PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jedi-Wanna-be, May 12, 2002.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    2. He was Sidious when he recruited the members of the CIS. When looking at the members of the Senate, he spoke with great chrisma. His speeches and ideals were enough to sway many into backing him. He made promises that would work. "I'll scratch your back, if you scratch mine." His knowledge of what they'd want, what they fear, what they desire most is like an open book to him. Make them an offer they can't refuse and victory is his. And for those who don't follow along, they're plenty of others willing to do so. And when that's not enough, use fear.

    4. I was correcting you on the eye color issue of the hologram.

    7. Yoda could feel Anakin on Tatooine because of his power allows him to stand out through the shroud of the dark side. Anakin isn't trying to hide in the Force like the Sith are. That's the major difference between the two of them. Lucas has said that he has something in store for episode 3, that he knows not everyone is going to like. This might be it.

    Read the Geroge Lucas pronouncements about the ideals of good and evil in the PT. It'll cover what you're thinking.

    Read the heights for Vader and Anakin. David Prowse was much taller than Hayden Christensen. (and no I can't spell.)

    13. The Jedi have allowed themselves to become weak and arrogant. The Force is out of balance and the Jedi have become blind to the powers that are in control. They don't suspect Palpatine because they can't feel him in the Force. There's no reason to suspect someone whose intentions are honorable. Again, read what Lucas has said in the pronouncements.

    14. Yoda does suspect something, but he can't pinpoint it. Palpatine is such a good actor, that it's hard to buy that he isn't sincere in what he says or does. That's why Dooku said what he did to Obi-wan. To sow more confusion and set them up for a fall. It is not that Sidious is stronger than Yoda, it's that Yoda is weaker than he was before. Again it's the balance of the Force being out of alignment. Coupled with his own arrogance in not believing Dooku's claims outright, chalking it up to lies and deceit.

    16. There are most likely more than two people that haven't figured it out. In a world where people thought Anakin Skywalker in TPM was Luke, it's a sign that people aren't that bright. And in a world where Lucas has to answer something that's so blatenly obvious, it shows that people aren't bright. It's all a visual thing. Sidious is the Phantom Meance and as such, Lucas is making him look like it. The unseen enemy that the Jedi are looking for.

    It's all a story standpoint.
  2. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Only in the twisted logic of a JC argument could the fact that something is obvious be used to "prove" that it's not true.

    I found a great quote posted by Azael back in May that pretty much debunks the "too obvious argument":

    "Obvious to who? The hardcore fans that have read everything with the Star Wars name stamped on it? Or to the newcomers or the people who saw the original trilogy and was satisfied with that. The Emperor is not mentioned by name anywhere in the OT, so unless you have read other sources you wouldn't even know that he was Emperor Palpatine. I've seen the prequels with several friends that are (or at least were) blissfully ignorant of all such things and they all said that there was something fishy about senator Palpatine, but didn't make the connection Palpatine=Sidious. Those people would be surprised. Besides, the prequels aren't really about surprising us, they are about providing us with background material for the OT. To see how Anakin falls and how Palpatine turns the Republic into an Empire."

    What does "too obvious" mean? Is it "too obvious" that Anakin is Vader? Is it "too obvious" that Padme and Anakin are going to have Luke and Leia?

    Actually, that gives me an idea. "Anakin IS NOT Vader." Think about it. It's too obvious, since George keeps on telling us. All the characters in the OT are speaking from a "certain point of view" when they say that Anakin is Vader. So, what does that leave us? I got it! Vader is a CLONE of Anakin! It makes perfect sense, and we know that George wants to surprise us!

    There was a post a while back challenging people to prove that Obi-Wan is a man. If someone can find that, it would be interesting to see if anyone can prove that Obi-Wan is, in fact, a man. Remember, you can not use proof that involves who the actor is, quotes by George or anyone else, or movie lines (remember, "certain point of view"! ;) )

    I still haven't figured out what this "Palpatine is a clone" idea is supposed to add to the story, other than to be kewl. Does it strengthen the character of Palpatine? No, he's just a pawn, not the master manipulator. Does it strengthen the character of Sidious? No, he's so piss-poor a Sith that he can't even become Emperor on his own, and instead has to use a clone. Does it strengthen the characters of the Jedi? No, because even though Palpatine is supposedly not a Sith, they should still be able to detect that he's being used by the Sith. If you want an example of this sort of detection, Obi-Wan could detect that the Trade Federation was being used by the Sith in the beginning of TPM.

