PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jedi-Wanna-be, May 12, 2002.

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  1. Tiu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2002
    It's fun to sit and watch this specific argument.

  2. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Sinister:

    1. Notice that Palpatine's face is aged everywhere, except for his chin and upper mouth. The same spot that's not covered by his hood. Also, you only see his face for a few seconds. Not enough to get a really good look.

    If it doesn't look THIS [see pic below] bad, there may be some validity to the argument. We should know for sure when the DVD comes out in a couple days.
    [image=http://futureprometheus.com/arts/palpy.jpg]

    2. Dooku didn't know of Sidious. No one did. He knew Palpatine, according to eu sources about 20 some years earlier. He met him as Sidious after Naboo. Palpatine didn't become Supreme Chancellor until then, and not before then.

    Ah, you misunderstood and missed the real crux of the question. If Sidious was controlling the senate for that long, how did he do so as Palpatine, if Palpatine was just some relatively unknown politician from Naboo? How does one manipulate the Senate via a persona, if that persona has very little power to begin with? Instead, it's more likely he was manipulating the Senate via other politicians and power bases (Trade Fed, etc) until his Palpatine clone could be manipulated into the position Sidious wanted to take for himself - Emperor.

    3. Palpatine as Emperor has the Crimson Guard not cause he doesn't trust Vader, but for protection as he is a "seemly innocent man" and not a Dark Lord of the Sith. Notice that he dismisses the guards when it comes time to convert Luke. He's completely alone with Vader and Luke. He only appeared in hologram form in TPM, because he's on Courscant manipulating things personally. He can't be in two places at once, without using the holonet.

    He has the crimson guard because he doesn't trust anyone. Not even Vader. He even begins to doubt Vader's loyalty when he finds he cannot sense Luke and yet Vader can [think of the implications! Vader was force blocking Sidious and hiding Luke from the Emperor until such time as Vader could determine if Luke would join him against Sidious?! Blink, blink. How'd he do that if Sidious is the stronger sith? ]. When Vader brings his own son as a sacrifice, Vader strengthens and reaffirms his dedication to Sidious with this action. Sidious then has the courage to dismiss the guards. His last mistake.

    4. Notice that our first scene with the Emperor in ROTJ, we don't see his eyes that well. In fact it isn't until the first scene in the throne room, that we do see his eyes. Dooku is a Sith Lord, yet has no yellow eyes. Maul did because he's from Zabrak, an alien. The eye color change means that the dark side is decaying him more and more. He's rotting from the evil inside of him.

    Even in ESB, Sidious' eyes are yellow, glowing orbs not blue eyes.

    5. You're half right, but it's the idea that Sidious has a dual identity as Palpatine. Not a decoy. A clone leaves open the possibility that one was used at Endor, according to your view of him. Lucas doesn't want to leave it open like that.

    Palpy will be replaced by Sidious, who will then call himself Palpy.

    6. We have evidence that they are the same in the form of clues and foreshadowing. Not everyone has made the connection to them being the same. Palpatine's name is never said or seen in the OT, just the same as there's no credit listing for Darth Sidious in the PT, but there is for Palpatine. Possible that while writting ROTJ, he came up with the idea of his having two identities and thus, didn't credit him in ESB or ROTJ.

    If you read any of the material published since the movie came out, you would be immediately alerted to the Sidious=Palpatine concept. And he IS Palpatine, from a certain point of view.

    7. "Hard to see the dark side is."

    "Impossible, the Sith couldn't return without our knowing it."

    "Blind we have become, if the creation of this clone army we could not sense."

    "The shroud of the dark side has fallen."

    "I have felt him."

    "Strange that I haven't."

    "The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision."

    These qu
  3. tnt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 4
    This does not explain why it is necessary for him to hide only the upper portion of his face - the only portion of his face where his identity as Palpatine could or could not be proven. Since GL seems willing to say they are the same in press releases, etc, why then go to all the trouble of hiding his face, and most specifically his eyes? What purpose does it serve to say they are the same and yet pretend they are not in the film?

