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Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by {Quantum/MIDI}, Feb 16, 2016.

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  1. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    First off, you're quoting Slicer87 above, not me. But I'll jump in here to contest this notion that Kylo has "never been seriously challenged". He's meant to me "Master of the Knights of Ren"; and therefore a leader of bad men. Snoke even says to him: "Even you have never faced such a test." The clear implication being that he's been through some stuff to get where he is. The film effectively wants it both ways; as Ingram_I pointed out in a particularly eloquent dissection. When Kylo needs to be tough and threatening and awesomely menacing, he's tough and threatening and awesomely menacing. When he needs to be an awkward wreck and bleeding wuss, he's an awkward wreck and bleeding wuss. It's certainly a different depiction for a Star Wars villain. I don't know if it's "bad" per se; but perhaps it's a bit too angst-ridden a portrayal for it to be entirely believable against the basic world parameters presented.

    Why does that duel image remind me of this chat? [face_laugh]

    But anyway...

    I think you've made an analogy there that's both crooked and callow. ROTJ is Luke's third film and the throne room sequence is Luke and Vader's second confrontation. Luke obviously grows in power and ability across the films; even constructing his own lightsaber, as Vader identifies, to symbolize his own command of his previously latent and undeveloped abilities. Moreover, he's finally colour- and hand-matched to Vader in "Jedi" to starkly emphasize his similitude with his father. That's part of what makes their second encounter so visually striking and intense. Lucas controls his colours and his character arcs very well across the different (yet archly resonant) episodes. It's part of the joy of watching and revisiting these films. In TFA, by contrast, they did the storytelling equivalent of smearing vaseline on the lens to "fudge" things, making it easier (at the risk of hopelessly mixing metaphors) for queen to check king. Rey suddenly has a similar power-level to Luke, despite her mustard clothing, blatant lack of any recent training, and unfamiliarity with both a lightsaber and Kylo as an opponent. She doesn't even go into the fight in a particularly cool-headed way; yet still wins. Arguably, this alone is an anti-SW theme. The Emperor certainly works Luke into a state, but Young Skywalker exudes greater control and dexterity, befitting his enhanced abilities and cooler mindset since prematurely battling Vader on Cloud City.

    Also, you cite Vader's cybernetic strength, but this is a bit of a red herring when you consider who or what Vader is now up against in their second duel. Yes, he gave Luke a tough time on Cloud City, and he easily disposes of those "red shirt" rebels in "Rogue One" (if we're counting the Gareth Edwards film), but Luke is meant to be much tougher and meaner second time around. Vader can still menace Luke, but Luke is more apt to stand his ground and give back whatever Vader "throws" at him. The odds have evened up. Cybernetic strength, next to a well-trained Jedi warrior, isn't necessarily "all that". For instance, in ROTS, Grievous should rightly cream Obi-Wan in an instant; yet Obi-Wan is able to stand his ground and ultimately beat his robotic nemesis because he is supremely adept with the Force, and a seasoned combatant, in a way that Grievous isn't. It's the Force and being good with it that makes all the difference in Star Wars. But Rey is handed a big load of Force power on a silver platter (or *in* a silver lightsaber) and she doesn't really have to do anything to "earn" it. Even Anakin in TPM isn't ready to go swinging a lightsaber and cut Maul's head off. Controlled use of the Force against other Force-endowed sophisticates is meant to take time, hard work, patience, and experience to acquire. But Rey is "good to go" from her very first (and rather fretful) engagement. That's new.
  2. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 6, 2015
    Rey is not at the power level of Luke, as Kylo is clearly not at the power level of Vader. Again there are explanations for Vader's sudden lack in robotic strength (Vader's tired, he's part human, Luke is mean), but no such explanations are accepted for TFA (Ren is shot, he's bleeding out, he's unfocussed). Obi-Wan is able to beat GG, after GG gives him a good thrashing. There's no doubt in ROTS, that Obi-Wan is physically no match for GG, similarly like Luke should physically be no match for Vader. The only reason Obi-Wan finally wins, is because he is able to Force pull a blaster to use on his enemy. Obi-Wan was about to fall to his death, if not for the blaster.

