PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jedi-Wanna-be, May 12, 2002.

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  1. Esplin9466 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, the Dark Jedi clone in Zahn's trilogy is Joruus C'Baoth, not Palpatine (he gets resurrected later, in one of the few works that gives the EU a bad name). The original C'Baoth's earliest chronological appearance is in "Cloak of Deception." Kudos to James Luceno for continuity. Everyone who counts the EU as canon, like myself, must deal with the atrocious "Dark Empire" trilogy, in which Palpatine's spirit takes over a consecutive trio of clone bodies to try and resurrect the Empire. He fails, of course. For anyone interested in Sith/Jedi clones, I recommend "Heir to the Empire" by Timothy Zahn, "Dark Force Rising" by Timothy Zahn, "The Last Command" by--you guessed it--Timothy Zahn, the graphic novels "Dark Empire," "Dark Empire II," and "Empire's End." And, just for the heck of it, throw in "Cloak of Deception." Yes, I am a jerk for advertising the EU and not saying anything pertaining to this thread, aren't I?
  2. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    The key to understanding the whole Palpatine thing lies in asking yourself the question "what point does it serve storywise to make them 2 different people?"

    Apply common sense and you'll have your answer. ;)
  3. darkOmegazer0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 4
    Just more proof of their looking alike, in the end of attack of the clones we see Sidious walking with Dooku, Palpatine's aged facial features are visable on Sidious' in the same places, take a look if you can.
  4. Yoda_Not_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 1
    Hate to butt in there, but...

    If Palpatine IS NOT Sidious, then Anakin will be made to look more like a passive victim of this random MR. Sidious's plot instead of the active participant he is, the tragic charactor who willing CHOOSES to follow the dark side through his apprenticeship with a Senator who he admired, as is shown in AOTC. If Sideous simply Replaces Palpatine, Vader will look more like a DUPE and less like a tragic hero in the long run.
  5. Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 4
    Not Grover -

    I, too, feel that one's path in the Force must indeed be a matter of conscious choice, of informed decision...

    ...however, there seems to be one important difference between the Light and the Dark.

    Ben tells Luke "You must do what you feel is RIGHT, of course..." momentarily conceding that Luke may not join the Force-driven bandwagon to Alderaan. Luke COULD still, at that point, have chosen NOT to be a Jedi.

    However, Vader is forever spouting rhetoric like "I MUST obey my master."

    Apparently Siths can never "step down" the way Jedi can (as per the "Lost Twenty"), but this has yet to be illuminated...

    This "Power of the Dark Side" that removes all elements of chance, of free will...

    Somehow, the Dark Decisions seem to be made for you. Once you willingly embrace the path, you somehow FORFEIT the ability to choose, from that moment on.

    Maybe a Sith apprentice is, by definition, a dupe, as of the moment he willingly steps on the treadmill.

    I wonder how this will all be addressed in Ep III.
  6. Sau-Den Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2002
    star 4
    I just decided to read the first page so I don't know if this has been brought up, but Luke did not ignite his lightsaber before he saw Vader.

    He walked up to Vader put his blaster away and they stood looking at each other for a moment and then Luke pulled out his lightsaber and ignited it.
  7. PLO_KOON_DUDE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 2
    Ugh this was a debate that took place a few months ago, then it was pretty big. (I took place in it) then someone provided quotes from GL and we callde it undisputed and the debate stopped, so theres really nothing to debate
  8. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    The Sith have yellow eyes.
    The Emperor had yellow eyes. Darth Maul had yellow eyes. Dooku will probably have yellow eyes once his fall is complete (between EP2 & 3). Yoda had yellow eyes when he probed the Dark Side. Anakin had no yellow eyes when he returned to the good side.
    Palpatine has no yellow eyes. Palpatine = not a Sith.

    Apparently Siths can never "step down" the way Jedi can

    "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

    "By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the Dark Side of the Force."

    - At least Palpatine assumes there is no way back from the Dark Side.
  9. Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, Ree Yees - (is that "Bee Gees" in Japanese? kidding) -

    However, the Emperor is later to be seen standing naked in his stunning "new clothes."

    His assertion that you can never turn back is a bunch of BS.

    I continued to ponder this question and came up with an angle -

    Be forewarned, I posted it on the EPISODE III SPOILERS forum:
  10. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    So Palpatine doesn't have yellow eyes so that means he's not a Sith.

    Glad we got that cleared up.


    I suggest EVERYONE who doubts they are the same person go read the Palpatine section in the art of attack of the clones book.

