PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Sinister,

You seem to be the first person to realize this and that is great: PALPATINE IS THE MASK. I tell you why that makes sense:

Like in the OT, we had an "unmasking" of Vader at the end - but we already knew who was under that mask...it was just a question of seeing him. I too wish that Yoda would be more prescient (but who's to say he's not? - i think that for a jedi master who has never felt the force signature of an unknown jedi he hasn't seen before - especially a bad one who is incredible at hiding his true hypocritical mind - Yoda does all he can...look at that stare he gives palpy). I also agree that Sidious should have more understandable screen time in this film...but there are reasons for his "later" demasking:

I don't think the absences in the plot, linking Palp and Sidious together are necessarily a plot device.

I think they are a "dramatic device" (as mentioned by McDiarmid) so that the audience itself can experience what it may be like to believe in Palpatine and his crocodile tears! A kind of 'suspension of disbelief' - as if Lucas is saying: "I know you guys all fear that P is S, and that may be, I'll tell you later, but just listen to P's cajoling, and if you didn't know or expect the worst, wouldn't you be convinced and vote him his powers?!!!" -

That would be an intense dramatic idea that GL is trying with us, and such an idea could only be tried over a series of sequels with character development over several films.

Like McDiarmid said, we all "suspect" him, but the fact that verified knowledge hasn't been provided in the films themselves...that is merely to get us interested and suspending our disbelief so that we can actually bend our ears to Palpatine!
I think it's a brilliant directorial maneouver not to have him offstage as the known evil, like IAGO.

 

Hello everyone,
first I must say this is the best Palp/Sid Thread I've seen so far, the one with the best point on both sides, regards to all of you!

Pooh,
Great point with the Vader knowing/demasking thing, though demasking would automatically meaning killing him. And we didn't know his face before. But regarding the dramatic effect, you're right.
The movies have provided no proofs yet, but strong hints, I think we all agree here.

Sinister,
I like the way you put who's the mask and who's the real thing. It might work.

BTW, I don't think Lucas has even decided yet how he solves this. By the facts he presented and the hints he provided, he can still do whatever he likes without making a mess of the whole thing.
That's the same with other parts of the story like e.g. Shmi's backstory, the midi's etc.
He won't have much time in EP3, so he'll leave much to our imagination.
He IS good, I have to admit that!

cheers & good night,
Mac

 

Well since all the pro-Palpatine clone/twin people simply refer to the dvd quote as an "unconfirmed statment" (it's on the dvd folks) I suppose you'll never buy it. If you can't accept PROVEN FACT you'll probably believe the clone theory even after episode 3 disproves it.

It's pretty bad when Lucas himself tells you how it is, yet you still manage to keep an argument going, even if it means calling him a liar.

If Lucas were to run with this idiotic idea of a clone, it would totally ruin the character of Palpatine and many aspects of Star Wars (for me that is).

Like someone said earlier, to reveal this in episode 3 would be a waste of time and totally unecessary. Revealing that Vader was Anakin was essential and shocking. Doing this clone Palpatine thing would simply be lame and for shock value only. It would add a stupid twist to a great series of films.

Read the signature again, although I suppose many simply don't understand it.

I'm not flaming here. I love my fellow fans. But this argument is crazy.

 

you know.... ur wrong.. hehehe TPM was about him gaining power. He did. It worked.

 

Rogue Trader, you need to carefully read your own quote. It says introducing Darth Sidious in a hologram. I for one truly believe Sidious is the same in all the movies, I just don't believe he is chancellor Palpatine. Yes he is still Darth Sidious in ESB, and ROTJ, he wiped out Palp. and took his identity, after Palp. does what he cannot, get near enough the Jedi to destroy them. Nobody is saying the EMperor from the OT is not Darth Sidious, what we are saying is he is not the same as Palp. in TPM or AOTC. Notice in AOTC how much older and weaker Palp. looks, could this be a clue that he is aging at a faster rate because he is a clone? He was maybe 50ish in TPM, now ten years later he is going on 80? THink about it. Why doesn't your quote simply says, introducing Palp. in a hologram is the same as ESB, then there would be no room for misinterpretation. Why not just say that, GL is sure being fickly about something that is so obvious.

It also could work with EPIII, in that Anakin or Obi-Wan screw up big-time and kill Palp. who has been set up, and then out of the shadows steps Sidious, and of course he would still use the name Palp. in public, Palp. was appointed emperor not Darth Sidious.