    He could have worn a Vader type mask, but where would that leave us (the audience)?

    I think, from watching the films, it's obvious that the guy with hood over his head is Palpatine and not his clone, twin brother etc.
  4. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    TNT,

    It's obvious? That's the problem. It's obvious. And if it's obvious, why then pretend it's not obvious? Why say, "Sure, they are the same." And then hide the face so there's a mystery where no mystery truly exists? He doesn't hide his eyes in ESB or ROTJ, yet he does in TPM and AOTC, in every scene. Why? Cause them eyes glow, baby, glow. hehe
  5. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Indeed.

    If they were/are the same person, Lucas could have done more with Sid-is-Palpy:

    it would have been cool to see Sidious talking to Nute Gunray or Dooku or somebody via hologram, and then have the doorbell ring to his private apartments. He then flips the hood back, and entertains a guest as Palpatine.

    If the entire point is that nobody w/in the film itself knows that they are the same (except Dooku, I 'spose), they why not do things like this?

    If he really is powerful enough to block his presence from Yoda, why not have Yoda come visit him when attired as Sidious?

    That would show just how devious he is.

    Instead we have Sidious making one appearance, at the very end of AOTC. Why the new "abandoned warehouse" hideout?

    I also have a hard time believing that Palpatine, as Leader of the Entire Galaxy, could just saunter off to his abandoned warehouse whenever he bloody well felt like it.

    Either that or he's had the need for sleep surgically removed.:)


    -dust
  6. tnt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 4
    It's obvious? That's the problem. It's obvious. And if it's obvious, why then pretend it's not obvious? Why say, "Sure, they are the same." And then hide the face so there's a mystery where no mystery truly exists? He doesn't hide his eyes in ESB or ROTJ, yet he does in TPM and AOTC, in every scene. Why? Cause them eyes glow, baby, glow. hehe

    The reason why the supporting cast of TPM and AOTC, can't see his eyes is because they ain't suppose to know he's Palps. But we (the audience) have reasonable grounds for believing it is him. If we (the audience) saw all of his face then so would the supporting cast and his cover would have been blown...

    The alternative is to cover his face completely, but then we (the audience) would never believe that Palps could possibly be Sidious.
  7. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Why does it matter what Dooku and Maul know about Sidious? They are his partners in crime. And, I might add, they are the only ones that have seen Sidious first hand. How would he hide his eyes from them in the same room? During Training? He'd have to glue that hood to his face. The rest of the time he appears as a hologram but only to people who aren't his apprentices. This is all very odd!
  8. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    DEAR LORD GET OVER IT! Palpy = Sidious!
  9. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
  10. dmt216 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2002
    duh palp/sidious is using that as a way to stay and gain ultimate power hes killing 2 or more birds with 1 stone so to speak
    his term should have been over as supreme chancellor he's using dooku to keep the crisis up so he can keep his power and the army of clones will assure he gains more power.
  11. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
  12. DarthSidious990 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2002
    star 4
    Just look at the mouth of sidious, then palpatine. The same.
  13. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Variations in a clone? Hmm, new one on me. ;)
  14. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    I can't wait until Epiosode 3 so this stupid argument will die!

    I don't know why so many people want them to be 2 different people. Have we forgotten what drama is? Having Palpatine be the one and only manipulator is GOLD. Making them 2 people is so pointless for so many reasons I can't type them all out.
  15. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    RogueTrader,

    Actually, I don't view it as stupid because of the implications. If Palpatine is indeed Sidious, the jedi will look like a bunch of apemen. As another person mentioned, if Sid and Palp are the same person, the Jedi will appear so stupid that their extinction will be not so much the result of an evil and cunning plan but more likely a form of natural selection.