    And nobody has explained exactly why Lucas, McCallum, Hales, MacDiarmid (sp?) and all the rest would lie to the fans like this. It serves no purpose, and in the end only serves to destroy their own credibility.
  3. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    2. He was Sidious when he recruited the members of the CIS. When looking at the members of the Senate, he spoke with great chrisma. His speeches and ideals were enough to sway many into backing him. He made promises that would work. "I'll scratch your back, if you scratch mine." His knowledge of what they'd want, what they fear, what they desire most is like an open book to him. Make them an offer they can't refuse and victory is his. And for those who don't follow along, they're plenty of others willing to do so. And when that's not enough, use fear.

    Eer, this is just belaboring the obvious. It's no secret that Palpatine has charisma. The original statement that you were responding to was more of a "think about it" statement than anything else, and I quote:

    Now Dooku knew about Sidious back when he was training Qui-Gon which predates TPM! This means that Sidious was still controlling the senate while Qui-Gon was still in training. What was much younger Palpatine doing then?

    This quote, along with all the others in the original post of mine that you were responding to, came from several different fans on this thread. That particular quote was not one of my ideas. I imagine the original author of it, knew what he meant at the time, but frankly, it just sounds to me as if he wanted to make people think about how Palpatine could be arranging for Dooku to turn Sith, and yet be on Naboo at the same time.

    4. I was correcting you on the eye color issue of the hologram.

    Yes, I'm aware of this but the argument was very weak. In the holographic image of Sidious in ESB, his eyes glow. They are not normal blue, non-glowing eyes like Palpatine's eyes from TPM and AOTC, they are glowing, just as they do in ROTJ. That's the point of the "eyes" argument.

    7. Yoda could feel Anakin on Tatooine because of his power allows him to stand out through the shroud of the dark side.

    No, no, you misunderstood. I was being facetious. The real question is: If Yoda knows the dark side has grown stronger, where does he think it's growing stronger at? Tatooine? No. Coruscant? Certainly or he wouldn't be able to feel it, UNLESS, he means that generally-speaking, he can feel the dark side growing stronger everywhere. In which case, if he can feel it growing stronger, why can't he feel it in the same room with him?

    Read the heights for Vader and Anakin. David Prowse was much taller than Hayden Christensen. (and no I can't spell.)

    Alrighty. Anyway, Vader is taller than Anakin because Vader is reconstructed to be taller, I imagine. BTW, which one is taller, Palp or Sidious? (Also, I made a mistake on the exoskeleton thing.)

    The Force is out of balance and the Jedi have become blind to the powers that are in control. They don't suspect Palpatine because they can't feel him in the Force.

    But when they first met Palpatine, they couldn't feel anything then either.

    There's no reason to suspect someone whose intentions are honorable.

    If Palpatine is Sidious, then his intentions aren't honorable.

    14. Yoda does suspect something, but he can't pinpoint it. Palpatine is such a good actor, that it's hard to buy that he isn't sincere in what he says or does.

    I must be very cynical because it'd take alot more than good acting to convince me to trust someone in Palpatine's position. I'd be suspecting him and Padme the minute his planet became embroiled in controversy. And when he was granted emergency powers, I'd have him on a leash so short, he'd never be able to do the Sidious thing. Presto, chango, not on my shift buddy.

    It is not that Sidious is stronger than Yoda, it's that Yoda is weaker than he was before.

    How much weaker are we talking here? Cause he won't only look weaker but dense if Palp is Sidious.

    Coupled with his own arrogance in not believing Dooku's claims outright, chalking it up to lies and deceit.

    That would not be described as arrogance. It would be described as not believing a sith th
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    2. Well, there you go then. Evidence in the films and elsewhere doesn't support that.

    4. I'm not using that as an arguement with his eyes in ESB. I was correcting you in that they weren't yellow as the hologram was blue.

    7. He can feel it growing in general, but he can't locate it in a person. Balance has been going out of whack for the last thousand years. This is how the Sith have managed to stay hidden for all that time and not be discovered. They aren't going to suspect him. We do as the audience, but the Jedi don't cause he's snowing them. It isn't until they learn otherwise, that they realize the truth.

    14. The Jedi don't have that kind of power. They have no reason to suspect him, because they believe they could detect the Sith Lord. They are one step behind.

    He's weak in that he can't detect the dark side in one man. Dense has nothing to do with it. Stop thinking as a viewer and as a Jedi at the moment. Nothing that's happened over the last 10 years makes sense. They are guardians of peace, not police officers.

    It's arrogance because he doesn't think that he could be telling the truth, regardless of is alliegence.
  5. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    2. Well, there you go then. Evidence in the films and elsewhere doesn't support that.