    You'll find all the answers there.

    Having them be 2 different people is not only pointless but stupid too.
  11. zeva Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 2
    we have't seen Sidious's eyes yet. You're assuming they are yellow because it fits your "yellow eyes theory". Until we see them, (which will probably happen only after the Palpatine persona is left behind) the eyes theory is unusable.
  12. indy4 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    I think the best evidence that Palpatine and Sidious are the same is revealed in the
    line from "TPM",
    Sidious to Viceroy:
    "I have the Senate bogged down in...(something, something)"
    He's obviously referring to his role as Palpatine in the Senate
  13. JediSpeedos Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2002
    star 1
    I'm surprised that this debate has gone for as long as it has, too. Having Sidious and Palpatine be entirely different people would be silly and pointless. It's scary that some of the folks that want the two characters to be different are the same people who believe Lucas doesn't know what SW is about anymore. I can't imagine what a disaster of a film Lucas would end up with if he listened to some of these fans' advice.

  14. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    "I have the Senate bogged down in procedures..."

    ("...through my puppet Palpatine, my very own clone. A shame midichlorians can't be cloned or I'd make an army of Sith.")

    Palpatine must be a clone to illustrate why Sidious doesn't clone Sith Lords or corrupted Jedi instead of a bounty hunter.
  15. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Um, no. You don't go around cloning Sith unless you want to destroy your ultimate goal and possibly yourself. That is, even if you COULD clone midichlorians.

    There are only 2 for a reason.

    Ree-Yees, all I can say is that Palpatine has you fooled just like the rest of the Galaxy.
  16. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    RogueTrader, he's not fooling me :) I like to discuss it from different points of view ;)
  17. black_saber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Ok get your head straight and think harder they are the same person. Ok listen, Mace Windu wanted an army for the rebulic and it happened to be the clones and the clones were part of the sperist. The reason why the jedi got the army is the sentor plaptine played sides with the rebulic and his a seperist suppoter. Oh and one more thing don't forget that Yoda sensed something that palptine had someting to do with padme trying to get killed. There sentor palptine is Darth Sidoues
  18. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I like the yellow eyes theory. I don't believe it, but it IS original.

    I do think it's interesting how we never see Sidious' eyes.

    Ree Yees, I used to argue the 2 people/Palpy-clone thing a few months ago.

    But I was convinced by the (apparently) unimpeachable quotes from Lucas et al.

    However, I STILL don't buy that Lucas' "big surprise" in this trilogy is that Sidious is Palpatine.

    Yeah, there's so many similarities. So many that it's obvious. Was it obvious that Vader was Luke's father? No.

    Uh...why would you want thousands of Sith for your clone army? Isn't that a little like playing with fire? Except more like playing with nitroglycerine. Plus, if you wanted them to be Force wielders, imagine how long it would take to train them all.

  19. masterkin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2002
    star 1
    Crap, too many points to mention that totally contradict this theory. I shall leave it at crap.
  20. Undomiel Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    The New Old Clone Theory List (Revisited...again)


    1. Palpatine's face looks like its about to fall off but Sidious looks exactly the same as he did in TPM. No one has explained this so far, they just say Palpatine = Sidious. This doesn't answer the question. He looks exactly the same as he did in TPM, whereas Palpatine has aged / decayed considerably. If Palpatine is a clone (as some have been suggesting, and this would tie in with the accelerated aging), it would also compliment the Jango Fett / Boba Fett storyline quite nicely (cloning yourself).

    2. Now Dooku knew about Sidious back when he was training Qui-Gon which predates TPM! This means that Sidious was still controlling the senate while Qui-Gon was still in training. What was much younger Palpatine doing then?

    3. On most occassions [except the balcony scene with Maul], Sidious appears as a hologram to those outside his warehouse hideaway. Why? This is most likely due to the fact he never leaves the hideaway. The Emperor went to great lengths to keep his movements and whereabouts secret. He also guarded himself at all times, even when Vader was present. Note his rebuke (and seeming mistrust?) of Vader when he returned to the Death Star after sensing Luke. The Imperial Guard is present. The Emperor does not even trust Vader. Considering the Emperor goes to such extremes to protect himself from even those he seemingly trusts, it is absurd he would expose himself to immense personal danger by spending any time in the presence of the entire Jedi Council. This guy's a coward at heart; he values his own life too much to risk it foolishly. He prefers to risk the lives of others to do his dirty work. (Mara Jade and her like, Boba Fett, Darth Maul, etc.)

