PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jedi-Wanna-be, May 12, 2002.

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  1. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    Und,
    Sorry about the lightning. I was trying to get Maverick, but my browser must have gone to the wrong jedi.
  2. Disco_Dooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    All you have to do is put *OFFICIAL THREAD* in the subject area along with the title of the thread. Then PM a mod to close this if that is what we want.
  3. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    Should I post on a thread that moderator is on, or do I need to email them? I can't PM from here, unfortunately(work computer, very picky techs, though I'm lucky that this site doesn't show up on their radar. Lunch would be much lamer without these senseless diversions :D )
  4. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Who wants to sift through all the threads to find the pros and cons ? You may have to include the silly ones as well, perhaps as an addendum, a sort of afterthought to catch any stragglers that'll undoubtedly arise otherwise. :D
  5. Disco_Dooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    Odious, what are you gonna try to show?

    1. That one is a clone
    2. That one is a twin
    3. That there are 2 different people but not a clone or twin

  6. LukeDuff Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    The problem with showing both sides of the argument is that there aren't any good Palp=Sidious points.

    If you subtract all of the throwaway
    "It's obvious!",
    "I personally wouldn't like it if GL did that",
    "No way, that's bad storytelling!",
    "It's the same actor!",
    "They're both called Palpatine!",
    "OMG! They have the same chin!",
    "CLONES ARE t0t4lly GayX0r!" comments, there really isn't much left.

    The only thing I've seen that's truly pro Palp=Sidious is the statement on the back of the VHS box, which really shouldn't move anyone to conclusion. Go to any Block Buster and read a bunch of boxes, the plot synopses are sometimes wrong or even intentionally misleading if the movie has a twist in it.
  7. Darth_Odious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    I think I will use the opening post from this thread, but make it clear that it is Jedi-Wanna-Be's, and have a note at the top of it to read the first two posts before posting. Before I make the thread, I'll make a synopsis post on Word covering as much of the territory as possible that we've covered. That way, the thread will start with those two posts, without someone else being able to post in between. That'll be the official guide to the clone theory debate.

    I suppose I'll have to include both the clone and twin theory, though I don't think anyone's put forward that they're entirely different people, genetically speaking.
  8. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Luke,

    LOL! Now you're catchin' on. We've been going through this type of thing for the last 75 pages. :D There are more arguments for the Palpy=Sidious side, thusly the need for a pro/con debate, rather than a pro-debate only. It'll lower the incidences of inocuous posts such as those you listed.
  9. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    As a non clone supporter, I am not confused at all. I fully understand the clone side.

    A clone of sid would not break the rule of 2.
    Unless that clone is also a Sith. That would mean significant breakage.

    If Sidious kills Palpatine, he'd simply be reffered to as Palpatine from then on since he would assume his identity. That would debunk the Official site databank and the dvd commentary about Sid being in Empire.

    I don't care about balconies. I highly doubt they spent money to build two of them for TPM but balconies can look the same so sadly it doesn't prove anything.

    I get the clone theory. I just don't like it.

    Here's a few more anti-clone factoids I need to see you guys to debunk. It's all based around *gasp* common sense.

    -Making them 2 people will make it LESS of a twist and LESS dramatic for MOST of the moviegoers since they've been seeing them as 2 different people since TPM.

    -It's odd to come out and introduce them as 2 and then moments later kill one off. Now we're back to one again.

    -It's an unecessary trip in the storytelling since the dark side kicks tail anyway. It affects the story in no significant way outside the fact a clone was used. Sidious STILL becomes Emperor with either theory. Why not go for the more dramatic and less complicated path to the Emperor.

    -Which do you think would be more interesting? Seeing the good guys figure out the Sith Master cloned himself and used that clone as a pawn OR they were hanging out and chatting with the Sith Master himself all along.

    Personally, it would make me care less about the Palpatine in ROJ.

    Just had to give a non-clone update.

    Odius, this party is over! :)


    If you guys believe a clone is being used, then how exactly is Lucas setting this up to be a twist since they are never in the same scene and are portraying different personas. He's got a nice line dividing them so why would anyone (other than us anti-cloners) be shocked if they remained 2 different people. That's not a twist at all. It's kind of .... well... I don't want to say boring....


  10. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Rogue_Trader,

    All good points but these same will be lost in the forgetfulness of the thread's length if they are not stipulated as either pro or con arguments in the opening statement for the thread, to begin with. This is why we need an outline of sorts, to cover both pro and con arguments, clearly stated so new arrivals to the thread don't end up repeating the same arguments, pro or con, and drive the rest of us bonkers. :D
  11. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Palp=Sidious. You guys are nuts.
  12. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    I totally agree Undomiel. Your's is a good idea.
  13. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    *grins at Fox* Dangerously close you are coming to incurring the wrath of the redundacy master, who's primary job is to hound repeat performances with equally repetitive arguments that go on endlessly and end up sounding something like this,

    "I'm right and you're stupid."
    "No, I'm right and you're an idiot."
    "No, no, I'm right and you're all wrong!"

    Le mew, le sigh, le valium. :D
  14. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Undomiel, that's how you should reply to all of them.
    Whenever someone comes on and says "Palpy=Sid. Get over it."

    Reply every time with "I'm right. You're stupid."