    Sure it does. How else would Dooku have turned Sith? Who converted him if not Sidious? And if Sidious is Palpatine, he must be the busiest person in the galaxy! When does the guy have time to be a politician? Furthermore, how does he accomplish all the things he does, when he's a public figure? He is not only a politician on Naboo at that point, but he's trying to manipulate the affairs of the universe to get himself into the best possible position in the senate? He's manipulating the Trade Federation and the Separatists and the political body on Naboo, Padme and Padme's court? Meanwhile, he's also flying back and forth between Naboo and Coruscant and whatever planet he found Maul on, so he can seduce and train both Dooku and Maul [at different times, but while also doing all that other stuff], then he begins manipulating them as well. Next he puts Anakin in his sights and while doing all that other stuff, he's also manipulating Anakin towards the dark side. How's one guy doing all that? And how's he doing it without getting caught? No one suspecting a thing?

    14. The Jedi don't have that kind of power. They have no reason to suspect him, because they believe they could detect the Sith Lord. They are one step behind.

    That's another thing that doesn't make sense. If the Sith had been silent for the previous 1000 years, then how would anyone there (even Yoda's not that old) have any idea if they could or couldn't sense a Sith lord? How does one locate what one has never seen or felt before? I remember Obi's words in TPM: "What was it?" (Speaking of Maul.) lol And Qui-Gon's reaction, "I'm not sure, but whatever it was, it was well-trained in the jedi arts."

    It's arrogance because he doesn't think that he could be telling the truth, regardless of is alliegence.

    Dooku is a jedi turned sith. Yoda knows that. He's not going to trust anything the guy says, just like he doesn't trust Vader later on. I agree that he should've thought about it more before deciding, but I don't blame him for thinking Dooku is lying, especially since Dooku strung up Obi-Wan and interrogated, intimidated and tried to seduce him to the dark side.

    Anyway, plot holes abound. And the believability factor keeps going down, down, down. When all the jedi die because they can't sense a sith in the same room with them, I'm just gonna smile and keep telling myself "fairy tale", remember this is a "fairy tale." Fairy tales don't have to make sense. :D



  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    2. Dooku was already wanting to learn about the dark side. Using the backstory presented in the visual directory, he was always interested in the dark side teachings. After the events of Naboo, Dooku sought Nute out to learn about the Sith's return. After that, he put two and two together and found out who Sidious was. Sidious saw the potential in him and made the deal to have Dooku replace Maul as his Apprentice.

    His Senatorial duties were handled during the daylight hours, while at night he trained Maul. In between Senate sessions, he made contact with the members of the CIS in the years leading to Naboo. This is how he forged his conglmorate (sp) of followers. With Dooku, very little training was needed. All that was needed was to show him how to hide from the Jedi, use Sith Lightning and access the dark emotions without restraint. Maul as far as we know, was trained on Courscant.

    He had only occassional meetings with Anakin over the 10 year interim, thus manipulating he did was during those few times.

    14. He didn't know what Maul was. Here is a guy using the Force, but he can't feel the Force in him. He snuck up behind him and he didn't even know until Anakin yelled at him to stop. He couldn't pick up anything from him and that was disturbing. He realized that he had to be a Sith, since a Jedi would never attack another Jedi. Much less have Force training.

    The Jedi of today knew from the teachings of those from before, that the Sith could be detected. Just like anyone else who uses the Force, they could be felt. This is how Darth Bane survived. "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith, knows of our weakness."
  7. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    2. Dooku was already wanting to learn about the dark side. Using the backstory presented in the visual directory, he was always interested in the dark side teachings. After the events of Naboo, Dooku sought Nute out to learn about the Sith's return. After that, he put two and two together and found out who Sidious was. Sidious saw the potential in him and made the deal to have Dooku replace Maul as his Apprentice.

    So he came to Coruscant? Okay, fine. Let's see what he has left on his platter:

    Dooku shows up and he begins training him.

    Meanwhile, he's also working on Anakin every-so-often,

    and running his affairs in Congress everyday as Senator Palpatine,

    while manipulating the Trade Federation

    and the Separatists,

    and the Jedi and Padme.

    And of course, manipulating the Senate.

    Inbetween, flying back and forth between his chambers at the Senate to his secret hideaway on Coruscant, where he clandestinely meets Dooku and makes further plans, such as,

    plotting the destruction of the Jedi,

    how to become emperor in six easy lessons,

    how to interpret and properly employ his future visions (and make the necessary adjustments to those aspects that are flubbed up by padme and company),

    Does the man sleep?

