PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute

Perhaps I am being unclear, I DO think that the jedi's vision is clouded and that is why they can not sense Palpatine, why they were suprised by several events and so on.
But what I do react against is this "clouded" excuse when it comes to every misstake the jedi makes. Some have used this clouding to explain away all the misstakes and dumb choices the jedi makes in the PT but I do not buy it. They seem to say that the jedi rely on the Force telling them everything and when it does not the jedi haven't got a clue.
I do not buy this, I DO think that the jedi use the Force along with their own intelect but my problem with the PT is that the jedi sometimes seem a bit TOO slow.
To me this clouding does not explain why the jedi can apparently not see that there are many things wrong with the clone army or why they seem to prefer to sit on their behinds when bad things happen.

Yes, the jedi did not have much choice to use the army but I would have liked to see them make some kind of comment about the many mysteries around it and that they will look into it. Then in RotS they have not got solid evidence but they have started to suspect Palpatine and that is why they are wary of him. Also when Mace learns that Palpatine is a Sith he should have figured out that the whole clone war is fake and that a Sith now controlls a large army that will do whatever he says. He does not have to know about order 66 since he already is awar that the clones will follow any order given by the chancellor. So Mace SHOULD have warned the other jedi that the army could turn on them at any minute.
Also the clone army plot is not handled very well in the films, the jedi get a staggering amount of clues that things do not add up with the clone army but they often never comment on them and make no apparent effort to find out more. AotC ends with severall questions around it, like who actually ordered it? Was it Sifo-Dyas despite Obi-Wans claim that he was dead when it happened? But in RotS the issue is simply dropped.

Firstly it did not seem like planetary invasions are things that happen every week in the republic. If it did then one will ask the question, "why doesn't the republic have an amry?" If attacks on planets are common then it makes no sense for the republic not to have the means to defend itself or it's members.
Second we never heard of anything else going on, the senate's most important agenda seemd to be the taxation of trade routes and the TF's blockade. Third we see a room full of Jedi masters that apparently hava lots of spare time, it did not seem like there was anything that stopped Mace and 3

 

Well, I have it already posted on prequels forum, but then I found that - as regarding issue of ambiguity in SW saga - it fits this thread, I dared to insert it here:

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It is quite widely accepted that in SW there are many references to Eastern philosophy. One of the most important concepts in Asian culture is combination of so called yin and yang (two opposing and, at the same time, complementary aspects of any phenomenon, mutual correlations creating unity of oppositions). At the same time in prequels there is quite strong emphasize on so-called balance of the Force.

And now, on the other hand, it seems that all Jedi-Sith duels in SW remain unsettled in way, in all cases each side loses and wins at the same time.
1. TPM - Maul is destroyed, but also Qui-Gon is killed, so both - Jedi and Sith - are defeated.
2. AOTC - Yoda is able to overthrow Dooku, but at the same time he has to rescue Obi and Ani, letting his enemy to escape. So again, in fact nobody wins this time.
3. ROTS - Mace beats Palpy, but because of Anakin's betrayal, he is finally killed. Ambiguous result again.
In Emperor-Yoda confrontation it is difficul to say, who wins. Apparently Yoda is not able to destroy Sidious, but on the other hand - he survives and manages to escape. Besides, in fact at the end of this duel they both fall simultaneously, so the fight remains inconclusive.
Obi-wan managed to hurt Anakin, but finally he wasn't able to destroy him, leaving him to burn on the bank of lava river and thus letting him - although probably not intenionally - to survive. As a result nobody wins decisively and both sides are ready to fight again.
4. ANH - Vader wins killing Obi-wan, but he loses as it turns out, that Obi already knows how to unite with Force after death.
5. ESB - On Bespin Luke is beaten by Vader, looses his hand and has to accept terrible truth, but he is able to reject Sith temptation and to escape from his dark father .
6. ROTJ - Jedi apprentice Luke is defeated and humiliated by Sith master Palpatine, but evil Emperor is being destroyed by former Jedi Anakin Skywalker.

So as a result, it seems that through the whole saga Lucas somehow managed to make his duels more subtle and complex than just good wins/bad loses or simply opposite, but rather serving as representation of Force as unity of complementary oppositions.
If we also remember about the fact that the wisest Jedi - Yoda and Obi-wan remain powerless - and Sith Emperor is finally killed by a Jedi renegate and the main villain - Anakin/Vader bringing finally balance and uniting in himself both aspects of Force - it turns out, that SW saga has always been more ambiguous that in seems at the first look.

