Lucus is up to...

    FOR GOD'S SAKE. There is NO secrecy. Hence the camera shot in TPM and GL and RM freely admitting they are the same person. Listen to the TPM commentary, Lucas never even hints at any 'twist'. It is a straight-forward power play by Palpatine.
    What more do you need?

    IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE A BIG SURPRISE.

    Does Obi-Wan having a beard need to be debated and speculated on? Some things just have to be accepted as FACT whether you like it or not.

    -------------------------------
    If Palpatine was Sidious, then Yoda better provide a darned good explanation for why he could not sense him face-to-face. Otherwise, GL is gonna get a nasty e-mail from me - hehehe.

    Give me an example of when a Jedi can sense a Sith. Is this an ability you have made up?



  25. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    Sidious needs Anakin to do is dirty work, wiping some jedis ass. According to the prophecy, Anakin will bring balance and Sidious knows he could be a menace. If you can't beat them, join them, or have them join you :)

    Sidious is powerful and deceitful. I think Yoda would be in for quite a battle. However, Sidious is patient and will not take the risk to reveal himself plainly, not yet, in front of the jedi, they are too many. I mean, he is deceitful, and why could he not deceived the great Yoda himself. If I were Mace and Yoda, I would not have dismiss ObiWan comment about Dooku telling the republic is under the control of a Sith so easly. I would have gone geez, maybe he is right, let's check the senate. But noo, they just say bah impossible, he could not hide in front of us, he lies lies I teel YA, decietful he is !!

    As for inconsistency, well it depends on the interpretation of the movie, from what is said and seen. But you could be right about Lucas leaving himself an open door for the 2 possibilities. Heck he could decide not to reveal Sidious=Palps(or not) and we would debate this to the end of time....
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