So you see your quote does leave some interpretation open, but I do believe Sidious is the same Emperor in ROTJ and ESB, just not that he is the same Palp. as TPM and AOTC.

 

Okay,

You are missing the point. The fact that it is too obvious is a very valid point.
But Sidious may be Palp's long lost brother or twin, not a clone. Sidious has Sith powers and Palp just doesnt. Palp is just plain evil with great aspirations for power. Somehow these two guys X each other out? and the other moves along. They are moving on the same Path and Palp doesnt know Sid even Exists
The Problem is We know the Story. When my Wife Watched TPM she didnt think that Palp was Sid. She said he seemed different. Whereas I was looking for the Zoom on the remote. If we have never seen the movies before what would u think then? That is the answer. Plain and Simple

 

Alright, lets say Palpatine is a clone. If he is force-less and working for Sidious and knows what Sidious is trying to achieve, Yoda and the rest of the Jedi would be able to sense it with relative ease.

If he was a Sith Master, an exact clone of Sidious the rule of 2 (also established by George himself) would be broken because of Darth Maul. Plus, Sidious would never create a clone equal in power to himself.

The only thing that makes sense is that Palpatine is the only Sith Master in the films and is powerful enough to hide in front of the Jedi.

 

Great Point Yoda-Jedi-Master. We're a bunch of hardcore fans. Most of the average movie-goers would be more shocked that they are the same person, rather than different. We know what's going on. Most don't realize it yet.

 

This is a Valid SIMPLE REASONING. Palp-Sid may just be the Most power of all. More powerful than Yoda, more powerful than Vader and m aybe he has the highest count of MC. That would explain alot. He doesnt have the army of Jedi Siths like Yoda has of Jedi's but he may just be that much more powerful than them all in a sense but he cant fight them all himslef. Remember the Sith's are reasserting themsleves and it took them 1000 years to do it. DOnt you think they would create a plan that would deceive the Jedi. Without Deceiving the Jedi the plan can never work. SO Yoda could never be Diminshed, he is not GOd?. Especially with The Serious Force he lays down the AOTC Yoda is the Man...

 

Jedi-Wanna-Be, Yoda_Jedi_Master, and Obi-Wan Harclerode,

I have completely enjoyed having this discussion...but I feel that there are just no more facts to analyze at this point to prove anything to you. The last ten pages have spelled out everything we believe and yet you believe nothing! I'm sorry. I think we should stop this. Really.

Ok, you didn't like the McDiarmid interview, the quote from Lucas about Sidious, or the argument from a drama perspecitve (i.e., that "GL wants us to believe Palpatine and that we just couldn't believe if he showed him to us as Sith to begin with...")

We need to be able to feel the strength of Palpatine's 'insidious' charm in a way that we just would not if we knew the truth for sure. (Although we guess the truth!) Exactly what McDiarmid said: People must believe with Palpatine/Sidious (P/S) his crocodile tears for the Republic, like the madman P/S is who almost believes them himself!

So, let's return to your original post: As a final try. Let's see those arguments:

1. You cannot believe the jedi would be so blind: You list the Dagobah cave and the AOTC conference room sequences as proof that light Jedi should be able to smell the stink of the Big Sith from far away. I agree this is a troubling point because I too want to believe in the perceptions of Yoda. But to answer this we need a different conception of the force and the dark side. Listen to me:

a. The P/S Jedi conference in AOTC: we have shown you several reasons why this 'blindness' could be: This is the saga of the downfall of the jedi. There is an obvious reason why they are swindled and end up where they are in ANH.

b. Still, no one has explained whether YODA is in Palpy's office to get a reading off P/S to see his force energy. Can Yoda do that? Read my argument about the force below.

c. Then, when you think about Dagobah, remember: that the cave may not be strong with the dark side of the force...it may simply be that Luke - like his father - has a particular sensibility to the dark side...his own dark side...hence he sees his own 'half face' in vader's mask there. Luke has a 'waking dream' in the cave.

d. The cave may just be Yoda's 'litmus test' for force users - neither negative or positive, just a test cave. Like everything else on Dagobah is a test! How is this possible? read below:

e. I think that all of our arguments are troubled by the fact that we have NO express information from GL on how the force works.

f. Here is my theory:

I believe that There is no Dark side per se, and there is no light side per se. I think those are symbolic terms. However, every being in the universe has the potential to be good or bad.