Does it make any sense?

 

One more thing.
It seems that the same ambiguity implied in whole Saga find its representation also in the sequences of trilogies titles, which are at the same time parallel AND opposite (from a certain point of view ):
The Phantom Menace vs. A New Hope (abstract value, but negative vs. positive)
Attack of the clones vs. The Empire Strikes Back (attack of Republic vs. Empire forces, although in each case they are the same forces, but under different label)
Revenge of the Sith vs. Return of the Jedi (reaction of ancient Order, but again positive vs. negative).

And only after cuch repetition combined with inversion the circle is complete.

Moreover, these trilogies may be also compared to Yin and Yang in a way (unity of white half with black point and black half with white point), as the PT tells the story, how Jedi were paradoxically destroyed by The Chosen One, while OT represents story of restoration of Jedi Order thanks to Dark Sith Lord Vader. Isn't it ambiguous?

 

The problem is that what we are shown in the PT is so incredibly different from the way things are described in the OT, that the PT essentially undermines the OT. Instead of a wise leader, the OT's Obi-Wan becomes a demented old coot, who tries to resurrect an extinct order that he remembers as much better than it actually was.

There's nothing wrong with the good guys losing because they made mistakes. The problem occurs when you get to the OT and those same good guys never come to terms with and learn from those mistakes. In the OT, Yoda and Obi-Wan paint a picture of a wonderful Jedi order that was brought down only because Obi-Wan was reckless in wanting to train Anakin himself and failed. But in the PT, Obi-Wan does a damn fine job as Anakin's mentor, while the rest of the Jedi order screws things up (particularly Mr. Mace "Being a jerk to the most powerful Jedi in the order will NEVER come back to bite me on the ass" Windu). Obi-Wan says Anakin was 'seduced' by the Dark Side, but in the PT he slaughters an entire village without a bit of prodding from ANY of the dark-siders.

I don't think this is so. "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic... before the dark times; before the Empire..... ..... Now the Jedi are all but extinct" - this is all the 'remembering' that goes on in the OT about the Jedi Order - how is any of that contradicted by the PT? It just plainly isn't.

While Kenobi accepts responsibility for Anakin's subversion to the dark side in ROTJ (let's face it, what kind of mentor wouldn't shoulder the blame if their kid messed up), this is not the same as both Yoda and Kenobi 'painting a picture' it was Kenobi's poor mentoring that brought down the jedi. In TPM, Anakin is rejected as a padawan by the Jedi Order. If Kenobi doesn't train him, no-one will. If Anakin doesn't ever become a Jedi, does this mean the Jedi don't fall? The shroud of the dark side falls whilst Anakin is still a Padawan, and Palpatine will have been working up to this since way before Anakin was even born. And if you want to believe the idea that Anakin was in some way created by Plageius or Palpatine, then surely they would have recruited him at some point anyway. But in no way do Yoda and Ben put the collapse of the Jedi solely at the hands of Anakin/Vader anyway.

Palpatine is only revealed as a Sith because he tells Anakin. Even if Anakin's never taken on by the Jedi and is out of the picture he (we can assume, given his strategic mind) remains hidden and continues undermining the Jedi in other ways, and he still has Order 66 up his sleeve. And I don't think the message from ROTS is that the Jedi stuffing up caused Anakin to turn either. It's his desperation to hold onto Padme that causes Anakin to intervene in the Windu/Sidious fight, not because Mace wouldn't cut him any slack. The doubts Anakin has in the integrity of the Jedi are created by Palpatine, they just happen to be assisted by the some of exchanges he has with the Jedi.

So how you can take from the PT that the Jedi are useless and that in the OT Kenobi and Yoda are just fabricating Jedi lore I'm not quite sure.

 

Even if the Jedi had done those things, it wouldn't make a difference because any course of action they take afterwards will only lead to their own destruction. If they don't accept the clones, then Palpatine declares them traitors to the Senate and Order 66 will take place. If they do accept them, than the longevity of the Clone Wars will erase the Jedi's numbers.

Either way, it doesn't mean that the Jedi are incompetant, ignorant, or foolish but they are screwed.

