PT PT Forum - TFA: Discussing the FILM (characters, plotlines) - Spoilers Allowed

^ This x 10,000

 

Well I have been on other forums and debating all this and I just get box office results thrown at me as well as some "majority" BS as well. To me none of that really changes the facts that I presented. Rey being a Mary Sue? I get met with "you are a misogynist" and other garbage. I don't care for the character of Finn and I get called a racist. So you will have to excuse me if I don't deal with such things in a nice manner. Because I am none of those accusations. But back to the point, I really don't care what some "majority" of fans think. I base all my criticism on what is shown on the screen. I care only for MY opinion. I don't care if some "majority" has an opinion counter to my own. So fan polls, awards box office totals really mean jack **** to me.

So as long as I keep getting weak *** excuses, I will continue to do what I need to do and say what I got to say.

 

& you should keep it up. Your TFA thoughts are always entertaining

 

Something must be true because it is widely believed is a Appeal to Popularity, a logic fallacy, the number of people holding a view has zero bearing if it is true or false. Then there is also the Asch phenomenon where individuals will conform to the majority view or perceived majority rule, even if it goes against their personnel beliefs, which marketers are fully aware of and use. Hell, I learned about Asch in a marketing course.

Rey is a Mary Sue, and I believe an attempt to also cash in on the popularity of The Hunger Games as it has several knock offs, which is probably why Rouge One is following a similar path.

 

MS=BS

 

It's not a matter of true or false. The point is, what is the goal of the movie? Why does it exist? I can tell you it's not to cure cancer. It's not some profound cause. It's to entertain. The movie is literally a piece of popular entertainment, just as ANH was & the other SW movies were. So of course audience opinion matters. It's not just about asses in seats either. As Mark Hamill said, alot of movies like the Transformers' films get huge b.o returns but don't seem to be highly thought of. Films that are wildly popular in terms of viewership AND receive very high ratings from fans & the public are the ultimate success when it comes to these types of films. And the best that can be hoped for is somewhere around 80-90% approval, which TFA achieved. 100% popularity is impossible.

A different example, there are alot of people who think The Dark Knight is garbage. Looking at IMDb for example, we see that over 25,000 people rated it 1/10: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/
If you got all of those people into an internet forum & you read all of the commentary you'd think that it was one of the worst movies ever made. Yet the fact is the average rating for it is 9/10. The reviews were about the same & it won a host of awards. It was a smash hit movie by every measure. It deserves its status a great film within its genre. Ratings, reviews & polls don't prove anything definitively but they do matter. It's the only way we can gauge general opinion. Doesn't mean those 25,000 people are "wrong" about TDK but we can also say for a fact that it's generally considered to be a great film.

 

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Sleeping Beauty, and Mary Poppins are beloved Disney films. They are widely known throughout the Earth as masterpieces.
There are those that hate them, sure. They are a relatively small group. It's far more likely that a lot of people are indifferent towards them, rather than hating them. Most people, who care, love those films. That is because they are excellent films.

Or, for example:
The Wizard of Oz
Mutiny on the Bounty
Modern Times
High Noon
Casablanca
Citizen Kane
On the Waterfront
From Here to Eternity
Dr. Strangelove
Lawrence of Arabia
North By Northwest
The Godfather
Jaws
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Star Wars
Alien

I'm sure there are several human beings that exist on the Earth that hate all of these films and could fill endless volumes with scathing analysis and degrading commentary.
The fact remains that the vast majority of human beings who have had the privilege and opportunity to view these films have deemed them masterpieces. Or at least they thought they were "good."

I'm not comparing TFA or RotS, for that matter, to the films I mentioned above. Just pointing out that near universal adoration and respect, regardless of box office receipts, does have meaning.

Meaning for the many, not the few.

 

How so? Her rushed character development and her becoming pretty much a jedi master in the final act pretty proves that she is indeed a Mary Sue. Now I like the idea of Rey as a character and her introduction scene was beautifully done but after that it went Mary Sueing downhill.

 

They do have meaning dags. That much is true. But that can't, and I repeat, cannot be used to take down other peoples opinions and be used to justify other means(not saying you do it). They can't be used as 100% merit.