    Now keep in mind, he's a high profile figure as Palpatine. People would miss him if he wasn't there. If he left at night, folks would ask questions. The jedi would grow concerned about his safety as a high profile member of the senate with a history of trouble. If someone tried to contact him in his chambers and he wasn't there, they'd ask questions. And if it happened frequently, everyone would ask questions.
    When someone tried to assassinate Padme, they would automatically have a guard on Palpatine - to protect him. AND ESPECIALLY, when he is granted Emergency Powers during a time of war. (See, it's only a fairy tale, after all) Of course, a few minutes later, we see Mr. Emergency Powers, sauntering up to meet Dooku in his secret hideaway. ... during the middle of a war that just started...and he's a high profile politician who's in charge of everything and has emergency powers granted to him, but he's not at the senate, nooo, he's in his secret hideaway making plans with Dooku. And noone is the wiser.

    Okee. :D



  8. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Dooku shows up and he begins training him.

    Meanwhile, he's also working on Anakin every-so-often,

    and running his affairs in Congress everyday as Senator Palpatine,

    while manipulating the Trade Federation

    and the Separatists,

    and the Jedi and Padme.

    And of course, manipulating the Senate.

    Inbetween, flying back and forth between his chambers at the Senate to his secret hideaway on Coruscant, where he clandestinely meets Dooku and makes further plans, such as, plotting the destruction of the Jedi, how to become emperor in six easy lessons, how to interpret and properly employ his future visions (and make the necessary adjustments to those aspects that are flubbed up by padme and company)


    It's all in how you present the data. The way you say it, listing every little thing, makes it sound like he's got a bunch on his platter. But once you realize the follow things:
    manipulating the Senate, Padme, and the Jedi are all part of the same thing, which you describe as "running his affairs in Congress everyday as Senator Palpatine" (incidentally, this should be Supreme Chancellor Palpatine)
    Dooku is already a Jedi, and as such he needs minimal training, only on the basic Dark Side stuff
    Dooku is taking care of the TF and the Separatists
    Tricking Anakin requires about 10 minutes a month. Anakin isn't in Coruscant all the time, and as seen in AOTC ti doesn't take that long a conversation to feed his ego.
    Palpatine doesn't need to be in his hideaway to make plans. He could be dreaming up his Sith plans while having his little chat at the beginning of AOTC. As for communicating with Dooku, they have these little things called holograms and comlinks where you can talk to people far away (incidentally, they also have these things in the real world called telephones that do the same thing)

    So in the end, your supposedly huge list narrows down to these three things that Palpatine has to do:
    Give Dooku minimal training.
    Run his affairs everyday as Chancellor.
    Talk to Dooku occasionally on the comlink to keep him briefed.

    In fact, Dooku only needs to be trained for a short period. Long before AOTC, he has become a full-fledged Sith, and Palptine's supposedly busy schedule only consists of two things. And you're telling me that he can't do these things in one day.

    Okee. :D
  9. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Yep, that's what I'm telling you. :D

    You left out manipulating the Trade Federation and the Separatists. Dooku didn't think this stuff up on his own. He's following Sidious' orders.

    Also, you glossed over the fact he'd be watched closely, for his own safety, as a senator (and a chancellor) You also glossed over the fact
    he's been granted emergency powers. They'd know where he was at all times -- for his own safety.

    It truly is a fairy tale, Lord H

  10. smauldookie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2002
    star 5
    "Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)"

    GL better not do it. :mad:
  11. BLUEJEDI3 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2002
    star 3
    Well until this week i agreed with this topic.

    But now that Lucas said that Palps used a mind trick on Jar Jar in the new DVD THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING. Palps is a force user so this means he is Sidious. The most we might see is a body double for Palps so he can get away to be Sidious. This debate is over now. And i'm kind of sorry it is, i wish Lucas never told us this.
  12. Tiu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2002
    It was fun while it lasted, But was always doomed to come to an end...

    *tear slides down cheek*

    ;)
  13. smauldookie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2002
    star 5
  14. Darth_Sprocket Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2002
    star 4
    Palpatine is Sidious........Sidious is Palatine.....the most casual observer knows this......this thread should be closed now.....move along.....nothing to see here.....move along..........
  15. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Eh, I'll believe it when I see it. lol I mean, what choice do I have? It's either hope for the best, or realize the show will be not only the saddest Star Wars movie ever, but we'll get to watch the jedi go down the tubes because Palpatine/Sidious is actually Superman in disguise and the jedi, well to quote a Star Trek episode: "They are about as far removed from [Sidious] on the evolutionary scale as we are from amoebas." ;)

    "I AM from Planet Krypton!"
    "Fear-ear me, feear-ear me!"
    "I do things, no one else can!"
    "Fear-ear me, fear-ear me!"