First off, the Jedi have not seen the Sith for 1,000 years and Qui-Gon doesn't have any concrete evidence to prove that his attacker(Darth Maul) is a Sith so they have no reason to believe him, hence why only Qui-Gon and Obi-wan are sent back to Naboo. Second, the Jedi cannot let the Senate know that Valorum's ambassadors are Jedi Knights knowing that he hired them "secretly" according to the TPM opening scroll. It would get both Valorum and the Jedi in trouble for violating Republic rules and regulations so therefore, they're unable to prove that the Trade Federation attempted to murder the ambassadors or that they're holding an entire planet hostage with their droid armies.

Its impossible for the Jedi to search for the Sith when they don't have any positive ID on who the Sith Lords are or what they look like. Its not that the Jedi are less bright, cold, or unconcerned but that the Sith have done their homework and are 2 steps ahead of the Jedi.

 

It does matter because what is relevant here is how smart the jedi comes across as. There is a world of difference between one person doing his best and struggling valiantly but looses anyway and a person that looses because he or she is too stupid to fight back. In this case, a) the jedi do not know that they will loose in the next film so they have no reason for their inaction. b) I have said before that the jedi might not have had much choice in USING the clones but the sheer volume of strange things around the clones should have made them suspicious.
The jedi could have done many things, like making sure who actually did order the clones, take a closer look at their training, if order 66 was put there by the Kamino people, which is most likely, they could have found it. They could have limited the number of jedi with the army and they could also have moved some of their students and younglings away from Coruscant, making them a less easy target.

To me, if the jedi hade made some effort to try and find out more about the clones and at least discussed some of the many mysteries they faced it would have made them seem much less dim.

If the other masters on the jedi council are unsure about Qui-Gon then all the more reason for 2-3 of them to come along and see for themselves. A person with a red lightsaber and that knows about the Force attacks Qui-Gon. Given that there does not seem to be anything other than jedi and sith that use lightsabers or can use the force they have only two choices. a) A sith or b) a renegade or fallen jedi but that last one should be easy enough to check by looking over their own records.

Secondly we do not know for a fact that Valorum sending jedi "in secret" was in any way illegal or in violation of protocoll, since neither the TF, Palpatine nor any of the jedi make any mention of this. Perhaps it is customary for the chancellor to inform the senate but he does not need their approval. In any event Valorum was already in big trouble from the vote of no confidence so the jedi need not protect him. And I would think that the news of galactic civil war would weigh a lot heavier than the jedi maybe breaking regulations.
But that does not matter because what I am suggesting is that instead of just two jedi, the jedi council send 10-12 jedi of which 2-4 are masters on the council. They need not inform the senate of this, they simply come with Padme back to Naboo.

Lastly, look at the whole situation,
a) the TF have started a war by invading Naboo and for all the jedi know they could be planing to attack many other worlds as well.
b) the Republic have not got an army or any defences other that the jedi.
c) the TF have attmpted to murder two jedi that acted as ambassadors for the senate.
d) when the senate is informed of these events, instead of doing something about it they flat out refuse to b

 

The prequels are the yin to the classic trilogy's yang.

Lucas has always said that Star Wars was a "cubist" idea where he shows all different sides to everything.

In the prequels you have a "good" establishment being overtaken by a "bad" rebellion, in the classic trilogy you have a "bad" establishment being overtaken by a "good" rebellion.

 

Got ya now and I agree.

Yup, true again. Mace did act quickly, moving in on Palpatine, so there wasn't a lot of time to consult or relay information to any one. But you know, that was a pretty knuckleheaded thing to do. Although, one would think that 4 Jedi masters, including Windu could take on 1 Sith. I suppose if Anakin hadn't arrived, Mace with his Vaapad may have been able to. But I agree it does make the Jedi more morally ambiguous in this light.

Ah agreed...but that is not what I meant. You are correct that it was something ALL of the masters on the council needed to address. I was referring to the 10,000 Jedi spread across the galaxy. Not all fighting wars, some were being peace keepers, ambassadors of peace and negotiators. But the "Sith" deal should have been given top priority, I agree with that. That moves beyond cynical and into the negative, but deservedly so.

I wouldn't

 

I'm only responding to the first post here. I agree with your analysis, but differ on the ultimate conclusion. Lucas intended to construct the series as you have pointed out. For the prequels, they are transpiring in a time of great political and social upheval. There is uncertainty and chaos persisting and confusing the characters. Ultimately the first three films are the story of the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker, and with him the collapse and decline of the Old Republic and the Jedi Order. These films are cynical about public service, government, military action, etc. Everything is in shades of gray and nothing is definite.