    People don't know how to debate, even though I can't believe I need to debate this particular thing. I thought it was clear to all the fans but it obviously isn't.
  15. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    One of the main arguments of the palps is a clone/twin/different person side is that the Jedi should be able to detect Palpatine when he's in the same room with them if he was a sith or if he were strong with the force. However, the OS clearly states that Palpatine becomes Emperor and he is strong with the force. It even states one of his affiliations being with the sith. I bring to you, directly from the OS:

    Palpatine was the supreme ruler of the most powerful tyrannical regime the galaxy had ever witnessed, yet his roots are extremely humble, traced back to the peaceful world of Naboo.

    Before his rise to power, Palpatine was an unassuming yet ambitious Senator in the Galactic Republic. Palpatine saw the Republic crumbling about him, torn apart by partisan bickering and corruption. All too common were those unscrupulous Senators taking advantage of the system, growing fat and wealthy on a bureaucracy too slow to catch them.

    Palpatine's moment of opportunity came as a result of a trade embargo. The Trade Federation, in protest of government measures that would tax their outlying trade routes, blockaded and invaded Naboo. Naboo's planetary leader, Queen Amidala, rushed to Coruscant for Palpatine's aid. Together, the two pleaded to the Senate for intervention, only to see their request stalemated by Trade Federation filibustering. Frustrated by the government's inability to do anything, Queen Amidala acted upon Palpatine's suggestion, and called for a Vote of No Confidence in the Republic's leadership.

    Chancellor Valorum was voted out of office, and Palpatine was soon nominated to succeed him. The crisis on Naboo created a strong sympathy vote, and Palpatine became Chancellor. He promised to reunite the disaffected, and bring order and justice to the government.


    Despite his promises, the Republic continued to be mired in strife and chaos. A decade after his nomination, Palpatine's Chancellery was faced with the challenge of a popular Separatist movement led by the charismatic leader, Count Dooku. Many in the galaxy feared that the conflict would escalate to full-scale warfare, but Palpatine was adamant that the crisis could be resolved by negotiation.

    The Separatists didn't agree. Upon the discovery of a secret army of droids, it became apparent that the Separatists were on the verge of declaring war against the Republic. To counter this, the Republic needed a military, and Palpatine required the authority to activate the Republic's newly forged army of clones. To that end, Senators loyal to Palpatine motioned that the Chancellor be given emergency powers to deal with the Separatist threat.

    With spoken regrets, Palpatine accepted the new mantle of power. He promised to return his absolute authority to the Senate after emergency subsided. What no one realized was that the galaxy would undergo further upheaval, and that a state of crisis would ensure Palpatine's authority for decades.

    Palpatine instituted a military build-up unprecedented in galactic history. He created the New Order, a Galactic Empire that ruled by tyranny. The Jedi Knights, his biggest threat, were extinguished by his greatest dark side pupil: Anakin Skywalker, who had become Darth Vader.

    During the Galactic Civil War, Palpatine ruled with an iron fist. He disbanded the Imperial Senate, and passed control down to the regional governors and the military. During the Hoth campaign, Palpatine expressed to Vader his concerns over Luke Skywalker, a young Rebel powerful in the Force. Vader suggested that the two convert the youth to the dark side of the Force, an idea the Emperor seconded.

    The Emperor was a scheming ruler, planning events far in the future, using the Force to foresee the results. Palpatine allowed Rebel spies to learn of the location of the second Death Star, and foresaw their strike team and fleet assault. Palpatine crafted an elaborate trap that was to be the end of the Rebellion. He also concentrated on converting Luke Skywalker to the dark side of the Force, even at the expense of sacrificing Vad
  16. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Lukeduff, "No way. That's bad storytelling." may sound like a stupid rebuttal but I can think of no better way to describe the clone theory if it's used.
  17. netslave Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 2
    ok, I've been gone for a little while but I see nothing has changed. haha ;)

    the problem with their arguments that say definitely, absolutely, and positutley that palp=sid is that there is no actual, physical connection between the two CHARACTERS in either of the films. discounting offscreen interviews, discounting the credit, but the actual storyline on film. ;) ok I done.
  18. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    There is also NO movie evidence to say that they are CLONES either. We just don't know.
  19. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Darth OlsenTwins. Good to see you. We need more anti-clone people in this thread again.
  20. netslave Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 2
    exactly. ;) that was my argument all along. hehe. even I want think they will be different in the end, there's no PROOF either way. a real debate is useless. :)
  21. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    I now submit to you my new theory:

    Anakin Skywalker is NOT Darth Vader. He was killed by someone else who took his place. I mean, just look at the height difference! Even in ANH Obi-Wan said Vader killed Anakin Skywalker. How can a person kill themself and still be alive? I mean, clearly that's BS. I know ROTJ has not come out yet, but I'm sure it will affirm my suspicion that Darth Vader is not Luke's father but in fact killed his father. I mean come on, wouldn't Luke be able to "feel" Darth Vader's presence as his father? And how come Vader doesn't sense Luke is his son until he finds out his name? It's all a bunch of BS, Darth Vader and Anakin are two different people!
  22. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Foxbatklr's HUGE Official Site post above is a great read. The only way to disprove it would be to say that Sidious lied to the OS as well about assuming the role of Palpatine.
  23. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Rogue, my post about Anakin and Darth Vader being two different people is basically a reply to the cop-out argument "well he was just lying about it."
  24. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah. I know. I was reffering to your other post.
  25. netslave Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 2
    I wonder why there's a seperate post for sidious then? hmmmmm
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