    Doh. :D And you were wondering where Sidious was from! Now you know!


    [Edit: Super Sidious. heh heh heh]
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Dooku isn't an idiot, he can do these things without always consulting Sidious/Palpatine. He'd only have to consult with Sidious/Palpatine if there's something that he is unsure of or for new orders. That's it. Remember Vader? He didn't always need to talk to him in ESB and ANH. He handled things on his own and only need to consult him when needed.

    Palpatine does have his guards, the Crimson Guard who are loyal to him. There's a reason why he has them, over the blue Senatoral guards. Vallorum had them with him in TPM, but when AOTC begins we see the Crimson Guard at attention. Plus, did it ever occur to you that he'd have a private elevator in his office? He'd use that to come and go, if need be. Regardless, he spoke with Dooku at dawn. That means as the world is waking up, he was already up and left the Imperial Palace to meet with Dooku.
  17. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Excellent quote, Undomiel.

    Here's another one: "Let's get the hell out of here.":)

    Did Palps use a mind trick on Jar-Jar? What I witnessed was Mad Amedda and Palpatine simply playing off of Jar-Jar's simple-mindedness.

    I really didn't see that in that scene at ALL. If that's what Lucas was trying to convey...maybe it was just too subtle for me.;)

    -dust
  18. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Sinister:

    Ohhh, I get it. He stopped by his secret hideaway on the way to work! That explains it. ;) Whew, I was worried. hehe I am only teasing you! I just think it's silly, contrived, too convenient for the bad guys but that's okay because IT'S ONLY A FAIRY TALE.

    Garth:

    Perhaps you're right. :D

    [Edit: Or as Han Solo said, "Yeah, I think you're right." Or as Spock said, "Yes, perhaps you're right. What is his [Scotty] condition?" *Vulcan grip* "Sorry, doctor. I don't have time to explain. Remember." ;)]
  19. MikeSolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2002
    star 4
    "In the TPM novel, it does not say Sidious is on Courscant. It says he's standing out on the bacolny, looking out at the city. Courscant is never written by Brooks."

    Yea I know Courscant is not written but Brooks never says that he is on Naboo either....So Sidious could be anywhere in the Star Wars Galaxy.

    That night Darth Sidious stood alone on a balcony overlooking a city, a shadowy figure amid the mutlitude of lights.
    I might of read that wrong but when Brooks mentions a mulitude of lights, I was thinking Courscant and not Naboo. I still think they are the same person but the book just made me question that they might not be the same person.
  20. Tricky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    You should have read the script Mike Solo.

    Here's some of it.

    EXT. CORUSCANT - BALCONY OVERLOOKING CITY - NIGHT

    DARTH SIDIOUS and DARTH MAUL look out over the vast city.

    DARTH MAUL
    Tatooine is sparsely populated. If
    the trace was correct, I will find
    them quickly, Master.

    DARTH SIDIOUS
    Move against the Jedi first... you
    will then have no difficulty taking
    the Queen back to Naboo, where she
    will sign the treaty.

    DARTH MAUL
    At last we will reveal ourselves to
    the Jedi. At last we will have
    revenge.

    DARTH SIDIOUS
    You have been well trained, my young
    apprentice, they will be no match
    for you. It is too late for them to
    stop us now. Everything is going as
    planned. The Republic will soon be
    in my command.

  21. MikeSolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2002
    star 4
    Ok my bad I should of wrote a little more.
    The part I was talking about is happening at the same time Qui Gon's funeral is going on...here is the part I left out:

    " That night Darth Sidious stood alone on a balcony overlooking the city, a shadowy figure amid the multiude of twinkling lights, his visage dark and angry as he contemplated the lost of his apprentice" aka Darth Maul.
  22. Spike2002 Former FF-UK RSA and Arena Manager

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2002
    star 6
    You know, after very sadly reading through all 79 pages of this topic, I am still yet to see proof that Palpatine is not Sidious. All I see is speculation and coincidence.
  23. AnakinSlave Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2002
    star 3
    Palpatine = Sidious.
    Sidious = Palpatine.
    It's not brain surgery people.
  24. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Mike Solo,

    Oh man, too bad it doesn't say Palpatine was attending Qui-Gonn's funeral at that exact moment or are you certain it was during QG's funeral that Sidious was on his balcony?
  25. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Mike Solo,

    Oh man, too bad it doesn't say Palpatine was attending Qui-Gonn's funeral at that exact moment or are you certain it was during QG's funeral that Sidious was on his balcony?
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