PT PT Discussion of future SW Content (Locked) - Discussion Moved to Saga Board

Darth Downunder I don't want to start an argument but you know the situation with Avatar. James Cameron has direct control and sequels/prequels are (and have been) in the works since the release of the first film.
Novels and comics would affect the story he wants to tell so to my knowledge there isn't any of it.
I have a "Activist Survival guide" from the first film that explores the world of Pandora and other stuff. It's like that world's in universe visual dictionary.

They shouldn't be compared at all.
Because on your own assessment, TFA doesn't really have any successfull Novels or comics beyond a small selection. There aren't any ongoing tales. You have tie in materials that Avatar had as well.

Plus Avatar has 3 more movies in development, with the third being a prequel of some sorts. TFA has 2.

 

IMO the success & the phenomenon that was Avatar was far more about the amazing visual effects than the story or the characters. It was an event movie bcs of the sensory experience. SW are incredible visual movies too but the story & characters take precedence. The ST has successfully created huge interest in its unfolding story. Compare the profile & recognition of the TFA & Avatar characters. Rey, BB-8 & Kylo Ren vs the Aussie guy & the blue chick. As you say, no comparison.

 

STAR WARS Rogue One SPOILER New Clips & Pics! Part 30

 

Actually no. All I said in a post that was not directed at you, but to someone else whose statements I agreed and disagreed with, and I quote:

"Yet no one can ignore how TFA under performed in China.."

That's all I said, 11 little words, 11.... 1 sentence... Yet that was enough to upset you now wasn't it... To ride on in on your hi-horse, TFA's heroic Knight , swinging your sword named "PTSucks", as if the perfect virgin named TFA was about to be devoured by some awful dragon...

1 sentence... 11 words, not even directed at you. You made a choice to reply, no one forced you, and it's not my fault you stuck your foot in your mouth. I never said anything about China being something important or that box offices revolve around China. Never even came close to saying that.

What I did was took your response to me and just looked up some information so i could give a decent response. It's not my fault you decided open your pie hole and pronounce the PT a flop in China, when it wasn't, or pronounce that a Star Wars film being in the top ten in the Chinese box office was something special, when all 3 pt films did that before TFA was ever even an Abrams wet dream...

It's not my fault you defended TFA as doing well, when people in China, who live in China, who own theaters in China, who know the Chinese market better than you ever will, were expecting bigger numbers than what it did. Showing that it underperformed, just as I said it did.

So no, I never even came close to insinuating anything about A single thing revolving around China's Box Office. All I did was respond to your flat out wrong, false, and misleading post with actual facts (and their sources) and information from people that would know more than you!

Petty? So now you wanna to resort to personal insults because you were wrong.. That's ok though, because what's really petty is putting words in people's mouths because you were wrong and have no recourse. What else is petty is responding to something that wasn't even directed to you, but, to someone else, all because in your pettiness, you can't even let one slight against TFA go undefended.

why does Bulgaria have the second largest box office market in the world, with many analysts thinking it will surpass the U.S. in three to five years like China does? Or is your hyperbole just another response to your being wrong.

And yet... You continue to want to talk about China even after suggesting that it means nothing and it's not worth talking about... All in order to defend TFA....

LMAO... So now how the PT did depends on who you ask, when you declared it a flop earlier (nice of you to move the goal posts). Can you show me some quotes from people that would actually know or are in the Chinese market to back your theory up? Or are you talking out of your ass? According to your own standard that you set for TFA, that being a top ten finish for the year in which the movie was released, than all 3 PT movies must have done well and were solid foundations for Star Wars to take hold in China, as all 3 PT movies finished top 10 in their respective years. Your standard not mine!

Movie phenomenon? Moving the goal posts yet again!

I said in my original post, which wasn't to you, that no one could ever take away what TFA has achieved at the box office, even after it gets unseated, which it will.

That however was never my point. A point that I was making to someone else, or in other words not you. A point that while I disagreed with them that nobody would remember TFA in 20 years, however agreed with what I believe was their underlying theme, that TFA holds no or has very little significance from a cultural standpoint. That point still stands that it is not a cultural phenomenon, people outside of the Star Wars fandom aren't talking about it anymore, even the fandom itself has moved on in some respects. Kids moved on! Parents moved on! It had its time, it had its glory, and now Deadpool, Captain America, Finding Dory, Secret Life of Pets, Suicide Squad has replaced it in the overall collective consciousness, and in time those will be replaced as well. As other movies will take up space in people's grey matter.