    Which actually brings me to another point, while the GG Obi-Wan fight is good fun, and I actually like it a lot, it's pretty odd that Obi-Wan never tries to Force push GG during their fight like he did before, or better lift him up with the Force, and throw him over the balcony. Obi-Wan is an experienced Jedi, and GG is not a Force user. The fight should have been over in seconds. I'm pretty sure, that if JJ had put a scene in TFA, where a non-Force user almost beats a fully trained Jedi, who conveniently forgets some of his powers, there would be hell to pay. I'm also sure you guys will be able to come up with explanations (Obi-Wan was tired, or whatever), but again there are always explanations for the movies you like , and none for the ones you dislike. Not that I'm any different, but it is the way of things...

    In any case here's my explanation for the progression of the TFA lightsaber battle:

    1) Rey cannot automatically be assumed to be a complete novice, as she was obviously a vergence in the Force, since she was delibirately abandoned on Jakku.
    2) Rey was very skilled with a quarterstaff, which is not a weapon very different from a double bladed lightsaber.
    3) Kylo Ren is seriously injured, bleeding profusely, and thus getting weaker with every blow he strikes.
    4) Rey composes herself, allowing her to feel the Force, while Kylo loses his composure. This allows her to beat the already severely weakened Ren.

    I think this sequence of events is made pretty clear by the film.
  3. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 10, 2005
    Fair enough :)

    What we know is that he felt responsible and disappeared. What we don't know is that he's turned his back on everyone. He went looking for the first Jedi Temple. Now, why would he go and do that? Could it be that he's searching for lost knowledge that might help him gain new insight and, to quote one of his friends, "begin to make things right"?
    As for the lightsaber... There's an emotional moment where he's clearly sorrowful and apprehensive and Rey has no idea how he will respond. Before either of them has a chance to say or do something, the scene ends. So, to say that he won't accept the lightsaber is a pretty big assumption.

    Possible, yes. I find it unlikely, myself.

    EDIT: What Hamill or any of the other actors are saying about their characters in TLJ is something I don't want to know too much about before I've seen the movie, so I think I'd better leave this thread before it's too late ;)
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  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 6, 2016
    Vader didn't let Luke beat him. Let's just clear that up.

    Vader want's Luke to join him and to overthrow the emperor. But he wants and needs him to turn to the darkside in order to do so. He still does not fully realise that Luke's path to the darkside must result in him dying (showing that Vader's judgement is still as poor as Anakin's). Also, Vader is still confused somewhat about Palpatine. He knows that supporting him was wrong, but he still believes he had good reason to do so at the time.

    In order to empower his son sufficiently to oppose Palpatine's rule he pushes him further until he unwittingly goads him into unleashing his fears and anger in a way that Vader, who cannot hate and therefore cannot kill his son, has not the power to resist.

    There are a lot of reasons why Vader was never going to defeat Luke this time. Letting Luke beat him wasn't one of them. Letting Luke beat him was the last thing Vader wanted.
  5. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2012
    Also, if I can pile on, in ROTJ, in the scene in particular that DrDre is showing, Luke has tapped into the Dark Side because of a direct threat made against someone he is attached too, which when added to what you have already outlined, allowed Luke to overpower his Father. Remember the words of the Emperor:

    Rey has no such moment. She barely is able to tap into the Force itself, and has no threat made against her attachments that kicks her into the Dark Side. Yet goes full on super Jedi on Kylo.

    Also, earlier in your post you made reference to Anakin not being able to beat Maul yet in TPM, let's not forget that even after 10 years of training, Anakin still wasn't able to beat Dooku even as powerful as Anakin was. Why? Because Dooku had more experience and training, and at that moment was stronger with the force. Yet again what happens with Rey flies in the face of what has been established.
  6. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Dec 21, 2015
    I am on phone so please bare with my structuring and "fractured" thinking(I'm sort of "lacking" in motivation when it comes to conversations).