    It will also fly in the face of common sense. Common sense dictates that Sidious' face would, at any given moment, be visible in its entirety to his apprentices. They would therefore, have some inkling of who he was. Why then are the scenes in which he speaks with his apprentices, are we not shown his eyes just as they would be? What's the purpose for this that'd bear any resemblance to logic? It certainly isn't a mystery to us! We know he's supposed to be Palpatine. GL says it repeatedly, as well.
  16. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Hey, Undomiel!!! Haven't seen you in a while. Didn't mean to bark at your ideas on this subject.

    Here's how I feel (the short version):

    The jedi stupid? No. I don't believe this at all. These aren't obvious things going on here. There is a huge disruption in the force that is hindering the jedi's ability to pinpoint where the sith is and what he's up to. C'mon, after a millenia in hiding, surely the sith have devised the ultimate plan to wipe out the jedi. This is what we're seeing.
    (imagine trying to swat a bee in an ampitheatre with your eyes closed. you know it's there, and it's very annoying but you can't isolate where it is EXACTLY at any given moment)

    I have a problem with them being 2 people because it greatly reduces the drama factor for me. Not only that, it would make the Palpatine character very shallow for me and essentially ruin what I thought he was ever since I was a kid. Not altering. Ruining.

    When the jedi realise it was Palpatine all along, imagine what will got through their minds. You absoulutely could not get the same effect the other way.

    And lets not forget, the first time we see Palpatine IN THE FLESH talking to his 3rd apprentice while departing his shuttle in ROJ, you couldn't see his eyes at all either. And that scene was much longer than the ones with Maul and Dooku.

  17. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    RogueTrader,

    Hey, Undomiel!!!

    Hello RT.

    The jedi stupid? No.

    The jedi stupid. Yes. Yoda's a 900 year old jedi master. If he can't pick up on a Sith Lord in the same room with him, something ain't right. I can see him not being able to isolate the exact area on the planet, but in the same room?


    I have a problem with them being 2 people because it greatly reduces the drama factor for me.

    I can understand this. However, the drama would still be there, just a different level of drama.

    Not only that, it would make the Palpatine character very shallow for me and essentially ruin what I thought he was ever since I was a kid.

    He'd still be Sidious, just an extension of Sidious. Like I'm still me, but these words an extension of me. So they would essentially still be fooled by a Sith Lord, just not to the point of it being ludicrous.

    When the jedi realise it was Palpatine all along, imagine what will got through their minds.

    Why would they not be shocked when they find out it was Sidious manipulating Palpatine, like a puppet, all along? He's still destroying them, just the same. He's still infiltrated them, just the same. He's been manipulating the senate through Palpatine, just the same. For all accounts and purposes, the only thing that'd be less dramatic is the jedi would be able to save some face and not look like total ninnies.

    And lets not forget, the first time we see Palpatine IN THE FLESH talking to his 3rd apprentice while departing his shuttle in ROJ, you couldn't see his eyes at all either. And that scene was much longer than the ones with Maul and Dooku.

    But we've seen Sidious MANY times now, through two films and not once do we see his eyes - not even for a brief second. Why all the mystery when there's not a mystery to begin with?

  18. StormChewieJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 2
    WHY IS THIS DAMN THREAD STILL IN EXISTENCE??!! I thought that we established that Jedi-Wanna-be was TOTALLY WRONG AND SHOULD HAVE NEVER SAID ANY OF THE STUFF HE SAID ON THIS THREAD. PALPATINE IS SIDIOUS!!! That's ENOUGH!!!
  19. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    StormChewieJedi,

    This thread is still here because there's still too many plot holes and unanswered questions to suit some people's tastes, me included. Can you prove me wrong?
  20. Darth_Poutine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 3
    What's funny is that there probably won't be a "revelation" scene in episode 3 and people will still debate this after the movie's out...
  21. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    That's what both sides are actually hoping, Darth Poutine.:)

    Undomiel...take it easy. I'm supporting you, and I too believe it would be a subtle plot twist, and not the "idiocy" everyone makes it out to be.