Star Wars didn't gain very much in overall collective consciousness, in the ether if you will because of TFA. That's because it is only viewed as popular entertainment now. A spoke in the cycle of mass media entertainment that spits out new blockbuster movies every few months. Your continuous flag waving of the box office only matters to those that care about box office. Most people don't care, because most people aren't emotionally invested in TFA to care about the box office, and that's because it wasn't some cultural moment. Once again, to repeat myself, it was a movie, popular entertainment, that a lot of people saw, but have now moved on. Adults, men, women, kids....I am not trying to say that TFA didn't create more fans, surely and obviously it did. But it was not some cultural phenomenon that people will be remembering and reminiscing about 10 or 20 years from now. They will remember TFA and that they liked or didn't like it, but, they aren't going to be telling their grandchildren about the first time they saw TFA in theaters.

Once again, box office only indicates popularity at that moment in time. It doesn't indicate that the movie has become engrained in the culture. Star Wars as a whole isn't a cultural phenomenon because of the box office of ANH, it's a cultural phenomenon because it has engrained itself into the collective consciousness. People who only ever saw the movies once back in the 70's and 80's , or even never at all , know lines of dialogue, characters from ANH, ESB, and possibly ROTJ, because they have seen it outside of the movies in other parts of our culture, outside of pop culture. That is simply not the case with TFA! Its influence has disappeared, and now has been replaced by other blockbuster franchises. Replaced by its own franchise as well!

Right... Because the kids and adults I see in "my own world" are so different than kids and adults in Texas, California, Florida, Ohio etc etc etc... Because in Buffalo, NY no one saw TFA, no one knows what Star Wars is.

Paying attention to and taking notice of what kind of impact TFA has had on people in my community (stores, malls, schools, workplace) is not hard to do. Paying attention to what is happening to Star Wars merchandise at national retailers is not hard to do. Extrapolating those observations outward to come to a conclusion on what I would expect to see in other communities in my country is not some crazy thing. Especially when there's nothing outstanding, nothing different, nothing that sets my community apart from any other general American community that falls into the demographics of those that saw Star Wars! I'm not trying to come up with hard numbers, percentages or statistics.

Huh? If TFA was never released, there would still be Star Wars comics, toys, video games etc etc...those things exist because of what came before TFA, not because of TFA. Avatar was an unexpected success, it caught everyone off guard, and by the time they rolled out the toys, books, comics, it was already too late. The movie fell out of the collective consciousness and they weren't able to capitalize on its success. Once again, TFA had the benefit of having the Star Wars name and legions of fans that were fans before TFA and not because of it.

And extreme interest huh? Hasbro Star Wars toys sales drop from 24% to 4% and that's extreme interest? TFA merchandise is on clearance at national retailers (not my local mom and pop store) and still not moving and that means extreme interest? Star Wars Bloodlines debuted at #5 on the the NYT Best Sellers list, only to make a pit stop at 14 before completely falling off the list two weeks later and that's extreme interest? Just last month, Aftermath debuted #9 only to be gone off the list the very next week... Extreme? No... Fan driven interest that buys it when it first comes out, and than fades? Yes! The general public isn't buying bloodlines, or aftermath, the toys, the comics hell, most fans aren't buying them either!

Oh no you don't...

Well seeing how you were the one that just couldn't help yourself in reacting to my 1 sentence on China, I will leave this ball in your court. If you continue to spread false information, I will gladly find factual information that puts puts whatever you may think you have into context as well as finding information from people that know more than you do!

 

Well according to the latest numbers Star Wars toys were huge in the first half of 2016, showing the largest growth since 1999, and is expected to remain big in the future:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/star-wars-may-propel-u-185350736.html

So, while I won't speculate on TFA's status in the long run, I think the idea that TFA fell out of our collective conciousness, is a hyperbole.

