PT PT Discussion of future SW Content (Locked) - Discussion Moved to Saga Board

There's logically a Republic established since the good guys prevailed at the end of ROTJ. But they wanted to pretend the good guys are still the underdogs (because that's how it is in the OT and they had to pander 'the fans') even though the good guys are the big dogs again, so they created this nonsense, convoluted concept of 'the Resistance'. Resisting the opressive regime of... the Republic?!

 

mes520 that celebration poster is indeed beautiful, so nice to see the whole saga represented like that. Though its a shame that we didn't get some of the older characters (not just TLJ and Rebels) as badges. Ah well I can always crop them out

Edit: thejeditraitor Rogue One Blu-ray/DVD release date finally.

 

The Republic didn't want to fight the First Order but members of the Resistance did.

 

Yup, the Resistance wants to resist the rise of the First Order, which they view as The Empire 2.0. It's complex stuff, I know...

I guess it's more logical for a trade federation to have an army and a seat in the Galactic Senate. Was that ever explained in TPM?

 

Alexrd The rebels destroyed the second death star and decapitated the imperial regime. There is no guarantee that this made the rebels top dog in the galaxy..

It enabled the alliance to form a new democratic system of senate for systems willing or able to form a new republic. Some of those that couldn't, or wouldn't have consolidated into the first order. With nominal peace existing between the two superpowers, a Resistance group are left to fight the iniquities of the FO in the systems they control or threaten.

The new Republic is separate from the resistance. And the resistance only exists because there is "peace" due to the conditional victory acquired by the Alliance. So the resistance are the underdogs only in relation to the FO. The Republic may still be bigger than the FO. I dont see how destroying one system means that they are now underdogs. It perhaps means that a sleeping giant has been awoken by the FO's preemptive attack.

 

Yes, it was explained, though via subtext. The Repbulic is stated to be corrupt at this point, and Palpatine suggests that senators are under the influence of TF bribery. The TF are also a major power, at least on the level of the Hutts, owning planets. They have gained enough power in the corrupted senate to gain a seat. Alternatively, it's the seat for Cato Neimodia, which being the TF HQ planet would represent them in the Senate.

 

Yes, but similar explanations and back stories exist for the Resistance. It doesn't seem logical to criticise one film maker for not explicitly explaining the history of an organization, and to praise another for doing the same. I personally feel both films give enough info to the viewer to draw conclusions.

 

But we're never given any information about the organisations in TFA. The Empire is back, and seems to be identical to how it was in ROTJ, with the capability to build a superweapon stronger than the old Empire did. The Resistance is identical to the Rebellion. They fulfil the exact same purpose, and ships and designs. We're also never given any reasons that the Republic hasn't done anything to curtail the new Empire. The Republic plays so little role in the plot that they might as well not be there.

It just makes the situation basically the same as the OT. A fascist empire, lead by the Sith (and yes, Snoke and Kylo are the Sith) fighting a ragtag bunch of Rebels with no Republic around to add any politics.

 

I think TFA would have worked better, if some of the deleted scenes were included, but here's the thing. When the PT is criticized not explaining details many immediately point to books or tv series, or even interviews by Lucas to fill in the gaps. Why is TFA not extended tge same courtesy?

 

Because I don't need to point to the EU, as most of it is in the PT already. Sure, The Clone Wars might elaborate on a couple of details, but I don't need to know them to understand the PT. The background to TFA is not in TFA.

 

Really? The TF has an army. How and why? They obey Darth Sidious. Why? What's in it for them? Why would they invade Naboo? Isn't the blockade enough? Wouldn't they risk losing support? Where is all this explained in TPM?

 

The TF have an army because their rich, and are using it to get what they want, for the same reason the East India company had a navy. They obey Sidious because he's promised them Naboo, which they do indeed take control of, and would have succeeded if not for Padme's impulsiveness.

The blockade doesn't give them control of the planet, it's resources, while the invasion does. Sidious is helping them by bogging down the Senate to prevent an investigation, as we see with Valorum's indecisiveness. Once the treaty is signed, they legally own Naboo, so they just need to get it done before the Senate gets it's act together.

 

Where in TPM does Sidious promise the TF Naboo? Where is it stated, that the TF wants Naboo for it's resources? All we know is, that there is a trade dispute and a blockade, and then an invasion for some unexplained reason, which appears to be to Sidious advancement. Sidious wants to destabilize the Republic, but why the TF would go along with it is not properly explained in the film. They obey Sidious, just because he's scary, I guess.

 

There's no evidence of that in the movie.

Nominal peace? Two superpowers? Source?

No, it isn't:

"With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE."

If there's peace due to the Alliance's victory, what's the point of a resistance?

Why? They are backed by and part of the Republic. They aren't the underdogs.

Then I'm right. They aren't the underdogs.