It's just...Very unfair for the other sides of the people who think otherwise.

 

I like most of those films except Dr Strangelove, I find it unfunny and ultra silly. Kubrick was a A-hole to his actors, lying to them saying the film was going to be a drama and that they were playing heros.
I agree with above than Rey was just too rushed and undeveloped.

 

Prisic Duskleap
I find the ms term derogatory and rife with hypocritical double standards. But it's ok, we just agree to disagree. No big deal. I'm glad you liked Rey's one exposition quarter portion at least.

Ezon Pin
As you mentioned, I'm not trying to "take down others opinions."
For example, I know professional musicians who find Mozart's music "boring." That's fine. I'm sure some of the hoi polloi music audience might agree. It's a fact, however, that his accomplishments during his short life are truly astonishing. Many experts and fans rank him as one of the greatest composers in the history of music. I've studied and listened to his music, and I agree. I guess it's nether here nor there. I feel we could go on like this endlessly.

Slicer87
Sellers plays three comedic roles in Dr. Strangelove and he was obviously aware that it was a comedy. The initial concept was serious, but Kubrick realized the subject matter was too heavy and depressing and opted for the dark comedy approach. G. C. Scott was also aware of this approach as was S. Pickens and J. E. Jones. It is reported that Kubrick himself ruined some takes from laughing so hard.
It's fine if you dislike the film, but why resort to calling names?

Coming full circle, Kubrick is widely regarded as one the greatest directors in history. I'm sure there are millions of people who hate his movies and maybe even hate him, but the brilliance of his film making, pertaining to every aspect of the craft, is undeniable and factual. Ask Lucas, Spielberg and Scorsese, for example.

 

No offense but how is it derogatory? I believe its a valid criticism of her character. I understand some ppl were happy with her development and that is fine too each their own but personally I thought Rey had the worst character development in the saga so far. Hopefully EP8 can correct this.

 

The reason MS is not a nice term is that it's use is almost always to downgrade or downright bash a character. The term has quite often been used when talking about bad fan fic.
Which is another not so nice term.
Fan fic is almost byword for "awful and terrible writing."

Take the phrase "Hack writer" nowadays it is used in a not very nice way. Often meaning poor, bad or unimaginative writing. The term didn't mean that originally, then it was someone who could produce to order. Hackney meant a horse that was easy to ride and was available to hire.
It didn't have to mean "Bad" or "Poor".

Last example, if one compares a film to either Transformers or Twilight, very often that comparison isn't favorable. Those films made money yes but are also byword for bad or terrible movies.
Same with comparing a films BO with Gigli, Ishtar or Waterworld. All are movies that have the reputation of BO bombs.

About Rey, to me, if some see Rey as overpowered and too good at everything, I can see where they are coming from.
But if some call Rey a MS but won't call Anakin in TPM a GS, then I think there is a double standard here.
Take Anakin and put him on our world and imagine that a nine year old kid builds his own race car and wins the Indy 500. Wouldn't this kid seem way to good at what he does?
Nine year old Anakin is an ace racer, a tech wiz, I mean he builds a protocol droid, a scanner and a very fast racer in his spare time. And all from parts he scavenged from Watto.
He is also very nice, brave, helpful, generous, kind, compassionate.
Plus Son of God.
When people had problems with Anakin blowing up the TF ship, some defended it and said "Anakin is born of the Force, he is an instrument of the Force and the Force works through him and thus he can blow up the ship."
So why can't this apply to Rey?

Lastly, I would disagree about Rey's character development. How much did Obi-Wan as a character grow and change in TPM alone? He was the obedient pupil for much of the film. He changed his mind on Anakin but if that was a genuine change or just him honoring his Master's dying wish.
How well developed was his character? We know nothing about his past, if he has some fears or worries. What his desires are. He wants to be a Jedi obviously but was that a genuine desire or just because he had been there since birth?

I saw quite a bit of Rey's character. She is self sufficient, she pretty much had to be or she'll be a slave or dead. She is good a tech stuff and piloting. She misses her family terribly and wants to belong. But she also has feeling of abandonment and hesitates to commit. When Finn leaves, she seemed almost hurt and wanted to know why? When presented with the vision, she freaked out and ran away. Quite understandable.
When Finn came back for her, that was a huge thing for her. She was used to people not coming back and now Finn did.
She got scared several times and had to swallow her fear more than once.

