PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jedi-Wanna-be, May 12, 2002.

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  1. Darth_Joe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 2
    We would get somewhere if all you nonbelievers would accept the obvious and realize that it's too obvious for them to be the same person. GL has some sort of plot twist coming in EIII.
  2. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    What has mainly been an intelligent debate, is degenerating into trolling and flaming.

    I would ask those of you who feel the need to act immaturely, go find another thread to do it in.

    Many of you, I respect, even though we disagree. Some of you, are not impressing anyone with your personal attacks and blanket statements. You all know which one you are.

    I am still confident that Sidious and Palpatine are separate individuals. Both are Palpatine; only 1 is Sidious.

    However, I am not close-minded. I can forsee the possibility that George will reconcile the plot discrepancies. He would have a lot of loose ends to tie up and some back-tracking to do; but it is possible.

    And I still stick by my gut feeling that Yoda would know a Sith Lord face-to-face. GL is going to have to explain that one away quite explicitly; or I will simply lose a great deal of respect for the integrity of the story.

    So then, let us disagree in a civilized and reasonable manner. It is through discussions such as these that we are ALL enlightened, and grow intellectually.

    Whether or not we agree is secondary; the primary goal is to broaden our minds by exploring the possibilities, and letting our imagination soar.

    Just remember, wherever your imagination may take you, be home in time for dinner. ;)
  3. Converter_of_Power Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 3
    This thread is three years old. I was honestly discussing this topic in an AOL chat room after my 2nd screening of TPM . . . zzzz . . . zzzz . . .
  4. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    All I ask is that you go here:

    link to the official Star Wars site to finally answer all questions about whether sidious is palpatine

    Once you are there, if an interview with McDiarmid doesn't pop up, type "McDiarmid" into the search engine of the site. You should get a long interview with McDiarmid where he tells you that Sidious is Palpatine.

    Is that fair? OK? For all the Satan buffs out there, he also mentions Satan and how Palpatine is different. There is even a discussion of why Palpatine is shown with Anakin at the end of TPM.

    I hope this ends the discussion.
    ;)
  5. Yoda-Jedi-Master Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    "Be Mindful of the Future but not at the expense of the present moment" For now Palps is Sidious. Forget all of the other movies, ...except it For now..... Watch these with a fresh mind as if the others never existed. Maybe that can clear your mind to see the truth. Jedi wannabe be is wrong but he is much closer than all of you who are badgering him. He is using the force to find the truth, whereas the many of you are using your eyes only. Think a little deeper, dont be so shallow in your thoughts........
  6. Darth_Joe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 2
    I'm sorry darth_poor, but I'm not seein it. It doesn't give the answer either. It only brings more mystery into the debate.
  7. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Joe,

    Please take the time to read it. Please :_| :_| Please!!!!

    Unless you've taken Granny Smith's Speed Reading course, there is no way that you could have read the proof (Ya Real poof!) that I posted above since the time that I posted it was like one minute ago...

    Man, it took me 10 minutes to read through that thing. I'm either dumb, or you guys are geniuses, or you guys are missing something.

    McDiarmid=the guy who plays Palpatine = the guy who plays Sidious, and he has a lot to say about both!!!


    Don't be cross just to be funny. :mad:
  8. Darth_Joe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 2
    I did read it...the only refererences I saw were to Palpatine...none to Sidious. And all it talks about is how he maneuvered Valorum out of office, and how secretive and deceiving Palpatine is. That doesn't mean that Palpatine is Sidious. They can still be two different people working towards the same goal.
  9. dash101 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 4
    [image=http://www.datecc.de/bilder/woag/bilder/animals/animals12d.gif]
    @#*!(#&!&!@#

    This is soooo frustrating.



    Guys ... Get with it! Palpatine IS Sidious!


    uggh!

    -dash101
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Why is he keeping it a secret? Because that's part of the suspense. The big revelation. How many murder mystery books tell you who killed someone on page 5? Didn't think so. None. It's always late in the final act. It's a mystery for the characters and for those who didn't pick up on it in TPM. Not to mention the newcommers.
  11. Verdi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 1
    Palpatine/Sidious proof?
    More like proof of the poster's (Jedi-Wanna-Be's)hypocrisy:

    "I would ask those of you who feel the need to act immaturely, go find another thread to do it in... Some of you, are not impressing anyone with your personal attacks and blanket statements. You all know which one you are."