    4. Lucas doesn't keep it a secret they are one and the same, and yet he blocks the upper portion of Sidious' face, and more specifically his eyes. Why his eyes? Palpatine's eyes in TPM and AotC are blue. The Emperor's eyes in ESB and RotJ are yellow. I wonder what color Sidious eyes will be or if we'll ever get to see his face and eyes without the hood in Episode III.

    5. Just as Padme stepped forward on Naboo and took on the role of the queen, similarly, Sidious will step forward and take on the role of Emporer. Remember that in TPM, Padme uses her decoy (Sabe) to play both sides as it were. It is a dual identity that convieniently allows her to explore tattooine with Qui Gonn and go unoticed, yet at the same time stay on the board the ship in case any assination attempts are made. In this sense, the same sort of thing is happening with Sidious / Palpatine. Sidious is using Palapatine to control the Senate while he does all the work behind the scenes. Star Wars is all about recurring themes. Lucas loves parallels:
    -Destruction of clone ship/Death stars
    -Way they're destroyed (young boy saving the day)
    -Repeated "pit of death" that acquires Maul, Luke's hand, and Sidious
    -Second film love stories between the rebellius man and stately woman
    -Dooku/Anakin's turning to the dark side
    -There are many more, but I think these are enough for the purposes of this post.

    6. I don't think there has been anything presented IN THE MOVIES that paints GL into an impossible corner re Sidious' identity. The fact that the same actor is playing Sidious/Palpatine doesn't (actors often play multiple roles!), nor does the fact that the Emperor is referred to as Palpatine (is he even CALLED this in the movies, BTW? - would the average moviegoer, not someone steeped in SW lore, KNOW that name in reference to the Emperor?). We all know that "creative writing", good or bad, can change just about anything - and didn't I read that GL in fact changed his mind re Vader being Luke's Dad? - and absent a scene of Sidious doffing that hood, etc, we don't have anything IN THE MOVIES that makes it a stone cold lock that these are the same guys.

    7. It's been shown many times that Jedi are remarkably adept at feeling disturbances in th
  21. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Excellent post, Undomiel. My beliefs were shaken by the Sid-is-Palpists.

    I agree that it makes way more sense to have Palpatine be a clone. My brother and I were trying to figure out what the "big surprise" would be in the PT, and we came to similar conclusions.

    But hey, I was arguing a while back that Sidious orchestrated Shmi's kidnapping!

    Anyway, just to add to the debate, you spoke of the whole "certain point of view" theme that runs through SW.

    Look at it this way: one of the MAJOR points that the Sid-is-Palpists make is that Lucas, McCallum, McDermid, everybody has said that Sidious IS Emperor Palpatine.

    Just like Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker.

    You see, Sidious IS Palpatine, or, more accurately, Palpatine IS Sidious. A clone of Sidious.

    Therefore GL et al can say "Sidious and Palpatine" are the same, and technically they may be right...but there are two separate, distinct persons existing.

    The real question then would be: is Palpatine a willing puppet, or is he unaware of his real origins?

    It would be a very interesting twist to have Palpatine actually be a good (while very pliable) person! Imagine such lines as "I love democracy. I love the Republic."

    And Sidious would seem like even more of a hidden mastermind, b/c he doesn't even (physically) control the Senate!

    Then again, it's late and I'm supposed to be working on a paper.

  22. Sciwalker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 1
    <b>Give me an example of when a Jedi can sense a Sith. Is this an ability you have made up?

    "Vader's on that ship."

    "You're imagining things."
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    I'll take the challenge Undomiel.

    1. Notice that Palpatine's face is aged everywhere, except for his chin and upper mouth. The same spot that's not covered by his hood. Also, you only see his face for a few seconds. Not enough to get a really good look.

    2. Dooku didn't know of Sidious. No one did. He knew Palpatine, according to eu sources about 20 some years earlier. He met him as Sidious after Naboo. Palpatine didn't become Supreme Chancellor until then, and not before then.

    3. Palpatine as Emperor has the Crimson Guard not cause he doesn't trust Vader, but for protection as he is a "seemly innocent man" and not a Dark Lord of the Sith. Notice that he dismisses the guards when it comes time to convert Luke. He's completely alone with Vader and Luke. He only appeared in hologram form in TPM, because he's on Courscant manipulating things personally. He can't be in two places at once, without using the holonet.