By contrast, the original three films occur during a time where everything needs to be clear and explicit. There are clear sides, either one is with the empire or the rebellion. There really cannot be any middle ground or confusion over what is happening. It is the story of how a pathetic alliance of unorganized rebels and primitive people trample an empire, usurp power, and restore order.

-Seldon

 

There is no difference between a person fighting a losing battle and one whose too stupid to fight back because the outcome will still be the same meaning that they will still lose the fight. Just because the Jedi haven't done anything about the existence of the Clones doesn't make them dim or stupid since Obi-wan told the Council that the Kaminoans have no motive which means that they don't believe that the Kaminoans implanted Order 66 into the Clones's mindset. Plus, the Jedi already figured out that it was Dooku who ordered the Clones at the request of his master, Darth Sidious since he's the only Jedi that knew the location of Kamino (hence, why its erased from the Jedi Archives) and Obi-wan followed Jango Fett from Kamino to Geonosis where Dooku is located. Finally, the Jedi have no reason to move their students and younglings anywhere since they are training them to overcome insurmountable odds (like Obi-wan and Yoda did against the Clones upon their return to the Jedi Temple) and that the Clones are totally obedient to them.

They just didn't predict that the Clones would turn agaisnt them or that Sidious is none other than Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.

Just because a person uses a lightsaber doesn't make them a Jedi or a Sith. Qui-Gon even said so to Anakin while they were having dinner and even the Council shared Qui-Gon's opinion so there was no cause for concern.

If spying on the Supreme Chancellor is considered treason, than so is being on a secret mission to uncover what the Trade Federation is up to because they are breaking their

 

There is every difference to US, the viewer. Take sports, tell me which is more exiting to watch, an even match between two teams or one team winning because the other team are to dense to figure out what they are doing? In the case of movies and stories, having a person or group put up a valiantly struggle but still loosing can be moving, sad or uplifting. Watching a bunch of dimwits getting cut down is most likely just going to be boring and frustrating.
We are not dealing with history here, we are talking about which is most moving, entertaining, what ever, to US, the audience.
By this logic the jedi could just all have cut of their own heads in TPM as they were doomed to loose anyway and we could ahve skipped over two films.

The jedi's lack of action with regards to the clones does makes them stupid in my book.
They just get handed an army with a huge number of mysteries attached and they never try to find out more? NO this is very stupid.
Second, nowhere in the films do the jedi conclude that Dooku is the one behind the clones, not that they do not have enough evidence that suggests this.
If they DID conclude this then they know the army was made by the sith and so just using it, no questions asked, is beyond dim, it is moronic.
They know that Dooku is a sith at AotC's end and if he did make the clone army for the republic then they have a HUGE piece of evidence that says that the clone war is fake.

Since the jedi in AotC know that the clones will follow any order and that the chancellor has the highest rank he could order the clones to do anything, including killing them.
Also Mace does find out in RotS that Palaptine is a sith but he still does not warn his fellow jedi.

Qui-Gon say that his attack was well versed in the jedi arts, so he could use the Force.
Also his attacker had fought a jedi master untill the jedi master had to make a quick escape. So he is very capable.

 

In closing, I find the jedi's lack of action in TPM and their indifferent attitude about the sith and the invasion of Naboo a little strange and it just seem like the jedi are just lazy. This makes them seem uncaring and a little slow.

Sounds like the Jedi simply became a victim of their own complacency. But I don't think the PT was the first time that the Jedi were shown as flawed. I think they were also shown as flawed in ROTJ.

 

I don't think the PT is negative, cynical or morally ambiguous and neither that the original trilogy is morally absolute.

what the original trilogy had that the prequel didn't were clearly identifiable sides.

 

Look...the prequels show us the story of how Vader fell. If it is a tragedy why should it have the tone of the Originals?

 

The way I see it, the Republic Senate was so corrupt that evil of course flourished. We see this in reality. Then when it becomes totaltarian like the Empire, just like real life, old enemies become allies and amends are made. Happens every time in history.

Things get stagnant, look at our own government. As long as there is corruption, it will be stagnant. The Jedi, however, were bound by their codes and laws to obey the Republic, despite what harsh feelings and mistrust they harbored against most Senators. In a way, Palpatine served as a non-intentional hero here, by making it so bad, everyone just had to band together and throw out all of the corruption

 

The jedi's lack of action with regards to the clones does makes them stupid in my book.