Bye for now
The Guarding Dark

 

^ Spot on. Then there's Luke. He was already an unusually skillful pilot. Then he receives the briefest bit of instruction from Ben on the Falcon. He's practicing with a saber & Ben lowers the visor. After just one failed attempt at blocking the laser from the remote he then skilfully blocks the next two! He can immediately deflect laser bolts with a lightsaber without vision and with almost no training! I think people overlook how incredible that is. He then flies an X-Wing in space for the first time in his life & proceeds to take out a host of Imperial fighters. Then he pulls off a one in a million shot to destroy the Death Star without targeting sensors. From there it's strongly implied that he receives no further training until Dagobah. Yet he can use telekinesis to draw his lightsaber from the snow on Hoth. While hanging upside down semi-conscious. Not bad.

To varying degrees Luke, Anakin & Rey are all a MS/GS. That's what the Force does. It gives people extraordinary super-human abilities. All of this would only be questionable if they weren't strong with the Force.

 

Do you....Not know what MS means?

 

This is a tiresome circle.

The only difference for me is that - lets forget the MS thing, because yeah the force thing - but there is just a little to much left out of TFA to feel satisfactory - it is ALL mystery.

Anakin is immediately identified as been literally off the charts with whatever the force is. Luke we know is the son of a Jedi, and OK has little but some training. With Rey - who actually I really like - I just feel just another bone needed to have been thrown. That's all. Everything about who what how is speculation with Rey.

If that's what they wanted - well that's what we got. There is no point griping about it, but just one piece of the puzzle would have made a lot of difference to me.

 

When it comes to criticisms of characters its all in the context and how it is presented. I have seen many valid critiques of Rey's character being a MS and its not due to ppl just wanting to hate or degrade her character. In fact most of the criticisms from the film I have seen is Rey's very poor character development so its not ppl making up stuff or hating to hate. And I also have to call BS on anyone that has to bring up Anakin/Luke to defend Rey.

Let's take a look at Anakin/Luke from their very first film and compare it to Rey:

Anakin-TPM: We meet Anakin on Tattoine as a slave boy who while he has the child like innocence he clearly hates being a slave and it has had its effect on him this especially clear when he responds to Padme "I'm a person and my name is ANAKIN!!!".It is explained by Watto that Anakin has failed to win the pod race many times and when he does finally win later in the film its only by pure luck as he almost failed again many times throughout the race. Also more importantly we see Anakin being mentored by Qui-Gon(though I do concede it is very brief but its more than we got with Rey). We understand Anakins situations, his relationship with his mom, the way he is able to build and fix things. TPM took its time to flesh out Anakin while TFA didn't with Rey.

Luke-ANH: Now with Luke we get even more proper character development. You see him bond with a Jedi master with Obi Wan. We see Obi Wan train him and explain the force. We also see that Luke would've died many times if Obi Wan wasn't there to save him. Luke is guided and mentored by Obi-Wan through most of the film. He didn't pull force powers out of his ass. We see him even doubt himself and his skills and at times he comes across lil whiny as well.

With Rey despite being on a harsh planet she is entirely too optimistic and self sufficient. She also makes it clear many times how self sufficient she is when Finn trys to help her escape the first order when she proclaims "Quit talking my hand" and then Finn goes to ask her like a dummy if she is ok when she clearly was. She is presented as to much of a natural leader, everyone automatically likes her, the little flaws she shows the film doesn't even bother to explore more, the worst part of her character IMO is her discovery of the force and her beating a trained force user. I can overlook some of the other flaws but her fight scene with Ren was too much. She should've lost just like Luke lost when he first faced Vader. The film rushed her development too fast for me to empathize with her character.

Now I understand not many will see things this way which is fine too each their own. I just don't think the MS criticism should be shut down as "derogatory" because it is a very valid criticism. Too further understand what is a MS and why Rey is one check out this video:

 

$$$$$

 

This is the ironic thing; The term was created by a female.....




While i still think it's misused a lot, man, thats some irony right there.