 

Sales were awesome for the first quarter, which makes sense because TFA was still in theaters for that first quarter. However, Hasbro's growth fell in the second quarter this year in part due to the slow down of Star Wars sales.

Your story looks at the year as a whole so far, while not separating the year into it's separate quarters.

http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/07/18/hasbro-drops-amid-fears-of-star-wars-sales-slowdown/

 

If you read the piece carefully it says:

"Hasbro said in July that Star Wars and Disney's Frozen were the fastest-growing businesses in the quarter ended June 26."

So, apparently Star Wars merchandise has done extremely well even in the second quarter, and is expected to be even bigger in the holiday season with the release of R1. So, this recent statement by Hasbro directly refutes your claim, that there's a slowdown of Star Wars sales. In fact they state the opposite.

There is a slowdown at Hasbro, but the numbers show, it's not at all related to Star Wars, who's sales have grown 10% in the second quarter, compared to last year:

http://www.expressnews.com/business...-decline-after-toys-aimed-at-boys-8384651.php

 

You still don't seem to understand! Fastest growing doesn't mean it is meeting expectations! Fastest growing just means it's growing, but that growth fell in the second quarter, which scared investors and caused Hasbro stock to drop, and it still hasn't recovered to this day. Saying that they are the fastest growing of the toy lines when all their toy lines growth isn't meeting expectations isn't saying much. It's like someone saying their the best cook in a bad restaurant.

The sales are boosted big time by first quarter Star Wars. Which is to be expected and i pointed to that in one of my earlier posts. Star Wars sales were always great during movie years. Hasbro relies on collectors in non movie years to keep product moving. My point still stands, Hasbro has had great year to this point, but, growth, which growth = sales, fell in the 2nd quarter and didn't meet expectations This is in part to a slow down in sales of Star Wars. That doesn't mean Star Wars toys aren't the fastest growing.

maybe you missed the part where the Hasbro CEO said:

Brian Goldner, Hasbro’s chief executive said during a call with analysts that demand for Star Wars toys and games remain “very strong”. However, he confirmed that overall Star Wars products sales are expected to be flat this year compared to last year.

Edit:

I never said it was all, I have said many times over it is in part due to a slow down in Star Wars merchandise. You can go up in my previous posts and see that.

I would hope that Star Wars toys sales were up from 2nd quarter last year (2015), seeing how there was a new movie in the first quarter of this year.

It doesn't take a stock broker to go to target, wal-mart, toys-rus and see that the aisles are clogged with what are called pegwarmers in collecting circles. These national retailers are putting things on clearance, and it still isn't moving.

 

I fail to understand nothing. Last year marked the release of the most successful Star Wars movie since 1977, so I would hardly call keeping that merchandising fire going in 2016 a failure by any means. You are now arguing, that interest in TFA and Star Wars in general is only maintained, if sales keep growing. The article I referred to earlier shows, that toy sales experienced a 17 year high last year, because of TFA, and are expected to maintain that level of success, and may surpass it this year, which is a huge achievement.

The second article I referred to, suggests Hasbro's stock price dropped, because of disappointing sales in Hasbro’s boys products, its biggest category, not because of disappointing sales of Star Wars products. You say Star Wars sales didn't meet expectations, which may be true. There were those, that expected TFA to surpass Avatar at the box office, so by that standard TFA may be a disappointment. Investers may have expected it to be bigger than it has become thusfar. However, there's a big difference between not meeting huge expectations, while still being hugely successful, and falling out of conciousness, which is what you were claiming.

 

Wow.. way to key in on one specific issue, and try to make it seem it was the basis of my whole claim that TFA has fallen out of the collective consciousness... Like none of the other stuff I pointed too isn't relevant...

Anyway, I can't see the links you are providing, they want me to subscribe. So we will go to the horses mouth...

All these news articles are taking their information from the Hasbro Earnings Call.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/tops...6-results-earnings-call-transcript/ar-BBuuuJD

In that call, the CEO told investors that they are expecting that the Star Wars brand will be flat with 2015, meaning no growth! And that is what spooked investors! That is with a new movie on the Horizon. They did 500million in sales last year and are expecting the same year. No growth for the Star Wars brand from last year.