    But you have seemed to tickled my noggin while I was "observing" this conversation on my phone. I never intended to join in, but your comment intrigued me..

    Initially, my thoughts on the title "Phantom Menace" were perceived as mere, same entities. However, my thoughts as of late have seemed to differ on that subject. The thought that a "Phantom Menace" as a negative entity(or vilifying), doesn't actually make sense.

    "Something apparently seen, heard, or sensed, but having no physical reality; a ghost or apparition; something elusive or delusive.
    An image that appears only in the mind; an illusion."

    A ghost, a spectral. Something of an elusive nature(aka non-tangible). They are, an observer.

    A menace is with harmful intent. Not "necessarily" describing a person who is evil, but just an act(or possible act).

    Anakin(awakening) isn't what I would further call "Phantom Menace". At least in TPM. He is by definition, a phantom. Effortlessly phasing through the Jedi, the sith and their own ignorance of Anakin's own existence(an existence made possible through the force). Presumably, the Jedi are a cognitive(if I'm using this word correctly)'s an idea definitely. Bit up and out all over the place but I think you get my, slight ambitious expression.
  7. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 6, 2015
    Don't know exactly who referred to Maul, but it wasn't me. ;)

    In any case, it doesn't fly in the face of what has been established, since we've never seen a fight involving a severely injured Force user until TFA. The closest thing is Obi-Wan in AOTC, who was completely incapacitated after being cut in his arm and leg. It was made obvious by the film, that Kylo was bleeding profusely, and he was hacking at Rey more than being tactical swordsman.


    So, the idea that Rey beat a far more experienced Force user by going super Jedi simply doesn't fly with me, because Kylo would have collapsed eventually due to massive blood loss.
  8. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2012

    I wanted to say that, for my part, I agree with you wholeheartedl. All Star Wars movies, well almost all movies in general have those moments that we are discussing here. It happens when only a handful of people are working on a movie that millions will see.

    However, with TFA, specifically the part from where Kylo gets shot to where Rey and company arrive back on the Rebel base, is so packed with those inconsistencies that even general movie goers were taking notice.

    With the issue of the Jedi Force speed in TPM most general movie goers aren't going to notice it. Hell I never noticed it until years later when I read it online. With TFA those inconsistencies are just too in your face and too many in such a short amount of time.

    It all starts with the bow caster. The movies spends more than a few moments showing us that the bowcaster is powerful. So powerful it picks up 180+ pound storm troopers, flips and throws them many feet in the air. When it hits Kylo though, he barely takes a step back... OK so maybe it grazed him? Well if it's just a graze, than that isn't a serious enough wound to weaken him.
    How serious is he wounded then? Well apparently not serious enough to actually beat Rey and Finn in a foot race to where ever they were going...

    And how did he know where they were going in order to get ahead of them, beat them here and wait for them?

    Once he's there and wounded, with what seems just a graze, because he obviously didn't take a direct hit from the bow caster otherwise he would have flipped like a dolphin like the storm troopers did, but more than a graze because it supposedly affects his fighting ability, but not serious enough of a graze to slow him down in a foot race.... and then there's the issues with the duel etc etc up until where Chewbacca blows off Leia...

    Anyway, my point is that usually a small issue can be overlooked and hand waved away if one so chooses. However in TFA, the issues pile up in a very short amount of time, so much so I had co-workers that saw the movie coming to me pointing out the issues after one viewing (as they know I am a huge Star Wars fan).

    I don't think in any other Star WRs movie to date there are so many of those issues in such a short amount of time.

    That's just my opinion...
  9. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 6, 2015
    He's bleeding pretty badly, so even if it's a graze, it's a serious one.