 

As I've said, the term MS is NOT a neutral term, it is often used in a negative way.
Same with "Hack writer" or "Cardboard cutout character." or "1-dimensional character".
Or calling acting "Hammy", a romance like "Something from a Harlequin Novel." or "Cheesy".
These terms have a negative stigma attached and are most often used in that way.

How much difference is there between an article titled, "Why JJ is a Hack writer." and one titled "Why JJ is a Crap writer."
To me, not much.

And if you don't think Anakin in TPM can be made to fit a GS then I say that is a double standard.

First, while I can see that Anakin doesn't like being a slave, I would disagree that he hates it.
He doesn't show anywhere near that strong an emotion about it.
His life on Tatooine, all things considered, is very nice. He doesn't work very hard, his master is greedy but otherwise kind and considerate. He has loads of spare time, he and his mother live in a nice house, he has his own room with lots of stuff in it. He gets to spend time on things he loves doing. For living as a slave, I'd say that this paints a very rosy picture of slavery.
Something I've noticed when discussing why the Jedi/Padme left Shmi to rot as a slave for ten years.
More than one person said that Shmi lived a good life as Watto's slave and he treated her well so no need to help her in any way. So Lucas didn't show slavery is a very harsh light. Probably he felt that doing that would have made the film too dark and grim.

Second, him not winning. The primary reason for that is that Sebulba cheats. The race we see shows that very clearly and Anakin even says as much on why he lost before. Plus, as was said, Sebulba always wins. Also, how many of the racers died? Quite a few it seemed to me. The fatality rate was quite high, say 30-40%. Looking at that, the fact that Anakin raced before and lived to race again is quite an achievement.
And again, he is NINE. He not only builds his own pod but also wins. Again, if a nine year kid would build his own F1 car and win a prestige race here on our world, that would be quite something.

That a nine year old would have amassed enough tech knowledge to build all the things he builds is far beyond normal. And he is an ace racer and he is also a slave so he does all this in his spare time.

He gets inside a ship that he doesn't know what any of the control are and yet very soon he is able to fly and fly well and blow up the big enemy ship. This to you is not like a GS?

To me, TPM didn't really develop Anakin's character all that much. Instead he was given a lot of things to be. Basically he is a cute wonder kid that is great at a lot of things and saves the day at the end. More specifically, he is in no particular order, love struck, a builder of things, an ace racer, a mommas boy, a tech wiz and Son of God. To me, he was made into too many things at once and this didn't give us time to get to know him. Plus the poor acting didn't help.

Rey is introduced much earlier than Anakin in TPM and she is given more to do and overall her character is way more developed than Anakin in TPM. At least to me. And the actor does a better job of showing the character and make the audience connect with her. Again in my opinion.

Luke is given a grand total of ONE lesson. In a weapon he has never used before and how much experience has Luke with melee weapons? He has a rifle so he would know how to shoot.
Rey has a staff and since her world is harsh, she would have plenty of experience with it.
And in ESB he pulls a Force pull out of his ass. He has no training with that move and did he know about it? Yet he does it.
Also, given the PT, Jedi training takes well over ten years, maybe even 20. And Luke does it in what, a few months? He has what seems like a few weeks of training with Yoda then he is alone for a few months at most and that is enough knowledge to become a Jedi. So he trains at least ten times faster than the chosen one himself.

[/QUOTE]

The fact that she lives on a harsh world is kind of why she is self sufficient. Jakku offers no favors and does not forgive weakness. It is a world were only the strong, cunning or cruel survive. A weak or defenseless person would have been killed or taken as a slave in short order.
Rey MUST be able to look out for herself or she would not last long. Unkar Plutt maybe took care of her for some time, hence why she knows the MF and has worked inside it. But the film makes it clear that she has been alone for a while. So she would be challenged at times and since no law of any kind exists there, she has to fight herself. Hence why she is a capable fighter.
She has piloting experience, she says as much. We see her working with tech stuff and she is quite good at it. How long has she been on Jakku? She looks to be over 20 years old and given the flashback, it seems that she has been there for at least ten years.
So she has more experience than Anakin in piloting and fixing stuff, so why is it strange that she is very good at it?