Now think about that. New product for TFA hit in September 2015, and than through the rest of that year. It's easy to assume that a majority of that 500 million came on the heels of the movie related product, or in other words post September (Force Friday). They now have an entire full year of TFA related product, and a new movie, and they are expecting no growth! That is a sign that from this point forward, no one is really buying the TFA stuff, and that they are depending on Rogue One to pick up the slack to get them from 300 million to 500 million! If there was no Rogue One, they would actually see a less sales in Star Wars from last year! Once again, sales are expected to be flat, they are not meeting expectatins, and it certainly seems they are hoping for Rogue One to help, bring them to at least the same sales as they had for last year!

Now once again, see what he says here, Star Wars sales are up significantly from this time last year, which is a well duh moment because at this time last year there was no TFA merchandise. Notice what he says at the end though, they are expecting the same amount of total sales that they did last year. Meaning they are expecting sales to drop in comparison to the same time last year moving forward. They are hoping Rogue One will lift their sales up to meet that 500 million mark of last year. No Growth, while sales are up in comparison to this time last year, they are expecting their sales moving forward to be lower than what they were in comparison to the same time last year for the second half.

To me, this means people aren't buying the TFA product like they expected, and they are hoping Rogue One product brings them up the same level of sales of 2015. Without Rogue One, they would be in trouble. Why would they be in trouble? Because the TFA stuff isn't selling.

Furthermore, he also comments about their inventories in the Star Wars brand increasing, meaning that they have a lot of **** in their warehouses! Makes sense as I have been saying that the cap isn't moving in the stores:

So once again, when this is taken in with the other stuff I have said, it is pointing to TFA just being another movie franchise, and not some cultural shifting phenomenon.

my whole point with including the TFA toys, is that it isn't selling as they thought it would, It isn't moving like they thought it would, and they need merchandise from Rogue One, not TFa to help not see a drop in sales! That is what spooked investors and caused a sell off of Hasbro stock after the meeting!

if there was extreme interest in Star Wars because of TFA like DD wants to believe, they wouldn't need Rogue One to at least pull even with last year!

 

Well I don't see how sales dropping somewhat after the film goes out of circulation is any indication of whether TFA is a cultural phenomenon or not. I also don't agree, that TFA should maintain the same level of interest for that to be the case. Star Wars is a cultural phenomenon, and TFA is part of that. Both PT sequels failed to beat other movie franchises at the box office in the year of their release. Does this mean that Star Wars is any less of a cultural phenomenon? Is the PT just another movie franchise?

 

Yes, the PT was, because of a very special word... Competition! Something that I went round and round about with DD before. Back during the time of the OT, what helped propel it to a cultural phenomenon was that it was the first blockbuster, and not only did it resonate with people on a personal level, but, there was no other blockbusters for people to turn around and loose sight of Star Wars on. It was Star Wars and that's pretty much it. There was no ANH, than 2 months later a Marvel Franchise movie, than a Pixar franchise movie, etc etc...

As I have been arguing over and over here, there are now so many other blockbusters that come out right after one another, there is no time for the public to absorb it. In our Attention Deficit Disorder world of smart phones, on demand movies and tv shows, and blockbusters from popular franchises left and right, I highly doubt we will ever see a movie even come close to the same impact of what ANH and the OT did!

TFA to me, is just another movie, just another breeze, here and than gone. I would say the same for the PT, here and gone. The publics attentions pulled away by Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man etc etc...

 

Well, in that case we are in agreement for once, as I agree that we will probably never see another "Star Wars", and if that is our definition of cultural phenomenon, than by that definition Star Wars hasn't been a cultural phenomenon since ROTJ. It doesn't mean, that Star Wars isn't still embedded in our culture, but it will be interesting to see what happens once the generation of the 1970s and 1980s disappears.

 

It may simply be nostalgia of my childhood kicking in, I don't know, but I got a sense in 2005 that Star Wars was really all over the place with ROTS-

I never really got the same feeling with TFA- the movie seemed more like an "event" that wasn't really talked about much afterwards.

Even some younger members of my family weren't that impressed with the film ( a second cousin of mine who is only like 11 took notice that the movie was identical to ANH- kids are not dumb, despite the media's best effort to say otherwise).