    Now it get's interesting. There are two explanations:

    1) While the actual film doesn't show this, we know from the novelization and the deleted scenes, that Kylo Ren found the parked Millenium Falcon, which obviously is where Rey and Finn are headed. So, he knows where they are going, and since he's knows the terrain far better than either of the heroes, he knows how to cut them off, before they reach their destination.

    2) Rey and Finn also had to climb down that very long ladder, while Kylo was already at ground level, so it would take him less time to reach the same destination.

    So, while I agree with you that the movie itself takes some short cuts in this respect, the explanations are there and plausible in my opinion.
  10. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Dec 21, 2015
    Are you taking those explanations from the book and putting them with the movies to move away from the inconsistencies?

    Because I feel that it actually is not only unfair, but cheap when you have to point the viewers to read a book or watch some episode to explain a movies plot or flaws.
  11. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 6, 2015

    Firstly, I provided two explanations, one of which came from a book AND a deleted scene. The other can be inferred from the film itself.

    Secondly, you wouldn't know how many times I've read explanations for inconsistencies that came from a book, or from interviews with Lucas himself on these very boards. So, Your criticism isn't really fair, especially since I already stated the film itself takes short cuts.
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  12. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

    Aug 9, 2002
    I was confused as well. First Chewie's bow destroys the entire Republic with one shot, and then it only wounds Kylo? That was crazy.
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  13. TheDutchman

    TheDutchman Jedi Knight star 1

    Nov 10, 2015
    and split into five separate bullets.......insanity.
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  14. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2013
    Or how people in different solar systems can see the blasts and planet destructions instantly rather than million years later.

    Most of the ot and pt explanations are in the films themselves if you are willing to look. Sadly many are not and rather look up fanon in many of those so called source books and ignore what the films are really saying, ( Maul died in TPM, Dooku ordered the army and killed Syfo to use his name, the stormtroopers being clones, the Empire having no redeeming qualities, Darth Vader isn't the complete badass everyone makes him out to be and is really more bratty and pathetic than Anakin ever was, etc).

    Also what is being missed, is that when Kylo shows up, he beats his own wound to show how the pain isn't affecting him. TFA shows Kylo can withstand injuries that would disable more powerful force users such as Obi and Anakin, let is still defeated by a complete layman who is just rushing into the fight. The same action that resulted in both Anakin and Luke getting maimed and losing, but Rey somehow not only survives intact, but wins despite the lack of training.

    In real life, wounded opponents can still be dangerous and kill you. There was one case back in the 20s where a FBI agent riddled a mobster with his Thompson SMG, yet the mobster still, had enough life left to fatally shoot the agent who killed him. Even with M16s, soldiers complain that combatants can still get up and continue to fight even with 20 rounds in their bodies.
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  15. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 6, 2015
    Yet, Obi-Wan is completely incapacitated in AOTC after two cuts. So, why is he not getting up to atack Dooku, or at least helping Anakin using the Force from a distance. If people can continue to fight with 20 rounds in their body, two cuts shouldn't be much of an issue. Yet, Obi-Wan just lies there. This is the problem with your criticism. It can be applied to the Obi -Wan/Dooku fight as well, but of course that scene is perfectly acceptable, for some inexplicable reason.

    The fact that Kylo is beating himself seems more like a manner of pumping himself up, and trying to pretend it doesn't bother him, but the pool of blood should be enough indication, that he won't be able to sustain that act for long.
  16. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2013

    Depends where the rounds are placed, a single little .22lr to the forehead will instantly kill the best fighters. Spray and pray is not as nearly as effective as Hollywood makes it out be. Soldiers often have to keep fighting with injuries where law enforcement officers can be disabled with far less injuries because they are less used to combat.

    Other factors include the nature of the weapons, .223s (and 5.56s) are small, fast zippy rounds that pass through clean, resulting in less tissue trauma. In fact, .223s are light varment rounds not originally designed for human sized targets. But its small, light to carry, good range, and very cheap. In fact, SMGs class of firearms are largely outdated being pistol caliper carbines in full auto form, especially with improved body armor.