    Of course no one can "prove" absolutely that they're the same person. Just like neither you nor I can prove that Palpatine is a clone.

    As a matter of fact, the clone theory IS far more fanciful. The most likely scenario IS that Palpatine=Sidious.

    Let's be honest here.

    BTW, I totally agree that the whole "wow, Sidious is SO POWERFUL in the Force that Yoda and 10,000 other Jedi can't even sense him when they were 5 feet from him" thing sucks.

    I want an explanation on the nature of the Force and the fact that 2 Sith (but mostly just 1) can somehow subvert the Force and defeat 10,000 Jedi.

    Tell me, Yoda. You tell Luke that the Dark Side is not stronger it is "faster, more seductive. Easier." or whatever.

    Why are you lying like that?

    Obviously the DS is superior, at least that's what we've been shown in the PT.

    Please, please let Obi-Wan, acting as the penultimate Jedi Knight, legitimately defeat Vaderkin in the duel - if it's some sort of "whoops, Anakin stumbled - how CRUEL the fates are!" thing, it's going to prove that the Light Side has dumb luck and destiny on its side, but it is not as powerful as the DS.

    "Easier...more seductive." Yup, and more powerful to boot!

    All of which is at least partially defeated if Palpatine is a clone.

    -dust
  22. MikeSolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2002
    star 4
    I one to believe that Palpatine is Sidious and Sidious is Palpatine.... I dunno if anyone has brought this up but, I just finished reading the book verison of TPM and at the very end when everyone is watching Qui burn up. They talk about how Sidious is back on Coruscant dealing with the news about the death of Darth Maul. So it made me think if Palpatine is Sidious how can they be in two different places at the sametime...Maybe He is just really good with the force I dunno its just something to think about.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    2. The Palpatine persoality slowly built up his political base, like real life politcians do. They make connections, offer deals and the like. Greases a lot of palms and feeds off of their egos.

    3. Vader wasn't Force blocking Luke. Be serious. Palpatine/Sidious did become over confident and arrogant, and that's why he couldn't feel Luke. Much like the Jedi had grown weak as the balance was shifting, here it's shifting back and the consquence is that the Sith are growing weaker.

    4. You can't even see that his eyes are yellow in ESB. You see that his eyes are funky looking, but not yellow.

    6. Your certain point of view.

    7. Where is it said that Yoda knows the Sith are on Courscant? I haven't read the AOTC novelization, but I'm damn sure it's not in there. If he could feel him, he would call all the Jedi together and they'd do a massive manhunt for him.

    8. Which goes to show that there is no reason for it to be a surprise. "It's obvious if you think about it hard enough." Doesn't sound like he's got a plan up his sleeve regarding it.

    12. No, the height difference is done by as they appear. And even failing that, the OS is not canon. Anakin is much shorter than Vader. Guess he's a clone. [face_plain]

    13. Which means that he doesn't give a flying rat's behind about it. He's telling his story first. It's up to the authors of the future RPG's to change accordingly.

    14. They have better access, but that doesn't mean anything. The future is always in motion. Any and all time travel stories tell you that the future changes. "The future is not set, there is no fate but for what we make for ourselves." Doesn't matter if you are Sidious or Yoda, it's constantly changing.

    16. He just puts it on and that's it. For all of transmissions, he does that. Around others, that's how he feels comfortable. Not to mention, it's still a surprise for those who haven't figured it out. And yes, there are those who haven't figured it out. As to the second part of your question, it's called a plot point or better, cliffhanger. It's the revelation in episode 3, like with the OT. For those who don't get it, are left to wonder about it until the next film. Same as with Vader, we were left to wonder if it's true.

    GARTH: I told you earlier, that the meeting was at dawn. The script for AOTC says as much. No one is going to question him as he'd get up and leave with the Crimson Guard in a speeder.