    Yeah, YOU! Here are some of his comments from THIS SAME THREAD:

    "And if I am wrong... at least I am willing to exercise my grey matter. Rather than swallowing whole any garbage served up, as you seem so willing to do."

    "Geez, I can't do all your thinking for you every time. Get it right next time."

    "Does that explain it for the 'weak minded' now???

    Looking forward to all your apologies and 'gee, you were right's."


    Is he proving Palpatine is not Sidious? No (otherwise this compelling truth wouldn't result in so much disagreement). Is he proving he's a hypocrite? You be the judge.
  12. Yoda-Jedi-Master Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    Sid - Palp

    There is a fine line between Sid and palp. I will tell you what the truth is since you guys are ready to kill each other. The fine line is this. Palp is Sid but he isnt. Sidious is the incarnate of evil. He obstructs, he possesses, he controls. He is manipulating all to his bidding. Palpatine does not know that his path will lead to this inevitable road but Sidious does. Once Palpatine gains power the evil incarnate posseses his body and becomes himself for he is himself in the spiritual force(his unfortunate ultimate potential). this is how he eludes Yoda. Sidious is the Devil himself so to speak awaiting for his being of creation to do his bidding, achieve his ultimate evil and give him life so as to allow Sidious to engulf the force as a living being(kind of like the ANitchrist). But since his evil is so utterly magnifying and terrible he cannot sustain a human body in this plain of existence without cloning to new bodies hence the situation. But he is the ultimate evil spiritual being awaiting at the door of Palpatine's life force as to become him therefore transforming Palpatine into Sidious in essence. Palpatine just does not know where and how this horrid path will take him but he wont realize it becasue he will become Sidious in the flesh. His lust for power and greed and evil will transform him into the evil incarnate which is sidious who is palpatine. Do we all understand now? This is it guys, it is. Watch and ENjoy it will play out so well in III
    I just hope he changes his mind and Makes 7-8 and 9
  13. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    Okay. This is the last time I'm going to post this.

    Read my signature.

    See what it says?
    Look closer. Now do you see it?

    How can anyone debate this? I don't care if Yoda senses whatever or Palpatine smiles in such and such scene. This is the definitive answer.

    They are the same person! How do I know? George Lucas said so!!!

    And if your only defense against it is "he's a liar" or "he can change his mind", that is the dumbest rebuttal of all time.

    Why not start a thread saying Tarkin is Han's grandfather. I mean, George can change his mind, right? It could possibly be referenced in episode 3. I guess we should all start believing it because it could potentially happen.

    Go ahead and read the signature again.

    Sidious is in ESB!
    "The Emperor demands you to make contact with him." -Piett (Also in ESB)

    Starting to understand now?

    Anakin Skywalker > Darth Vader
    Count Dooku > Darth Tyranus
    Palpatine > Darth Sidious

    Getting clearer?

    Let's read that signature again.

    Hey, we saw Sidious for the first time back in 1980, way before TPM came out. And since there was only one scene in the movie with him in it as a hologram, yet he is referred to as the Emperor, Darth Sidious must be the Emperor (aka Palpatine).

    Sidious = Palpatine

    Let's read the signature again.

    Look at that. It's a quote from Lucas saying so.
  14. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Well, god, tonight seems like a night of flaming, bashing and general absurdity...should I even give it a go?

    *Yes, Pooh, go forth and spread my message*

    *large tongue in cheek lowers itself from the sky monty python style and points at Pooh*

    everyone please open your books...I mean computers to the link I am about to provide ...do so in a new window so that you can follow along with the article:
    here is the article



    OK, I can't post the actual article because we would get in trouble with Fat Lucas... so here we go:

    1. Point number 1. McDiarmid played the emperor in ROTJ...the article goes on to say that that is the reason he was recast as the young Palpatine. (ok so palpatine and the Emperor are somehow related...apparently related but for you all out there, of course they could still be clones...so let's keep reading shall we?...)

    2. McDiarmid then states as an answer to the first question that Palpatine is the most incredible social manipulator of all time and that he likes to obscure everything. McDiarmid states that he is both acting Palpatine to be this way on the screen, but that Palpatine is also actually supposed to by like this according to GL. (so you're thinking: what could this mystery be? that he's a clone...wait...let's keep reading....)