    Dooku's slices would cause a wide band of trauma, depending how deep the cuts are. Now Chewie's bowcaster is pretty much a grande launcher, or acts like one with blowing stormtroopers up into the air or throwing them backwards several feet. This begs the question why Ren wasn't sent flying butt over tincups even with a grancing blow. A weapon that hits its target that hard is also going to have awfully strong recoil, hence why big guns are mounted instead of held.

    Plus Obi still did help Anakin by force throwing him, his lightsaber for a double attack.
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  17. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 6, 2015
    Sure, but this just shows you can bend any argument to fit your narrative. I like the TFA fight, so I will downplay any potential inconsistency, while you dislike it, and so you overemphasize any potential inconsistency.
  18. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Dec 21, 2015
    I think we can all agree that when discussing inconsistent plot points between TFA and the PT in this thread, won't get us anywhere. Not only has this been done In the thread, but now it's starting to end up a tad "circle jerky".
  19. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005

    Your sentiments are well-heeded and I do agree with them; but just to clarify my view here...

    See, in all of that, I feel like you're talking past me to an extent. I acknowledged that GG should rightfully be able to cream Obi-Wan. But I also indicated that Obi-Wan has the Force and is very adept with it. The same with Luke vs. Vader in their second confrontation (versus their first: where Vader is clearly toying with him). Luke's maturation provides more of an effective bulwark against Vader when they face off a second time. Why? Because, again, like Obi-Wan, Luke has grown in strength and ability and become much more adept. This is a key point of delineation and departure between the Lucas films, or the "original saga", and the new Disney cosmology. Unlike prior combatants, Rey doesn't really have to earn her ability to stand up to Kylo. She simply can because Abrams/Kasdan/Disney allow her to. Yes, there are some implicit vectors beneath the surface, and there is Kylo in a weakened state, but still... In my opinion, it's a move away from the firm pulp heroics of the former films, wedded to a carefully-crafted Hero's Journey, to more of a hack-and-slash, pop-fantastic, have-a-go-Harry style of storytelling. Star Wars going off-ramp.

    Furthermore, while you're correct that people contrive explanations for the films they prefer, the story parameters of a film sometimes, in my opinion, provide better conditions for some explanations to flower over others. The Grievous duel, for instance, is one duel out of five in ROTS. I am therefore a bit more inclined to let it off for some of its contrivances. As you yourself said, it is "good fun"; a delicious carnival contraption; a dashing destruction derby; a lurid Clone War caper. It's a side-order dish in an epic, seizing, Faustian ballet; a wondrous jolt of giddy, strobing excess. But the confrontation between Rey and Kylo is meant to be the main course (so much so that the aerial battle is pushed into more of a secondary or peripheral position).

    Also, I'm sorry, but Obi-Wan is a skilled Jedi Master. He has his own growth cycle in the prequel trilogy. Rey might have had some early training, she might be another "vergence" of some kind, but she's also still a novice. Yet she gets the better of this brutal mercenary figure; without doing anything especially noteworthy or clever. Unlike Obi-Wan; who is rather obviously going through the motions, to some extent, to lure Grievous (a baddie he seems to have some "history" with) into an overconfident state and take advantage of a critical weakness. You skipped right past that part, by the way. I responded to you before that Kylo isn't meant to be chopped liver, but "Master of the Knights of Ren". Presumably, a pretty formidable guy; but all his powers conveniently fail him when duking it out with Rey. Even though he has no trouble flinging her against a tree and knocking her out cold just before that.