    It doesn't matter. They know him as Sidious because that's his Sith name. "That name no longer has any meaning for me." Vader refers to himself as Darth Vader and has no reason to use his old name. Sidious/Palpatine has to use his real name when he's a Senator/Supreme Chancellor. Notice that as soon as Dooku comes home, he calls him Lord Tyranus. It's a Sith thing. I compare that to Batman. His motto is that once in costume, he perfers to be addressed as Batman and not Bruce Wayne. Same here. He perfers to use the Sith name, over the real one when he's as the Sith Lord.

    Yoda can't sense the Sith because the balance in the Force is weakening. Read this which has the second draft of ANH. It'll explain what the balance to the Force is all about. The Jedi have defeated themselves. They've grown weak and arrogant and in doing so have damned themselves. Most of the Jedi are wiped out in the Clone Wars, the rest in the Purge that follows. Their efforts to overthrow him, lead to their destruction. They die for their ideals.

    Yoda isn't lying, it is not stronger as Luke and Obi-wan proved. Even Anakin himself proved that it's not strong, as he was able to turn away from it. Right now the Jedi are weak and thus the dark side is growing, but it is still not stronger than the light side.

    In the TPM novel, it does not say Sidious is on Courscant. It says he's standing out on the bacolny, looking out at the city. Courscant is never written by Brooks.
  24. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    2. The Palpatine persoality slowly built up his political base, like real life politcians do. They make connections, offer deals and the like. Greases a lot of palms and feeds off of their egos.

    Of course. But who's going to go along with Palpatine's plans if he's just a small fry from Naboo at the time? If nothing else, they'd have been contacted by Sidious or his Sidious persona. But Palpy, no one with power would've believed he had any power of value to them, not to mention, that'd leave him wide open for blackmailing and everything else, as a politician. He's not likely to take such chances with his political persona that stands to win him the position he covets - Emperor. If he's had any dark deals, he did them as Sidious or as his Sidious persona, not as Palpatine. Palpy looks as pure as driven snow.

    3. Vader wasn't Force blocking Luke. Be serious. Palpatine/Sidious did become over confident and arrogant, and that's why he couldn't feel Luke.

    Well I suppose you could look at it that way.

    here it's shifting back and the consquence is that the Sith are growing weaker.

    That makes sense.

    4. You can't even see that his eyes are yellow in ESB. You see that his eyes are funky looking, but not yellow.

    This isn't a legitimate argument on this subject. Try again.

    7. Where is it said that Yoda knows the Sith are on Courscant?

    Think he meant the dark side had grown strong on Tatooine? ;) If he meant the dark side had just grown strong, period, this also brings up the issue of how'd he know it had grown strong if he can't sense it in the same room with him?

    "It's obvious if you think about it hard enough." Doesn't sound like he's got a plan up his sleeve regarding it.

    I won't be devestated if Palpatine is Sidious, but I certainly won't like the hatchet job it does on the jedi as a group. It'll look totally silly.

    No, the height difference is done by as they appear. And even failing that, the OS is not canon. Anakin is much shorter than Vader. Guess he's a clone.

    There's a standard for measuring things. This does not change unless the person changes -- et. al, Vader's exoskeleton changing from bone to metal might be an example. I hadn't read they were different heights though. Where'd you see this? I'd like to read it.

    13. Which means that he doesn't give a flying rat's behind about it. He's telling his story first. It's up to the authors of the future RPG's to change accordingly.

    If it's his universe, he can certainly exercise the authority to change it however he wants, but why would he want to change something that pivotal that it'd make mincemeat out of one of his major forces in his stories? Especially, one of the major good forces in his stories? I can understand that he must bring them to the brink of destruction in order to finally tie the PT to the OT, but why have them not only die enmasse due to an evil plot and their lack of attention, but also die looking like totally weak buffoons? It'll be a circus performance. Death by stupidity. A fitting end to the heroes of the story? Eerrr, no.

    14. They have better access, but that doesn't mean anything. The future is always in motion. Any and all time travel stories tell you that the future changes. "The future is not set, there is no fate but for what we make for ourselves." Doesn't matter if you are Sidious or Yoda, it's constantly changing.