She does have a kind and caring side. That she turned down something like a years' worth of rations for a droid she barely knows is a bit of a stretch. I would have liked that she got suspicious, why would Unkar Plutt pay so much for a simple droid? But it is serviceable.
Her rejecting help from Finn fits her character, she is used to look after herself and if people offer favors it would most likely be with an agenda in mind given Jakku.
But she lets down her guard with Finn and lets him in. She does something similar with Han. She was excited at his offer but her past chained her to Jakku. She was afraid to commit, to let go.

Lastly, about "lessons" Anakin in TPM had tapped into the Force before Qui-Gon got there. Hence why is he is the ONLY human that can pod race. If you want to call his talks with Qui-Gon "lessons" than I can call Rey's Force vision and message from Obi-Wan a "lesson". Yes from Obi-Wan. He calls her by name and at the end he uses a similar phrase as with Luke, "These are your first steps."
Rey also is able to look inside Kylo's mind and get knowledge from it. So that is another "lesson".

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Are you serious? He's accepted it as his reality because there isn't much anything he can do about it but that doesn't like it. Much like Rey has accepted her staying on Jakku. I guess she loves it there?

You might recall the line about how he is a person? How he is trying to find the explosive implant inside him? How he dreams of being a Jedi and freeing all the slaves? How crushed he is leaving his mother in slavery?

Rey is also having a wonderful time on Jakku. She got her own speeder, her own home with lots of stuff in it. It's all very rosy on Jakku. I mean it's clearly far easier than Anakin who wouldn't have lasted so long if he couldn't fix things, race and do the work that basically makes things so great for Watto. Apparently in Rey's case on Jakku a 5 year old virtually all alone can survive there with little difficulty.

I wish these people would notice the story of the movie. This idea that the Jedi and Padme "left" Shmi is ridiculous.

Yeah she had a great time ahead without Anakin!!!

Not at all. He is a slave racer for Watto.

I might as well say:

"To me, TFA didn't really develop Rey's character all that much. Instead she was given a lot of things to be. Basically she is a hot girl that is great at a lot of things and saves the day at the end. More specifically, she is in no particular order, love struck, a builder of things, an ace racer,a familys girl, a tech wiz and Daughter of God. To me, she was made into too many things at once and this didn't give us time to get to know her. Plus the poor acting didn't help"

Rey obviously gets a different focus in TFA as she is the protagonist as well as one of the two main characters of TFA while Anakin is the protagonist but not the main character of TPM. He is simply not old enough or in a position to make the kinds of choices Rey can. That is the difference between 9 and 19. Still though what is happening for both of them is that the pull of family is a factor trying to keep them in their poor conditions. Rey doesn't want to leave for fear of not being there when her family returns while Anakin wants to leave but has fear of leaving his mother behind. Both have dreams/visions concerning the Jedi, both have contact with Obi-Wan and Yoda (and Rey with Anakin himself).

The thing I find odd about the way they used Rey was that they did the "old-fashioned" thing that never really happened in the same way to either Anakin or Luke. She gets overpowered by a man who carries her off and then get's strapped down and mind "probed" by Kylo Ren.

I just watched TPM again last night and the performance that Lucas got out of Jake Lloyd (who was only 8 at the time of shooting) is quite amazing considering the complexities involved in the character.

One of the rules of SF and fantasy fans seems to be give the young boys a hard time but the hot girls get a pass.

 

Man, I feel like sort of just saying this here: so they shut down the Cave thread in the TFA forum that included people's criticisms of the film. It was actually one of the most illuminating threads on this forum, and a lot of in-depth conversations happened there regarding character, plot, and other things integral to the film. It's honestly the only place (perhaps aside from this thread) that had such an ongoing and rewarding discussion of the film on here. I don't mean to question the mods' decision, as it is their right to shut down what they want, but man it sure is disappointing they shut it down. I can't help but feel that was a serious mistake.

 

Yeah, one could tell that half the people in the Cave were there to rant, but the other half had well-argued criticisms that they could have posted in other threads without a problem and that weren't any worse than some of the criticisms of the PT posted on both this forum and the Saga In-Depth forum, they just brought those criticisms to the cave because they didn't want to rain on the parade of TFA fans outside of that thread. It means that there'll now be a group who will just keep quiet about their criticisms about TFA when they might actually have some illuminating opinions.