    Finally, to round off with the Luke-Vader duel(s) one more time, I want to underline something absolutely critical to the Lucas films: control. As Yoda instructs Luke in TESB, "Control, you must learn control." Then, when Luke is about to fly off and cut his training short to confront Vader, against the wishes of both his mentors, Luke tries to justify his choice by saying, "I feel the Force". However, Obi-Wan counters, "But you cannot control it." By rights, Rey should have very little control in the Force; especially with her emotions being in such disarray (dis-a-rey). And what, by the way, is Finn's excuse? How is he able to stand up to Kylo at all? None of this is outright bad, but it feels like the string has gone slack, to me. Having control is crucial to mastery of just about anything; never mind in a battle situation where one needs exquisite focus just to have the slimmest chance of getting the job done. Even the clones rightly go through an extensive training program before seeing combat. The Kaminoans don't hard-wire everything they need to know straight into their genetic structure. If Rey had any comparable conditioning, it was evidently brought to a quick end, judging by her age in the vision sequence. So i guess you could read it as one slightly-out-of-control person beating another slightly-out-of-control person. Neat; and yet... blegh.

    But look. I don't think anything they really did in TFA was necessarily terrible. It's just that a lot of it, in my opinion, is at least questionable. I think, like all the Star Wars movies, they devised a set of problems (or inherited them -- whichever you think applies) and tried to come up with reasonable salves and solutions. I can enjoy the Rey-Kylo fight as its own entity; but a part of me can't help thinking, "This is a bit simplistic". I understand that Kylo is weak and that Rey has a background (of some sort), but I feel like they took the grain of Star Wars and put an axe through it, splitting the more built-up structure of the former films apart, in order that they could do it the way they wanted. You can do that; but it throws the whole thing off-axis and might be a reason some have difficulties with it. My opinion, anyway.
  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    RE: Kylo.

    To me, he has a great deal of power yes. But what he hasn't mastered is control and focus.
    We see this several times in the course of the film. And Kylo is conflicted, he talks about this and he wants this conflict in him to end. He wants to be assured, focused and in command. That is why he gets the idea that killing his father will achieve that. But he is totally wrong. It does not make him more focused and in control, it does the exact opposite.

    Focus and control are important to Force users, Yoda make this clear to Luke.
    He can lift stones when he is clam and focused, but when he looses that calm and focus, he also looses the power.
    Vader also exploits this in ESB, he is working to make Luke scared and rattled and make him loose focus and his calm.

    Anakin in AotC has not yet mastered control and focus and he can go off half-cocked.
    We see this when he charges Dooku and gets zapped for his effort.
    So Anakin doing this is not smart but it is consistent with his character as the film has established it.
    I would say that when Anakin fights Obi-Wan, he is likewise not very calm or in control, which gives Obi-Wan an advantage.
    Same with Kylo in TFA, the film had established his lack of control and how he can loose it.
    So that he is an unfocused and ranting mess in the end and thus far less powerful, that also fits his character.

    Side-note, this is why I find Maul's death in TPM less good, he has been shown as smart and cunning in the whole fight and suddenly and for no apparent reason, he looses 100 IQ points so that Obi-Wan can beat him.
    That he toys and taunts Obi-Wan when he is hanging in the pit. That fits because Maul is an evil bad guy and gloating over their foes is the cliché thing for evil bad guys. But the rest bother me.

    Back to Kylo and injuries.
    We have seen that injuries can weaken a Force user and make it harder for them to use the Force.
    Obi-Wan in AotC, he could still use the Force but it was harder and he could not do as much.
    Luke after loosing his hand in ESB, he can still use the Force but again it was harder and he seemed weaker.
    Anakin after getting cut to pieces, he didn't try to use the Force to get away or attack Obi-Wan. So his pain and injuries weakened him.
    So that Kylo's injury would weaken him and give him less command of the Force, I don't have a problem with that.
    And pain can cause you to loose focus and again that can make use of the Force harder.

    The counter is then, why is he even able to fight?
    Well we also see that Dark side users are more durable and can survive very serious injuries.
    Best ex is Anakin in RotS. His wounds would have killed almost anyone I would think.
    But he keeps himself alive until Palpatine gets there.
    EU I know but Maul apparently survived getting cut in half and falling down a deep pit.
    And Palpatine, when he blasts Mace and gets it back in his face. Yes he staging this but I would think it had to hurt and he was melting his own face.