    I will agree to this, but it doesn't lend any credence to the idea that Sidious is so powerful, he can hide under Yoda's nose. Heck, even I have enough intuition to sense when someone's giving off negative vibes -- even when they try to hide it. I can tell when someone's staring at me or checking me out, without having to look them in the eye. ETC. And I'm certainly not a 900 year old jedi master. lol Yoda deserves better than this!

    16. He just puts it on and that's it. For all of transmissions, he does that.

    Yes, I'm aware of this. lol

    Around others, that's how he feel
  25. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    2. The Palpatine persoality slowly built up his political base, like real life politcians do. They make connections, offer deals and the like. Greases a lot of palms and feeds off of their egos.

    Of course. But who's going to go along with Palpatine's plans if he's just a small fry from Naboo at the time? If nothing else, they'd have been contacted by Sidious or his Sidious persona. But Palpy, no one with power would've believed he had any power of value to them, not to mention, that'd leave him wide open for blackmailing and everything else, as a politician. He's not likely to take such chances with his political persona that stands to win him the position he covets - Emperor. If he's had any dark deals, he did them as Sidious or as his Sidious persona, not as Palpatine. Palpy looks as pure as driven snow.

    3. Vader wasn't Force blocking Luke. Be serious. Palpatine/Sidious did become over confident and arrogant, and that's why he couldn't feel Luke.

    Well I suppose you could look at it that way.

    here it's shifting back and the consquence is that the Sith are growing weaker.

    That makes sense.

    4. You can't even see that his eyes are yellow in ESB. You see that his eyes are funky looking, but not yellow.

    This isn't a legitimate argument on this subject. Try again.

    7. Where is it said that Yoda knows the Sith are on Courscant?

    Think he meant the dark side had grown strong on Tatooine? ;) If he meant the dark side had just grown strong, period, this also brings up the issue of how'd he know it had grown strong if he can't sense it in the same room with him?

    "It's obvious if you think about it hard enough." Doesn't sound like he's got a plan up his sleeve regarding it.

    I won't be devestated if Palpatine is Sidious, but I certainly won't like the hatchet job it does on the jedi as a group. It'll look totally silly.

    No, the height difference is done by as they appear. And even failing that, the OS is not canon. Anakin is much shorter than Vader. Guess he's a clone.

    There's a standard for measuring things. This does not change unless the person changes -- et. al, Vader's exoskeleton changing from bone to metal might be an example. I hadn't read they were different heights though. Where'd you see this? I'd like to read it.

    13. Which means that he doesn't give a flying rat's behind about it. He's telling his story first. It's up to the authors of the future RPG's to change accordingly.

    If it's his universe, he can certainly exercise the authority to change it however he wants, but why would he want to change something that pivotal that it'd make mincemeat out of one of his major forces in his stories? Especially, one of the major good forces in his stories? I can understand that he must bring them to the brink of destruction in order to finally tie the PT to the OT, but why have them not only die enmasse due to an evil plot and their lack of attention, but also die looking like totally weak buffoons? It'll be a circus performance. Death by stupidity. A fitting end to the heroes of the story? Eerrr, no.

    14. They have better access, but that doesn't mean anything. The future is always in motion. Any and all time travel stories tell you that the future changes. "The future is not set, there is no fate but for what we make for ourselves." Doesn't matter if you are Sidious or Yoda, it's constantly changing.

    I will agree to this, but it doesn't lend any credence to the idea that Sidious is so powerful, he can hide under Yoda's nose. Heck, even I have enough intuition to sense when someone's giving off negative vibes -- even when they try to hide it. I can tell when someone's staring at me or checking me out, without having to look them in the eye. ETC. And I'm certainly not a 900 year old jedi master. lol Yoda deserves better than this!

    16. He just puts it on and that's it. For all of transmissions, he does that.

    Yes, I'm aware of this. lol

    Around others, that's how he feel
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