    3. McDiarmid then says the Palpatine is the ultimate hypocrite and that like Iago, he appears to be a goody good until the end. Just like Iago. So basically we are going to find out at the very end that Palpatine is not a goody good...that he's got bad intentions (you follow me...good...now you cloners out there might be listening so listen good: here's what just happened to your argument that there are two guys: if Palpatine is a clone...at least we now know that Palpatine (without force powers or not) is at least evil, a hypocrite, and will be revealed to be much different from goody good in Part III).....fine you all say, but how do we know for sure that sidious doesn't replace palpatine...we still don't know if Palpatine is Sith, right, he could just be an evil politician....OK let's keep reading OK !!!!

    4. Point 4: McDiarmid Mentions that Palpatine has to be even more sincere than a typical schizophrenic. Schizophrenics used to be assumed to have 'dual personalities' (the old diagnosis)...so now we have a hint from McDiarmid that Palpatine has a dual personality of sorts.... (OK...so now the cloners still aren't convinced and the Sith Ghost people start waving at me...see, see he's been inhabited by a sith ghost...well, NO...)let's keep reading shall we:

    5. FINALLY McDiarmid says that PALPATINE (note, not Sidious, but PALPATINE) is more evil than the devil because at least milton's lucifer had redeeming qualities...so now we really know that Palpatine or at least the clone of sidious is just as evil as sidious...but are they one and the same person? Let's keep reading shall we:

    5. Now here comes the tricky part (not really)...While describing Palpatine, McDiarmid says that Palpy is different from Lucifer because at least we know Satan's motives (revenge on humans because they twisted him away from god...according to Milton). But McDiarmid says we don't know Palpy's motives. In fact, McDiarmid is saying the Palpatine has no motives. What kind of character has no motives? Read and learn:

    6. McDiarmid states in the paragraph before the break that Palpatine has no motives ...Palpy is doing something really bad for no motive. Pure evil. VOILA, McDiarmid suddenly talks of the Emperor while he is continuing to talk about Palpatine...and what does he say of the Emperor Palpatine? [because remember McDiarmid's first point that the Palpatine is the Emperor - go back to point #1]...McDiarmid says that the Emperor is "SITH"!!!!!.

    OK anyone who is still having difficulty following McDiarmid's logic listen up: McDiarmid describes that the Sith, Palpatine, has no motives. He just wants to e
  15. MadMc Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 1
    /me puts fingers in his ears and goes "LAlalalalalaLA" :D

    No, really Pooh, thanks for the link, didn't read it before, very interesting and detailed.
    I also appreciate (sp?) the time and energy you put in your analysis and hope you enjoyed writing it as much as I did reading it.
    It's almost convinving.. :D
    What I still don't understand is why Ian is giving it all away for anyone who can hold a mouse the right way up on what is supposed to be a spoiler free site.
    But maybe it's part of Lucas' "Confuse the fans"-strategy :D
    If it really is so simple that Sidious=Palty=Emporer the Jedi deserve to be exterminated for their stupidity.
    So when S/P/E finally pulls back this hood in EP3 (if he does that is), I will yawn and consider it lame as will much others I'm sure. I will accept it, but be a little disappointed and maybe punch Lucas if I ever meet him.
    I still hope we learn how he gained hin Sith Powers and how he decieved the council in EP3 and not from an EU source. :mad:

    Besides I have a new theory how the Ewoks evolved: there was a very embarassing incident involvng Chewbacca, R2D2, a rubber band and a time machine. Let me know if I should go into details about this one.. ;)

    Cheers,
    Mac

    PS. EP2 ROCKS!
    PPS. I love you all (Even Dash)! [face_love]
  16. ObiWanJane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 1999
    star 4
    This is a pointless (and ancient) debate. If these two characters were not one in the same, why would the same actor be cast to play them? Geez.
  17. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    Thanks pooh, that was convincing, intelligent analysis without flaming, a rare thing on these thread.