    But to bring it back to TLJ.
    The trailer showed Kylo's mask shattered.
    Did Kylo do that?
    Very likely.
    Why and what does this mean for him as a character?

    Well, why did he wear that thing? Vader more less had to, Maul, Dooku and Palpatine had no masks.
    Well Sidious had a hood.
    One possibility is that he felt that his own face was not scary enough and so wanted to appear more intimidating.
    A rather immature reason sure but Kylo is not a mature character.
    Or he feels that his own face is still that of Ben Solo and he despises that part of himself, so he hides it behind a mask.
    Or he is just a Vader fanboy and figures that he needs a mask since Vader had one.
    Again not a mature reason.

    So what does the shattering of the mask mean?
    It could mean he is more confident and is through hiding his face.
    Or he feels that Ben Solo is now finally dead after what he did and now he can show his true face.
    Or he feels that the scar makes him intimidating and now wants to show it.

    In closing, and a slight digression.
    I found some elements of Kylo in two characters from Avatar TLA.
    Namely Zuko and Azula.
    Zuko start as the antagonist and he tries to capture Aang but fails and he even fights him at times but is defeated.
    That he looses does not make him less of an antagonist.
    He is a conflicted character, he wants one thing but his heart says something different. He is pulled over to the good side over time but then betrays Aang and co and turns bad again. But he becomes good at last.
    Zuko did not know what he wanted, he was in conflict with himself, he was lost and unfocused and this weakened him. When he thought he had gotten what he wanted, he felt even worse than before.
    Now Kylo is nowhere near as good or interesting as Zuko but some elements of him I find intriguing.

    As for Azula, she is the opposite at first, calm, confident and in total control. And thus she is very deadly and a formidable foe. But towards the end, something happens that shatters her confidence and world view.
    This cause her to "crack" and she looses her calm and focus and begins to rant and give in to insanity.
    And this makes her much weaker. Still dangerous sure but not as dangerous as before.
    Kylo is nowhere near as focused or calm as she is but when she cracks and begins to loose it, that is not totally unlike how Kylo is towards the end.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  21. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    Good point here, Samuel. I actually didn't think of that so much. Perhaps the ability to endure injury with the Dark Side has an almost transcendent quality to it. Certainly, the Anakin example is illustrative of Vader's "black will" to survive; but he isn't exactly in a fighting state at the end of it. However, Anakin is seriously wrecked -- "one fried being". So perhaps surviving as he does is impressive enough. He would not let Obi-Wan and the "evil" of the Jedi defeat him. To exist is to resist. Conversely, Palpatine also endures tremendous insult, but eagerly rallies back. It's not his whole body that is compromised like Anakin's is; he's ready to come more fully alive and strike back. However, one thing that throws a bit of a wrench in your argument, I think, is that it's clear Palpatine is not getting his face damaged, per se; rather, he is undergoing some sort of twisted chrysalis. His hands, his eyes, his voice; these all change and deform into something bizarre. He is using the Dark Side to unlock something he has kept hidden; he is shedding his "Palpatine" skin and embracing his "Sidious" persona.

    Nonetheless, you got me a little with the word "face". The saga could be construed as a procession of faces. The Saga With A Thousand Faces. There are all sorts of intriguing ripples and meditations on the power of faces to reveal, conceal, beguile, horrify, etc. One thing that adds such excitement and kabuki intrigue to the lightning scene in ROTS, in my opinion, is that Mace and Palpatine both get their faces blasted. It's a neat rhyme with their earlier close-ups where they're gurning at one another (the last shots of their duel in the corridor before it cuts to Anakin landing and exiting his speeder). Similarly, Obi-Wan and Grievous get an awesome close-up on their faces, or their "masks", moments before Obi-Wan Force pushes Grievous, flinging him dramatically high, slamming him into that ceiling structure, in a rhyme with Jabba biting off the head of that frog creature and spitting it into the gong to signal the start of the Boonta Eve podrace. Later, more striking close-ups: Yoda and Sidious in the Senate; and Anakin when the Vader mask descends and seals into place.

