Proposal for Mod Review Process

Not posting doesn't mean I haven't been reading along (I've also been in MS for discussions about reducing mod numbers).

My point was that "we have more mods than we did, and less traffic, so we're overstaffed" seems to be the general assumption, and I was pointing out that it's only an assumption. It doesn't inherently mean that we're overstaffed. As I pointed out, we've had a fairly high turnover rate recently. Is decreasing the amount of mods going to increase the overall workload and cause more burnout and turnover? That's a question that doesn't seem to have been asked. Why is the notion of being understaffed during the ROTS rush absurd? Why shouldn't it even be considered?

As I said, my point isn't that we're just fine where we are. It's almost certainly true in, say, PT or CT that we have (or, now, had) more mods than we need because there's just not enough work to demand three mods. But as a general principle, "We've overstaffed because we have less traffic, we need fewer mods in general" seems questionable. PT and CT might have been overstaffed . . . but is Arena? Is JCC? Is Fanfic? Is Lit? Is EUC? Is SWC? Is Amph? Is Comms (trick question)? Maybe yes, maybe no. Let's consider them individually rather than simply say, "There's less traffic, so we must be overstaffed, we have to cut positions." It's just not that useful a general principle -- so I suggest we step back and make sure that in each case we do the right thing (and consider whether we actually are overstaffed in general instead of simply assuming we're promoting mods for no good reason just because traffic has gone down) rather than simply make a priority of cutting out positions.

So, yes, I'm nitpicking the logic of certain assumptions and repeating the "case by case" line because, well, I think the logic deserves to be nitpicked and "case by case" is generally a good policy. Maybe that gets in the way of a good clean panic about overstaffing. Maybe it's annoying to the people having their assumptions questioned. Maybe it turns out I'm wrong. Maybe it really helps the discussion. Maybe it just gets ignored. I'll put it out there anyway.

 

Yeah, but that's not what Fan Sites is supposed to be, or at least not what I want it to be. Having a board for the sole purpose of dropping your link and advertising is useless. It needs to also be a discussion board. It needs to be a place where you can not only discuss individual fan sites that people post, as opposed to how they simply drop their link and run like it is now, and a place where there can be discussion on websites as a whole. Personally I think that in the old Fan Films board and the current Fan Films, Fan Audio & Scifi 3D Forum, for example, threads that only said "watch my video" would have been incredibly boring and useless. There needs to be discussions on all aspects of websites, not just "hey, I need staff members, come join the forum I made five minutes ago". Ironically, before I read this thread, I made two such discussion threads here and here. These are the kinds of things that need to become commonplace.

Now I'm certainly not resentful of the fact that you're indirectly suggesting that my place on the staff is useless or unnecessary, because I understand where you're coming from with that, but what needs to be understood from the point of view of the members is that the staff wanted to see Fan Sites turned into something more than just an advertisement board, which is something that I have been advocating for over three years. I've been talking about this since MaxVeers was the mod of the Fan Sites board. I don't even know how many people viewing this thread even remember him, considering how long ago that was.

Now personally, I don't know why DVEditor was made the mod of the Fan Sites board. I honestly can't say I remember him posting in Fan Sites before he became the moderator, but I could be absolutely wrong. That was a long time ago. What did happen though, and I have no problem saying this in public because it's fairly obvious, is that during DVs time as Fan Sites mod, the Fan Sites board was neglected. That was around three years worth of neglect, if I remember my years right. DV was more committed to fan films which, when you think about it, kind of makes sense because there was pre-existing traffic there and it needed to be cared for.

Now, I am here because someone who is completely dedicated to fan sites, rather than being a mod in other forums as well, was needed so that their priority could be the fan sites board and getting it active the way it should be active. Some people may not like it, but the fact of the matter is that I'm here. If the board can't be saved the way I would like it to be saved, then I'll be the first to admit that. I won't lie about the fact, and for that you have my word.