If you have force ability (midi-chlorians in your cells or whatever) the ability to channel your energies can turn to the use fo your good or bad side.

Hence, force potentials must be monitiored. Hence the Jedi seem to pick up youngin's when they first are born. Yoda trains everyone to be peaceful. To be good. To use their energies constructively, like compassionate Mahayana Buddhist monks.

But I am sure that troubled people - like Luke or Anakin - are a special problem for yoda because they can "go over to the darkside."

What does that mean? I think it means that they hold a path to the darkside within themselves. A tendency to become a raving, angry, or vengeful people. You can become a tortured soul. It's not the darkside that beckons you, it's you who give into the darkside energies contained within yourself if you don't use restraint. With force power that can be very destructive.

That's my theory. It's neither a new theory or creative, but it helps explain why the Jedi cannot sense P/S in the office or why Luke can feel his own darkside in the cave. How? Please continue reading:

Now imagine the Lord Sith! He is special because he is not a troubled person. He is incredibly self-aware. He is consciously evil - not a troubled soul. He is not vengeful like Lucifer or Maul. He is a cold, calculating killer. And super-intelligent. The w

 

Off subject i was wondering if anyone is from Springfield Mass? If so plz PM me.

 

First of all, I must correct a mis-conception you seem to have.

I personally despise the entire EU. The only exception: Timothy Zahn's trilogy about Ep. 7-8-9. They were officially authorized by Lucas; because he does not intend to make films of those episodes. He furnished Mr. Zahn with relevant info. from his original story, in order to facilitate the making of a coherent sequel to the movies. But even those novels, I take with a grain of salt; and do not give them the same weight as the films themselves.

3. Luke and Vader in ROTJ.

This is a special case, yes. There is a blood relationship between them. They can sense each other, when Luke and the Emperor cannot sense each other. Whatever the reason may be for it, it is unique.

(A side note: It is interesting that the Emperor senses a great disturbance in the Force while Luke is on Dagobah. We have always thought it was Luke he sensed.... What if it was Yoda? Maybe Yoda remained undetected for so long by not using the Force in any grand way, until he began training Luke. Hmm... I wonder...)




1. McDiarmids interview

He speaks at length about his character's flaws and evil ambitions, that is true. He also speaks of a possible Schizophrenic personality in the Senator. If this is true, it would go a long way to explaining why Yoda cannot sense the Dark Side in him. (In TZ's books, Luke does not sense the Dark side in Joruus C'Baoth... but does sense mental imbalance)

ON the basis of the interview, it is plausible that Palpatine could be Sidious, IF he is Schizophrenic, having a truly split personality, where the one persona does not know what the other is doing. It would explain a lot. Not everything, but a lot.

2. The Cave on Dagobah and the Dark Side.

I am afraid I must respectfully reject your interpretation of the Force. It would fail Occam's Razor. It is a theory which requires re-interpreting almost everything said by Yoda and the Force users in all 4 films so far. If you must re-interpret the actions and words of the characters, then the analysis fails to be such, and becomes a replacement plot instead.

My entire argument is based on taking what characters say and do in the films at FACE VALUE. I do not seek to re-interpret what they say and do, to suit personal conjecture.
If Yoda says the cave is strong with the Dark side, it is. If Luke feels it, it's there. If Luke can sense the dark side, as a young padawan, then Yoda the Greatest Living Jedi Master should be able to sense a Sith Lord. (unless he is truly schizophrenic or possessed or something.)

(Side note: I wonder if it was Luke the Emperor sensed in ESB, or Yoda?)

3. Sidious in TPM

IN regards to TPM and Sidious dealing with the Trade Federation: It is true he would not reveal to them he is Palpatine. But there is no reason for him to hide the fact from Maul.

Again, I would like to re-state that I take what is said by Sidious at face value. I will not ascribe hidden meaning that is contrary to the spoken word. If he says he needs the Queen to sign the treaty to both Nute and Maul, then he does. If he does not warn Nute the Queen is coming, then it is because he does not know. To suggest otherwise requires you to play the role of GL in re-writing the characters and the script.

4. AOTC

I have not seen the film yet, and cannot comment authoritatively on any of the characters actions or words. Once I have done so, I will be happy to update my theory, or modify it, or retract it.