    Which leads me onto...

    For all my criticism of TFA, I do find it a rather compelling film on some levels. I don't know if it's as complex as the saga films; but it has something going for it. I've previously deemed it both the most and the least interesting of all the Star Wars films to date. I stand by that. As the first live-action saga film "based" on the main saga, it is uniquely aesthetically arresting. And there are some neat motifs implanted therein. And in that vein, check out the following analysis, short as it is, on the role/function of masks in the Abrams film. It connects very well with what you're saying:

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  22. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Aug 19, 2003
    STAR WARS Celebration Orlando 2017 Pics! Part 14

    More pics from Celebration Orlando 2017! LEGO statues, Forces of Destiny, Micro Machines, Black Series, ARTFX, Gentle Giant busts and more!
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  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    First, interesting video, thank you.

    Second, some good points.

    I had read about Palpatine, various theories that "Palpatine" was really a mask, a kind of Force "Glamour" used to make Sidous, not exactly "Fair" but at least not repulsive looking.
    Or that "Sidious" is who he really is and the lighting strips away the surface and shows the corruption at the heart of him.
    I have also read about some of the early concepts of the Emperor, that he was supposed to be really ancient and he had used the dark side to extend his life far beyond what was normal and his body was evolving into something else.
    Possibly they used some of the ideas that when they made Snoke.

    About "masks" of all five dark side users, only Maul doesn't have a "mask", literal or otherwise.
    But we know very little of him.
    Sidous has the Palpatine "Mask/persona" to make his job to subvert the republic easier.
    Dooku uses his old name for much the same reason while he really is Tyrannus.
    Vader has an obvious mask for medical reasons but he does not want to acknowledge his old name.
    Possibly because it is too painful and he only uses his new name. At least after the suit.
    Kylo has a mask but unlike the others, he has no medical reason or a "trick people" reason.
    Instead, his reason is purely personal, image, lack of confidence, a devotion to his "idol".
    Like Vader he rejects his old name, probably not because of pain but he sees his old self as weak.
    And the source of the conflict he is struggling with.

    Anakin had no serious problem with himself, he had goals and to achieve them, he did terrible things and betrayed his old ideals. But he also lost things he valued.
    So he rejects his old name out of pain and loss. Plus it the whole part of sith tradition thing.
    Kylo wants to embrace his new identity because he thinks it will make him strong, confident and respected. He looks down on who he used to be, wants to forget him but he hasn't gone out of his way to hunt down either of his parents. The idea to kill his father seemed a spur of the moment thing and only came about because Han sought him out.

    So in a way, the film has it's Vader clone in Kylo, a seemingly cool, bad *** villain. Powerful and intimidating. He is introduced much the same way.
    But he really isn't. He wants to be that, he craves it but he really fails at it.
    So he is a poser, a wannabe, a fan boy.

    Where does he go in TLJ?
    No idea but I think it might be interesting.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  24. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2013
    With my issues with the Rey vs Kylo duel, I have a lot more problems with Rey than Kylo. Yes Kylo is a punk, has poor control, wounded, doubting himself, etc. However, being a force punk is still much better than being a complete force layman which Rey is. Yes Rey is likely strong in the force, but prior films shows force potential does not trump better training and experience which both Anakin and Luke learned the hard way. She should not have won so decisively. Being untrained in both the force and lightsaber combat, besides being female vs a larger and stronger male foe, plus trained foe out of her league are major handicaps she should not have overcame so easily. TPM and ANH as standalones explain how and why their two young heros can do what they do. TFA, does not explain it that well, why Rey can do what she can do. Perhaps TLJ will clear things up better, since TFA was vague on purpose to prop up its shortcomings.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  25. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 11, 2017
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