 

Amph isn't all that busy, really. Zaz just goes on mass "thread bumping" sprees. He'll up ten at a time... presumably because he's bored out of his mind.

Bless his heart, the bonehead.

 

Well, it's been 6 months, bac, and you've posted a total of 4 threads. 1 of which was a banner thread, so not really open to discussion, and 2 of which were posted this afternoon. If that's all you've been able to do in 6 months, then at what point do we either:
1)Look for someone else who can actually accomplish something in the forum or
2)Give up and collapse the forum into another Fan Activities forum?

 

I got very busy up until recently and I never hid that fact. What had been my inactivity there for awhile wasn't hurting anyone or anything so it was nothing to make an issue out of, but even then when I wasn't that active in the boards I was still conferring with 506 and other members who are concerned about Fan Sites to get things going that will help Fan Sites grow out of the hole that it's been dug into.

 

As a former moderator of the ROTS spoiler forum leading up to the debut (and past it) I can say without question we were not understaffed. In fact, were purposely overstaffed. Overstaffed to a point where a month after ROTS debuted, dehrian, G-FETT and myself stepped down as we felt we were not needed any longer.

 

I think (and I could be wrong) that Havac's point here was about all the other forums on here.

Was every other forum equally overstaffed? I was in and out at the time, so I don't recall. I do know that Lit was not overstaffed.

 

The two most active forums during the last year leading up to ROTS were the ROTS spoiler forum and the JCC. The ROTS forum was overstaffed by at least 3 mods towards the end. In 2004 you couldn't say we were overstaffed, but by the end some of us knew we were.

The JCC had at least 4 mods if not 5 at the time. If there was any complaint about being understaffed then it was usually because one mod wasn't pulling his or her weight. But they still got by.

 

Well, okay... so RotS and YJCC were overstaffed. PT has significantly reduced staff as compared to that point, so I don't really think that's an issue anymore.

Are we basically coming down to tarring the whole JC with the brush of YJCC? Because honestly, that's what it seems like. I don't know that it's true, but it definitely comes across that way.

I'm trying really hard not to come across dismissively here, because I'm not trying to dismiss the concerns that have been raised. Am I alone in feeling this way? I might be crazy. (Actually, I'm pretty sure I am; I just don't know whether it's carrying over to this particular topic or not. )

 

DV picked it up in addition to Fan Films, when MaxVeers stepped down. He was also doing icons and then picked up the "Google Search Box" job until Grimby put it into code.

 

That's what I figured, but I didn't want to say anything in case that was just a wild guess.

 

OK, I can certainly believe that. But does that mean JCC was overstaffed? Was Lit overstaffed at that time? Was CT? Was NSWFF (trick question)? We've increased the amount of boards, too, so moderator numbers are naturally going to go up . . . so how does having a ridiculous amount of mods on the ROTS forums logically result in our being overstaffed now when those boards and mods are gone, and in their successor board, PT, we only have two mods? That's the link that I'm not seeing.

 

I think we should "over"-staff all the forums. More than enough coverage is far superior to not quite enough coverage.

 

There is some merit to that, but only if you have, say, maybe one extra person. If you have more than that and they're not really needed to do much, then they can walk around having nothing to do and basically be a normal member who happens to have a staff title. That's the downside, really.

 

When exactly has there ever been not enough coverage?

 

Here's what I don't get though. There should never be NOTHING to do. If there is nothing to do then the forum itself shouldn't exist. I'm not talking about actual mod actions that the board keeps track of. That isn't modding. If all you're doing is racking up mod actions then yur doin' it wrong.

I like the 'being a leader of the forum' idea behind what a mod does. Its a visible poster who interacts, sometimes leads, and draws discussions out. Its knowing when you need to step up and take control of something and when to back off and let the users be in charge. Do I need to be the leader of every FC that is in the EUC? No. I do need to be a member of quite a few (and that's not a problem since I am in love with half of the SW characters). Do I sometimes need to step up into a leadership role in and FC? Yes, most definitely. Case in point, the Sith thread. I am on the counsel now after allowing the users to try it first and things were kinda dying so it was asked of me to step into a more prominent and visible role. When things are fine again and someone else wants more responsibility, I will back off again. This all doing what the users have asked of me, basically, but if you don't have a good relationship which comes from posting and being involved, then they're not going to be asking anything of you (besides to edit a thread title) because you aren't seen as one of the 'guys'.