 

Agreed.

I posted this over in the Saga Films section, but I feel like I articulated it well enough to drop it here as well. It regards Trevorrow's selection as Episode IX's director first and foremost, but it also ties in Abrams and Johnson. Much of what I said here can, by some degree, be applied to The Force Awakens.
----

I think I know why they brought him on for Episode IX. That episode will likely be a spectacle film. Judging from Jurassic World, Trevorrow is a spectacle filmmaker. The Disney team knows that he can shoot spectacles. I will also give credit to the team of Jurassic World -- they were 'smarter than the script,' as it were, and knew how to downplay its more dumb moments and focus on spectacle. And that mostly worked -- I enjoyed the film. But, translating this to Star Wars creates serious issues.

Despite Star Wars' reputation for being full of spectacle, the films have actually always been extremely heavy on narrative, both on plot, but also on character and thematic material. This has been the core of the series. Rather than distract from the plot, the films have (sometimes at the expense of certain fans) focused more on narrative than on spectacle, though they contain some true moments of spectacle power. This is generally derived from the strong narrative presented in the films.

And this presents an issue with Trevorrow. We know he can put spectacle over story, and he can do that reasonably well. We know he can shoot a spectacle film. That's alright, the Jurassic franchise is a spectacle franchise -- one big contrivance just to see dinosaurs chasing humans. But Star Wars is not that. It is not one big contrivance to see lightsabers smacking each other, or spaceships fighting each other, or (despite any popular notions) selling toys. Star Wars, at its heart, has been about theme and story. And the fact that Trevorrow can plunge on to create spectacles, while glossing over scripts that have glaring issues and thematic emptiness, is not good for Star Wars. It may be good for shooting a spectacle. He can shoot the climactic battles just fine. It will be exciting and serviceable. But the focus needs to be on story, because that's where the heart is. Is Trevorrow the man for that job?

In fact, if I had to point out a similarity between all three saga directors Disney has chosen, I would say they are unified by their experience with incoherent plots. All three directors' filmographies are filled with films that succeed despite the plot, not because of it. This should not endear us with confidence. As director of a film, you are in charge of the production. Writers' works are routinely changed or worked around the director's tastes and style after they are written; people writing in Hollywood are accustomed to this sort of behavior. Therefore it is the director's responsibility to create a story and plot that works well, makes sense, hangs together in the end. One that has thematic power. All three of these filmmakers have been strongly criticized for their lack of strong scripts, and I can't think that that's because they have all been unlucky. I think Disney's looking for a very particular kind of director, one that appeals to a mass audience, that can shoot spectacle, and that won't 'say too much' with the film to be uncool. All three fit the bill on this point nicely. Are they fine directors? Yeah, they are fine. Are they great or very original? No, they are not.

Knowing on top of this that Trevorrow's appointment was also due to his friendship with Kathleen Kennedy raises some eyebrows. The problems with all three of these directors' cinematographic history are not problems that can be saved by a better DP. Nor can they be saved by shooting on film, or shooting practical, or shooting with talented actors. They are problems that are fundamental to their type of moviemaking, likely an outgrowth of who they are as people, and one can only hope that by the time Episode VIII and Episode IX roll around, Johnson and Trevorrow will have done some serious directorial growing.
----

It would be unfortunate, I think, if this franchise did descend to the level of spectacle franchise (Sadly, as Star Trek has, and we know who kickstarted that. If something like Star Trek can descend to that level, something like Star Wars most definitely can.). What a sad death for the uniqueness of this saga. We can only hope that the current course is immediately reversed and continued faithfully in the spirit of the other films. But these selections in directors is not one that inspires me with confidence.

 

And the most thing that throws me over the edge is that the problem weren't the haters....Or the people that had calm and valid opinions anyone really..

It was people breaking the rules by going into the cave because the other thread was shut down. Now, we have a criticism thread of course(in which I will there post soon) but it's a shame that the cave was shutdown. There was valuable viewpoints....

And it was like a social thread-esque there. We didn't succumb to hate 100%, we kinda had fun..