 

That's nto what I am saying, and not even implying. Of course it is still embedded, but, IMO opinion, TFA didn't do much if anything to increase it. Which is why I have been making the points I have. Which is what my point about toy sales is about. If TFA resonated with kids to such a high degree (as some want to suggest), than Hasbro's sales, and their inventories would be different right now, as the demand would be higher.

Hey... wtf.. That's me!

 

Me too! So, you won't be a lonely Force ghost...

 

Damn... I was hoping for some peace and quiet in the afterlife... but with you there, I guess I will have to be...

 

I'm still assuming, I'm a good guy, but I might also just explode in a great ball of fire like Palpatine. So, you might get your peace and quiet afterall...

 

Stop being nice to each other and go back to arguing...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

No please we've had enough!

Why can't we all be positive about SW. Sure we all have issues but whatever. Just move on. Enjoy it.

 

& 500 words & countless sentences since. Mike the Minister for China strikes again. I noticed your new favorite country is under performing at the Olympics though Mike. Only 3rd on the medal table. That's for a country of over a billion. Hopeless!

You were too busy with your head buried in Chinese history Mike. I provided the relevant article in my earlier post: http://fusion.net/story/253414/star-wars-force-awakens-china/

The quote was: "The three prequel Star Wars movies were all released under the quota in the late ’90s and 2000s, but they didn’t do very well: Revenge of the Sith made just $11.7 million in box office revenue in 2005, with the previous two films falling even further behind."

That's written by a Chinese journalist in Shanghai. Sorry if you don't like that article or you disagree with it. I do note that some articles you found were more complimentary to the PT performance. The first one I found online wasn't. That's not my fault.
I'm going to end this great Chinese debate by saying this 你的想法沒有任何意義，你臭 & by posting the figures again & reiterating that TFA has finally gained a decent foothold in the Chinese market which will hopefully grow into the future.

The OT = $0
TPM = $5m (adjusted to 2015 $)
AotC = $7m (adjusted)
RotS = $11m (adjusted)
TFA = $124m

I think I agreed that no movie is a cultural phenomenon in the same league as ANH. Yet SW is a phenomenon & TFA has catapulted into back into the forefront. It was easily the most attended SW movie since 1977. More people went to cinemas & saw it than Eps 2 & 3 combined. Months later it was a record breaking smash hit in terms of disk & digital media sales. As our learned colleague DrDre quoted from an industry source: "toy sales experienced a 17 year high last year because of TFA, and are expected to maintain that level of success, and may surpass it this year".

TFA (as part of SW) is a cultural phenomenon by the standards of movies today. That's a point of view. You're welcome to disagree.

Are you plugged into the worldwide collective consciousness Mike? Like Neo in the Matrix? I thought your sphere of influence was limited to Buffalo & China.

I appreciate your passion in trying to tear down TFA Mike. From your avatar to your signature to your every post, you have a major chip on your shoulder about that movie. As if Abrams came to your house & took a dump on your front lawn. This particular discussion however is a dead end. You're entitled to say that TFA wasn't a phenomenon. There's nothing to disprove your point in any clear way. Just as there's nothing to settle the issue the other way.

Back to future content. This is a great analysis of a possible flashback scene in R1: http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016/08/rogue-one-flashback-scene

 

lol.

 

Self awareness much, DD?

Anyway... R1 still hasn't totally grabbed me. Visually, heck yes! But I'm not connecting with the characters for some reason. My two cents anyway. I'll definitely be at the theater, though!


Sent from my brain using thumbs.

 

Yeah, they could be good. I have hope but I'm not really invested in alot of the recent new SW characters. I think what has me more interested is this film takes place in the era of SW I enjoy the most. The I-VI saga. Never cared for post ROTJ stuff tbh. Also, Vader helps.

 

I think so.

TFA hit, was praised and lauded to to the rafters by critics as the best thing since sliced bread. The world went to see it.. And then, oddly, everyone has just kind of forgotten about it. Because ultimately it was a classic Abrams movie - Shiny and fast moving on the surface but ultimately incredibly shallow with no depth at all. Enjoyable for a couple of hours perhaps but largely banal and forgettable...