 

There is no doubt that the majority of users will agree with you, and I think that is the point people are trying to get across as osme feel that this is not the case in some cases.

 

Currently some staff can get away with not pulling their weight and being fairly inactive. Still, the forums didnt burn down and the heaven didnt collapse on us. In other words, even without these dead weight mods MS should be able to handle things. To me, that is a clear sign that many forums are over-staffed and a clear sign that not much more staff is needed.

However, like Lisar has pointed out, being a mod is not about being a police officer patrolling the forums, it should be about getting your forum more active. Encouraging users to participate. Spur discussions, initiate games and contents, things like that. Handling the ban stick should be the last thing on any mods agenda and the last resort. It should all be about being a positive influence on a forum. And that can only be done by being active. Games and contests wont start itself, it will take an effort to start them. Adding more mods to the equation doesnt do the trick. Active and motivated mods are what is needed. It takes one active and motivated person to start a game or contest. The key should be to get those motivated and active people in charge of those forums as a mod.

Any mod who is barely active only keep a forum deadlocked in its current state. Mods like Lisa and Inty are good examples of what is possible if somebody actually showed initiative and tried to positively influence their forums. They had to invest a lot of time in their forums first, but it paid off, activity has grown. Their attitude and way of working should be an example to all.

 

^^ What Erwin said.

It's important for moderators to ENGAGE their users. That's ideally what they're there for... as Erwin said, banning / editing should be secondary.

If a moderator is logging in real quick to check threads for possible foul play / misbehaving, then logging out, they may be too busy to mod, or not fully into it... which is okay. Some of us are adults with lives, which are busy. The thing is, being able to recognize that is important. Holding on to a title, when you honestly don't have the capacity to fully dedicate yourself (not saying you need to be online 12 hours per day, just enough to participate wholeheartedly, and be a positive influence, and a genuine contributor), isn't a good idea. Being honest with yourself and your forum is key.

 

I can't remember the last time I had to ban or edit someone. Mostly, my actions as a mod include interacting with other members (reading and replying to their stories), posting some of my own, and clearing up questions on the suitability of posts. We tend to do a lot of that. Writers want to make sure that their work meets the guidelines for our forums. I like that part because it gives me a sneak peek at other works.

My status as a mod is secondary, at least in my eyes. I'm first a reader and writer of fan fiction.

 

That's tough, Sinre, because 10 users do not make up a forum. Is that really a good sample? What if he randomly picked 10 users who dislike the mod, but 40 other users who use the forum really like the mod? I like you're idea, but I don't like quantifying it.

 

Mods don't see the names of people who have made review comments about them, so no one should be afraid to volunteer information. 506 also gives mods the option of receiving review info in digest form, so they don't even see users' exact words. That's an extra level of anonymity for people who feel that their writing style might be recognizable. (FWIW, I recognize writing styles easily, and asked for the digest version. I still have no idea who said what.)

We could always give users the option of choosing whether they want to be directly or indirectly quoted--assuming Chris always has the time to summarize a bunch of PM's every 2 weeks.

We could also try the random, unsolicited PM survey route, but I don't know that we'd get a great return on our efforts. I actually did this a few years ago, when there was a massive referendum on a couple of Fanfic mods. What I found was that people who'd never volunteered an opinion about moderators were 10 times more likely to be satisfied with them than those who'd commented openly. These quiet users also tend to be a bit puzzled as to why anyone would ask.

If someone wants to do the work, I see no reason why random surveys would hurt anything. I just don't think it's going to be the "stricter" review process some are looking for.

 

Quick question did LemmingLord step down??