    So far, the arguement for Sid not Palps is : Yoda would have sense him, it's too obvious and GL HAS to surprise us, some dialog in TPM do not make sense.

    to 1 I say : well, how powerful Yoda is ? Could he not sense correctly the darkside. Remember the Sith were extinct for a damn long time, how do they regognize the darkside ? They can feel fear, anger and other feeling that according to the jedi code leads to the dark side, but to they feel the source of the darkside exactly. In the OT, Yoda damn well recognize the darkside, Luke feels it but doesn't know. An again, it is not like the tree is clouding itself. And why would it be wrong for the jeids to be deceived. An other post shows all the bad decision the concil made. They are pride and won't admit failure. Yoda warns Luke, do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or your father's fate you will suffer. Yoda is careful in his teaching, and he is very cautious about his decisions. Is it because the Jedis were had by a deceiver. I won't had the argument from AOTC, I have stated the more than once and seems to be ignored.Where is the problem with the Jedi being had ? It does not condradict anything establish. You cannot take the OT as argument, since Yoda and ObiWan are much more wiser after their original failure. The power of Yoda as yet to be shown, from the PT point of view. Sure he is stated as the more powerful, but what does that means, and is having Sidious means he is less powerful, or he is just like all the jedis and was had. Yoda is the most cautious in the PT, but the council ultimely takes all the decision.

    Some dialog in TPM do not make sense. The problem is, the dialogs do not make sense for either side, both are free for interpretation to one side or the other. Argument here will accomplish nothing.

    The "it's soo obvious argument". That is weak. It's like in sports saying team A will win because they should lose. First why does it have to be a surprise ? Second is it really a surprise ? Take not a fan but a viewer who has seen the film once, does he suspects ? Some yes other no. And to state Jedi-wanna-be, the current leader of the different team, take the Occaz razor(something like that) The simpliest of 2 explanation is taken as the truth. If it is so obvious, it is simpler than any other explanation, therefore true !

    On the other hand, let's keep an open mind and we'll see in ep3. Enjoy the debate :D
  18. cc2318 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    he he. this board is AWESOME. Either way would totally rock-- and as Obi Wan would say:

    The truth... from a certain point of view.

    So as you can see, there's the truth (Attorney Lionel Hutz shakes his head with glare), and, THE TRUTH! (Att. LH grins and nods his head). It's all in how you interpret a person being the same guy. If you clone Jango, sure they're all Jango-- or ARE THEY???

    But... if the guy wears a hood and all you can see is Ian's chin when he talks... is it REALLY Palps at the same time, or are we just seeing one actor playing 2 characters (see Ahmad Best)???

    all of these arguments makes this so much fun, and has driven me out of hiding for a few days :D

    just in case you missed me-- ha ha.
  19. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    MADMC said: "He's running around in EP1 putting his cloak on and of all the time just to make holocalls? "

    LOL!!!! That one had me in tears. You have to wonder why Palps does go to the trouble of putting on his Sith cloak just to make a phone call to Maul. ha!

    Regardless of where people stand on this issue, it is a little questionable that Palp has so much time to train Maul, who supposedly he had since childhood. Where was he keeping him, in his closet on Naboo? Where was he training him?

    I still think that it would make for a better storyline if in AOTC we 1) saw Sidious early on, even if only briefly and 2) saw Sidious remove the hood and reveal himslef as Palpatine. I am saying this for the 97% of the audience who are not hard-core geeks (myself included) who knew every spoiler and had the script before the film even came out. But, oh well....

    And DASH101- where was this "punch in your face" evidence of Si being Palps in AOTC???
  20. cc2318 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    yes, i laughed out loud too. Palps MUST have the little hooded cloak on or we might accidentally see his face. i think maul should've had more lines... but maybe palps never taught him many words beyond 'revenge'and 'yes, master.'

    in any event, this thread is too much fun to quit.

    Palps=Sidious=Sido Dyas= Jar Jar???

    no... scratch the last one.
  21. Verdi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 1
    Darth_Pooh - great post bro.
  22. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4

    Just for a minute, I thought that mind-wipe mp3 they have on episode-x had done it's job a little to well, and I was back in 1998 again. ;)

    To be fair, there has been some GREAT proofs by some great posters over the years, on the SIDIOUS=PALPATINE question. (In fact, my first post was on that very subject)

    However, due to apathy and stupidity, I really can't remember any of them.

    I suggest attacking the archives of the JC and theforce.net, maybe then you can be satisfied then.


    BUT, I'd just like to say, that there is no reason for DS NOT to be Palps and that there is too much too squeeze into ep3 already, without needing a 20 minute "Bond Villain" monologue about Spaarti cylinders and clones and stuff.