But as it stands now, based entirely on the OT & TPM, I think Sidious / Palpatine are separate entities. Either clones, twins, or a truly split persona. (This last possibility I concede to you, Darth Pooh).

Hopefully, we don't have to wait 3 years to find out.

 

I cant believe we are all wasteing time
with something we know for fact

anyways watch Aotc and you will see they are the same

There is couple lines that were said by mace and yoda that proves the darkside is blocking the jedi

Yoda " Blind we are if creation of this clone army we didnt see the "
mace" maybe we should inform the senate that our abilty to use the force is dimished"

yoda" Only the sith lord knows of our weakness if senate inform multiply our enemys will"


What all that says is the darkside is covering everything and that palps can hide the darkside from the jedi as the darkside of the force is now stronger that the light side

 

Y'know something, Lucas & McCallum have said in interviews & on the DVD that Palpatine & Sidious are the same person.

Sooooo, what official person from LFL is pushing this idea that Sidious & Palpatine are clones? Is there anything official at all, in the movies, in the EU, cast & crew interviews, etc. about this clone or twin theory? Or is it just a fan fiction?

C'mon now peoples, post proof, quotes, webpages, anything official at all to prove your clone/twin theory, and maybe the rest of us will try to take you seriously. You are wasting all of our time when you don't. Please, I dare you to.

This is a great thread with one side providing all the proof that's available from LFL, while the other side just wants them to be clones so badly. What gives?

 

It's the same with Rick McCallum's quotes on Qui-Gon Jinn's possible appearance in 'AotC'. McCallum never lied about it, but he didn't exacty tell the truth either

 

I almost wish that Lucas had not included the concept of cloning in the SW saga. It is very interesting, yet it has also become food to spawn a vast amount of junk. Because of the possibility of clones, we get these bad ideas:

1) Palpatine/Sidious is a cloning pair
2) Darth Maul will come back as a clone
3) Anakin dies, then his clone becomes DV
4) Obi-Wan is a clone
5) Padme's decoys are clones
etc....

It's bad enough that the crazy "Naboo becomes Dagobah!", "Padme = Mon Mothma!", "Qui-Gon was a Sith!" & "Mace Windu is secretly working for the dark side!" ideas get put on the forum regularly. Throwing cloning into the mix just makes thing worse.

 

Exactly Tricky!

The best evidence they can come with is that they want them to be clones or that it is "too obvious".

The "too obvious" argument is stupid. It is too obvious that Padme is female, that C3PO is a droid, that Mace Windu is black and that Yoda is a small green alien Jedi Master. Just because it is obvious does not mean it is not true. The argument is just bizarre.

I think there comes a point when people need to accept the truth. That point comes when GL says it is the truth. He has. Case closed.

I really feel sorry for some people - they cannot be enjoying the film as much as they could be because they feel compelled to come up with these bizarre theories that do not fit into the Star Wars 'feel' at all.

re: the novel. At no point does it imply that Palpatine and Sidious are in different places at the same time. Sidious meets with Dooku and then watches the clones load up a few days later.

Darth Vicious Exactly. The only things that are clones are the troopers and Boba Fett. A lot of these people miss the point.

 

Good debate, I am and have always been 100% on the side of them being one in the same. I LOVE the points about the dramatic power of not specifically having Sidious and Palpatine look exactly the same, so that we can see how believable Palpatine could be in his manipulations.

I know midichlorians have caused a lot of groans, but they provide a good anti-clone argument. If they are in every cell of someone's body, then if you used a stem cell of someone and cloned them, there would be the same # of midi's in the clone, so the Palpatine-clone should be just as force sensitive and the Jedi should detect him.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Mitochondria in real cells divide when the stem cells divide. They go wherever the cells go.

 

Here are my conclusions....