    4. Notice that our first scene with the Emperor in ROTJ, we don't see his eyes that well. In fact it isn't until the first scene in the throne room, that we do see his eyes. Dooku is a Sith Lord, yet has no yellow eyes. Maul did because he's from Zabrak, an alien. The eye color change means that the dark side is decaying him more and more. He's rotting from the evil inside of him.

    5. You're half right, but it's the idea that Sidious has a dual identity as Palpatine. Not a decoy. A clone leaves open the possibility that one was used at Endor, according to your view of him. Lucas doesn't want to leave it open like that.

    6. We have evidence that they are the same in the form of clues and foreshadowing. Not everyone has made the connection to them being the same. Palpatine's name is never said or seen in the OT, just the same as there's no credit listing for Darth Sidious in the PT, but there is for Palpatine. Possible that while writting ROTJ, he came up with the idea of his having two identities and thus, didn't credit him in ESB or ROTJ.

    7. "Hard to see the dark side is."

    "Impossible, the Sith couldn't return without our knowing it."

    "Blind we have become, if the creation of this clone army we could not sense."

    "The shroud of the dark side has fallen."

    "I have felt him."

    "Strange that I haven't."

    "The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision."

    These quotes show that the balance in the Force has shifted and the Jedi are growing weaker and weaker. That the Sith can hide in plain sight of the Jedi. The Jedi couldn't sense the Sith growing in power, yet the Sith could sense one Padawan grow strong. The cave is not hiding from Luke, like the Sith were. The Sith have been growing stronger for the last 1,000 years. The Jedi as told to us through Yoda, are arrogant. And that arrogance is the cause of their weakness and eventual destruction. They've allowed themselves to become that way and on top of his hiding in plain sight, the Jedi don't suspect him or feel him.

    BTW, Yoda can't feel the Sith on Courscant. If they had, they'd take after them right away. Qui-gon and Obi-wan couldn't feel Maul on Tatooine or Naboo. Palpatine/Sidious couldn't feel Luke, but Vader could.

    8. Who said it had to be that big a deal? If Lucas has to say, "It's obvious if you think about it hard enough" then it's no big secret. And if people had stopped to pay attention in ANH and in ESB, you wouldn't need to see ROTJ to have confirmation that Anakin is Vader.

    9. "Certain point of view" has refered to alot. It only refers to what Obi-wan said to Luke, not Lucas. He has never said that about plot points. A better method is to do what he did in the OT, not make it so obvious to the viewer. It worked then and it works now.

    10. "Always in motion is the future." Yoda tells us that even when the future looks solid, the paths we take determine our future. We have our destiny, but they're several different ways to reach it. Anakin's was to kill Palpatine. The logical way was to take his training seriously and fight him one on one. Instead, he followed his emotions and the road to power, that's
  24. An_elegant_weapon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2002
    I am a new poster,however, I have visited these boards everyday since before TPM was released. Like many of you I don't understand why this is still debated.

    If you listen to the comentary on the TPM DVD during the sidious hologram scene at the begining of the movie George Lucas says:

    " Introducing Darth Sidios as a hologram was actually the way he was introduced in The Empire Strikes Back which was the first time we actually saw him in the first three films."

    So GL clearly states Sidios is the Emperor we know from the OT. He also makes a point during the senate scenes to state:

    " The thematic issue is about how palpatine becomes chancelor. Telling how he moved to the next level and when you see all of the films together it will make alot more sense. This is a small issue that transcends all 6 movies and not just cleared up in this one scene. In episode 2 he'll make another step, and in episode 3 he makes another step."

    GL said all 6 movies meaning palpatine is the same emperor.He also talked about putting the scene in where palpatine says he'll watch Anakins carrer with great intrest, because he felt it was necessary that the two interact during the first movie and we all know the scene in his office in AOTC.

    Even the back of the VHS box for TPM says Palpatine, well known as the evil emporer, is now an ambitios senator in the republic.

    In short GL states they're the same people.

    I was also wondering why people would like them not to be the same. I think when watching all 6 films together it will be cool to watch how Darth Sidios played both sides. Thats what he does! Look at ROTJ the way he takes pride in being able to manipulate everything around him. Thats what makes Anikans redemption so great. One of his plans finally backfired on him. He never saw it coming.

    If they aren't the same person, what is the point of even watching all those senate scenes in EP I & II and soon EP III. It would be pointless and ruin all the set up GL has created to explain how the Sith gained control of the galaxy.

    I can't think of any reason why them being two difrent people would be beneficial from a story standpoint or a fans.

  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Because unless he says the words outright, they won't buy it.
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