    UKS
  23. cc2318 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    i agree, Lucas left a lot to be explained, and Sidious and Palps not being the same would take more time out of the limit of 2 hours that he has set for all of his films (joke, people, JOKE). Even so... wouldn't palps have shown himself at the end if he was sidious?

    a huge dramatic De-Hooding!

    ha ha
  24. Jedi-Wanna-be Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    OK, darth_pooh, I'd like to thank you for the link to the interview.

    It shows that Palpatine is manipulative and opportunistic. It does not EXPLICITLY state he is or becomes Sidious. The only time the Emperor referred to, is in a separate paragraph on a separate topic.

    Your arguments are persuasive, but not conclusive. I compliment you on the effort.

    And now, about AOTC...

    From what I read on the forum so far, Sidious does not appear in the film, until the end.
    And in the book - by no means is this proof - it seems he and Palpatine are on different parts of the planet. Can anyone explain that one? Does it 'jive' with the film?

    And as many people have pointed out, Why is Sidious seemingly absent from this film? Why does Palpatine not reveal himself to be Sidious?

    I am still unconvinced they are the same person; just as many of you are convinced they are.

    I'd like to remind many of you, my proofs come from the films themselves.

    So far, the only counter-arguments worth mentioning come from Actor's interviews, and as-yet-unconfirmed statements attributed to George Lucas &/or Rick McCallum. If you are going to claim that they explicitly state Palpatine is Sidious, show us where it's said.

    And further, remember, Palpatine CAN BE Sidious, and also not be. If both clones are Palpatine, only 1 needs to be a Sith lord. So GL can say Palpatine is Sidious, and its still possible for a 2nd Palpatine to not be.

    For those of you too young to remember, go back to 1978-80. Look for the interviews with GL. I can't find them explicitly. But read GL's comments about Vader. He said in multiple interviews that Luke's motive in ESB would be for the death of his Father at Vader's hand. Nudge, nudge, Wink, Wink.

    GL has been happy to encourage ppl believing the wrong version of the truth, when it suited his film-making purposes. He encouraged all of us way back in 79-80 to believe Vader had indeed killed Anakin.
    Then WHAMMO!, the shocker at the end of ESB.

    So unlike many of you, I am experienced enough in the SW saga to realize, GL will say whatever is needed in order to keep his film-franchise alive, and the public in suspense.

    Remember, too, he based the idea of SW on the sci-fi adventure serials he saw as a Boy at Saturday Matinees. If any of you have ever seen those films from those days, you would understand how common it was to set up the audience at the end of 1 episode. Then in the next, they'd find out the exact opposite was true. He is not breaking faith with us by changing who Palpatine is; he is merely maintaining the sense of wonder and suspense consistent with his view of what these films are supposed to be.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    When Lucas gave interviews for the OT, he was building suspense. Also, he didn't know if he would go through with Vader being Anakin. He kept hesitating until just before or during post production.

    As to the book and the film, time passage. When Dooku arrives at Courscant is hours before the Jedi/Clone Army return from Genosis. First off, the Jedi have to gather up the dead and the wounded. Yoda would leave orders for the Clones that would most likely stay and deal with the Genosians and CIS members that didn't escape in the fight. In other words, it's not all the same day when Dooku arrives and when the meeting in the Temple occurs.

    Break it down.

    1. Dooku flees Genosis. The Jedi must begin the recovery and clean up.

    2. Hours or a couple days laer, Dooku arrives on Courscant and meets with Palpatine.

    3. Some time after that, the Jedi are back on Courscant. They've spoke to Palpatine and the Senate about what happened. Palps orders the deployment of the Clone Army. This is not seen in the film, but we know it to have happened.

    4. At dusk we see Yoda, Mace and Obi-wan speaking about Dooku. It's probably the first chance they've had to discuss it. Obi-wan is reporting everything that Dooku said to him and what happened during the duel. (implied.) Yoda's last line.

    5. Roughly at that moment, we see members of the Loyalist Commitee seeing the clones off.

    6. Cut to Naboo, where we see the wedding at that moment.

    Now, since Lucas doesn't put a title card saying when and what time something happens, this is why it's easy to assume the Sith meet when Palpatine is watching the army leave.

    One more thing, Palpatine as Sidious wears the hood because that's who he is. It's like Batman. Bruce Wayne is the mask, Batman is who he really is and calls himself in his head. Bruce Wayne died when his parents did. For Palpatine/Sidious, it's the same thing. That's why he wears the hood as Sidious. It's a reflection of who he is. Palpatine is the mask.
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