A resistance, like a rebel alliance, implies being the underdog. And they pretend to be the underdogs in the movie.

The fact that there is a FO should have awoken that giant.

 

Then why didn't the Allies try to stop Germany earlier before WWII?
Maybe Leia had the support of some members of the military but not the full support of the Republic.
Some FO sympathizers could have blocked full support.
Some people just want the status quo

 

Well lets hope she has the full support of the New Republic's military in TLJ, considering what happened to Hosnian Prime

 

Alexrd

The two named societies in the Star Wars Galaxy are the New Republic and the First Order. The latter of which is said to have risen from the ashes of the Empire. The implication is clear and not convoluted at all.

The existence of systems not willing or able to participate in the new republic but instead part of the First Order is self explanatory.

The lack of an official war between the two named societies means that there is at least nominal peace, by definition. The existence of a Resistance to the FO proves that it is only a nominal peace.

Support and separate are two distinct concepts. I don't see how that's confusing. You can support an ex wife while being separated from them.

The point of the resistance is that the new Republic is unwilling to officially pursue a total victory and the liberation of systems under the First Order, but some members secretly support the proxy war waged by the resistance. Otherwise there would not be two separate entities.with one secretly supporting the other. The resistance meanwhile seek the official commitment of the Republic to intervene.

It is irrelevant that the Republic are not underdogs. They and their fleet are not engaged with the FO. The resistance are. And while they receive only limited, covert support from the Republic, they remain underdogs to the FO.

If you were the undemocratic leader of the new republic then what you think the Republic should do would get done. While they are a democratic society., the Republic will do what it's members elect they should do. Including maintain peace between itself and the remnants of the old imperial network outwith the new republic.

 

What kind of comparison is that? The alliance was formed after Germany broke a "peace" agreement.

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know that and the movie didn't bother to explain, which was my point. As it is, it doesn't make sense that with the establishment of the Republic they are backing a mere resistance against a faction like the First Order as portrayed in the movie. But that's probably the least of its problems.

That's baseless speculation.

 

I think he's referring to the Allies of WWI. Germany militarized despite agreements, which stated they were not allowed to, amongst other things.

 

Even with all the current information from the EU, the political/strategic situation of TFA is extremely vague. But that's fine, IMO.. Room to explore and expand (hopefully). Yet it seems blatantly obvious to me that JJ went out of his way to recreate an underdog rebels vs giant evil empire scenario and didn't concern himself about justifying the continuity logic of that situation. I think he left that mess to others. It felt lazy, IMO. But perhaps that adds to "the great mystery" of making SW entertaining to explore and understand. I would agree that TPM left a lot of questions open about what was going on in a political/strategic sense in the galaxy - and the movies and lore that followed were (for me) a super fun way of exploring those questions. So there's a ton of potential still left in the ST. But the next movies will have to treat the lore and the galaxy as more than just an after-thought backdrop for "likable characters".

 

I feel I must ammend my thoughts from the other day.

Spoiler

The interlude from Empire's End about Jar Jar is actually bitter sweet. I had not read the full story of it, nor did the Facebook page who shared it post the full story. If I had been able read the whole the story the other day, I would have realized how smart and, dare I say, emotional it was.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk. Please ignore all typos.

 

TPM made the political situation very explicit.

 

^This...yes.

You CAN make rational storyline sense out of TFA, I think. That is probably not the reason why many people who are fans of the entire saga as constructed by GL dislike elements of TFA

My opinion is (and I'm not saying this is fact....just a feeling I get) that the GL treatments were abandoned pretty quickly by Disney as soon as the sale was finalized. The Arndt story was jettisoned too at some point because someone was not happy with IT'S direction and Abrams was brought on board. He promised that he would check all the mandatory checkboxes to get people (especially disgruntled PT haters) "back on board" with SW, and THEN the story was written to fit all the requirements.

A complete ass-backwards way to continue the story of the SW saga as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention passive-aggressive disrespect to GL himself.

Was it successful financially....yup. Did, many people like the movie.....yup. Is it a good way to write a story......that is the main debate, I guess. I fall on the no side of that.

 

That is not a fact. In fact it's simply not true. Arndt was working to the remit given to him by Lucasfilm. He was unable to produce a screenplay that satisfied everybody in half the normal time he usually spends, as was hoped by all parties. And so Kasdan and Abrams took it from there.


One of the things that Arndt instigated was the deferral of Luke's reintroduction proper until episode VIII. Something that disappointed Abrams to no end when he inherited the project, but ultimately recognised was necessary in order for the new characters to emerge in their own right. Which was the main objective right from the beginning.

Arndt was involved with note giving and fine tuning the film in post-production. Including holding back Leia's appearance till midway through the movie. Which wouldn't make sense if he'd been thrown off the film for going in the wrong direction.