If we have never seen these movies it is safe to say , I think That the Guy with the CLoak is the Same as Palp. With that Assumption combined with what Vader says at the end of ESB.
"Combined together Luke u can kill the Emperor and we can rule the galaxy as father and Son".
This means That Vader is not sincere in his Service to the Empeoror(obvious) for his own Power reasons and That Vader who has the highest Midi Chlorian COunt ever recorded, even higher than Yoda, needs Luke, who may have a count as high or higher to kill Sidious
SO The Combined FOrce power of Luke and Vader is needed is Vader's EYes to kill the emproror.
SO with that in Mind it is safe to deduce that the emperor who is obviously more powerful than the most powerful Jedi(Vader) can hide his true intentions from Yoda.
Vader is more powerful than Yoda and the Emperor is more Powerful than Vader.
This would be a task easy for the emperor to conceals himself and his intentions.
There are many people that really beleive the **** they Spew and Palpatine-Sid indeed beleives what he is doing to be RIGHT in his mind or GOOD in his mind, Therefore in SIDS mind he is good for himslef and this is why they cant see it. He does not have feelings of guilt or regrget or sorrow or fear. He is pure evil to the point where he beleives his own bull**** Power hungry ways to be accetable.
This and this alone is the only explanation and that would make Palp=Sid and there are no clones, No Twins, no Brothers. SId is just the most powerful Force user alive at this time.
Yoda does feel the darkside and he does sense it. But he seems to sense it more after the Destruction and his realization of what the Dark Side feels like. In other words it was too late by the time he got the whole picture.
But it wasnt his fault...... He said, "Hard to see the DarkSide is.."
He didnt say dont worry I have everything under control, I am god and I will make sure all is okay, I can se them coming from a light year away.
(Side-Note)- I think Lucas will make 7-8 and 9 years from now when he is bored to death in his ranch.
Yoda does say in the Swamp to Obi-wan's comment "he is our last hope"
Yoda said" no there is one another" Did he mean Vader being the hope to realize his ways and help Luke or another Jedi to come in the future that is the most Powerful of all?
So that is it in a nutshell

 

To come back on what Jedi-wanna-be said...Why Sidious does not tell to Maul he is Palps. Who said Maul doesn't know ?True it was not shown, but was it needed. Sidious like to hang around in his dark cloak, not a thing he could do at the senate

AS for the tree, the tree is strong in the dark side, but unlike Sidious, the tree isn't trying to deceive anyone. Sid on the other hand has too. I like pooh idea, that somewhat he believes in the craps he does.

To come back on the clone/twin/whatever theory, Sidious is a master of manipulation, but it would be kinda of hard to pull the fall of the republic at 2. Remember that Palps had to think fast to make the plan for he and Sidious plan. If it is only Sidious and not Palps, Sidious is quite lucky that Palps manage to get where was. Sid may have orchatrated the event that lead to Palps accension, but he is quite lucky that Palps said the right thing at the right moment. In AOTC, Palps manipulate JarJar to get emergency powers. It is something Palps seems he does not want. If he was truly true to himself, he would have refuse. If he is in league with Sidious, he had to do some quick thinking to manage to get the emergency powers. On the other hand, Palps/Sid make sense, he see the opportunity and seize it.

Anyway, I think this debate will never be over, but I'd like to add, nice analysis pooh, was kinda cool.

 

hi

 

hello

 

hello... and... good bye.

 

well darth pooh, yours is the most coherent and realistic interpretation of the force i have ever seen put down into words, and i agree fully.
however, none of it uses references to the films that would show the clone believers the truth.
i have seen all five movies, and one thing i looked forward to in the prequels was to see how palpatine became the emperor of the galaxy, and i believe they are doing nicely in telling that story.
now for some film proof (or hints, since that's all we have on either side of the argument) that sidious = palpy.
1. in TPM sidious explains to the trade federation that he has seen to it that the senate will be powerless to help (perhaps not in those exact words) which could only be referring to palps convincing amidala to toss out velorum from office.
2. (and i know this isn't a big clue, but it's there) palps tells anakin "we will be watching your career with great interest, young skywalker"
3. plus, throughout, his smug but convincing sarcastic acting, feigning worry and surprise mirror that of the emp in jedi.
4. in AOTC dooku tells ob1 that a sith lord named sidious has taken control of the senate. (nuff said, i think)
5. early in the film we see palpatine (not sidious) telling anakin that he shouldn't listen to the jedi masters, but that he should trust his feelings, that one day he will become invincible, because he is the most powerful jedi he's ever met. (sounds to me like he's planting those dark side seeds very subtly)
6. ob1 does not trust palpatine one bit, and as we've seen in tpm, he's pretty good about detecting these things early on (it's something elsewhere... elusive)

that's all i can think of off the top of my head, but whether you agree or not, hope everyone enjoys the attack of the clones, because it's freakin awesome!