That simply made them more interesting to me. If Lucas had portrayed the Jedi as they all-wise, perfect beings who were simply destroyed by an external force, I would have found the story rather one-dimensional and slightly childish.

Thankfully, Lucas remembered the old adage that a person's biggest enemy is him or herself. The Jedi were their biggest enemy. Which makes sense to me that Palpatine was finally able to defeat them due to their own flaws.

 

Who said anything about all-wise or perfect? Reasonably competent would do fine.

Also having the jedi being clueless dimwits did not make them interesting to me. Instead it seemed an easy way to get the plot to move forward.
One thing that often annoy me is when people of otherwise normal inteligence suddenly and for no apparent reason become quite stupid in order for the plot to work.
There was a book series that I read several years ago and in it almost all the villains were incredibly stupid, they had great power but the heroes could outwit them extremly easy.
This made the story loose a lot of drama and tension because the villains were such push overs and the heroes were just having a laugh at how dumb the villains were.

Also why would the story be one dimensional or childish if the jedi were at least somewhat comptetent? That way Palpatine had to actually be clever and come up with a brilliant plan in order to defeat the jedi as opposed to the bumbling dimwits he faced now.
In the OT the empire sure has some people that were none too bright but they are not all dimwits. So the heroes has too struggle to defeat the empire and this makes the struggle dramatic.

Take the movie Spartacus, there a group of slaves revolt against their masters and they fight well but in the end they loose. But they do not loose becasue they are total dimwits, the enemy simply was too powerfull and too crafty.
Or take the movie Battlefield Earth, there the villains are to a man total retards and act with such stupidity that the whole thing becomes a joke and a bad one at that.

To me a story looses dramatic punch if one side is made into dimwits in order for the other side to win and in this case it makes it hard for me to feel very sorry for the jedi as they get wiped out because of their own stupidity.

The jedi could have been flawed in other ways than just being dumb and that could have made them interesting characters and give Palpatine weapons to use against them.

Regards
Nordom

 

I'll disagree with the op,other then a few throw away lines,it's pretty much business as usual in the SW universe.Satan and his demon,his black knight and Chris Lee all wear dark clothing,have red lightsabers and do bad things.For all the Jedi's faults there not going to crush the universe under there boot.There not going around starting fake wars,blowing up planets,killing people left and right,torturing people and cackling and laughting about death and destruction.


I agree that Anakin comes of not very heroic but I think that was more of a miss fire by GL.Jake's Anakin was but it's Hayden's Anakin who come off looking awful.


Obi taking out The General seems fine to me.It's a battle in a war and after he beats him he's not standing over him gloating or laughing(same with Maul).He's trying to capture Jango not kill him.He seems pretty sad about Anakin not cold and heartless.

Mace and the Jedi are like police officers,Jango and the Seps fired first,Mace then defended himself.But I do agree the Jedi do come off a little to cold and dumb but I think that's more of a miss fire by GL.


After reading more of the EU,alot of the ideas that show up there do make the films more ambiguous.

 

But in the PT, Obi-Wan does a damn fine job as Anakin's mentor, while the rest of the Jedi order screws things up (particularly Mr. Mace "Being a jerk to the most powerful Jedi in the order will NEVER come back to bite me on the ass" Windu).


I don't think that Obi-Wan did a damn fine job as Anakin's mentor. I don't he did a good job, period. He reminded me of a parent or teacher with a tendency to be overcritical . . . to the point that he undermines the student's sense of self. I'm not saying that Obi-Wan should have patted Anakin on the back and feed his ego like Palpatine did. But I think that Obi-Wan went to the opposite extereme and was too critical and allowed his own ego regarding his experience and age to make him such a poor teacher to Anakin.

As for Mace being a jerk to Anakin, are you referring to the scene in which Anakin lost his temper over not being given the title of Master in ROTS? Because I think that Mace was right to be "a jerk". Anakin was acting like a brat. Even the look on Obi-Wan's face seemed to hint that he believed that Mace did the right thing.

When Mace first met Anakin, he didn't believe that Anakin was the Chosen One. Neither did Obi-Wan, Yoda or the rest of the Jedi Council. By AOTC, I don't know how Mace and Yoda felt about the Chosen One title. But Mace seemed surprised that Obi-Wan continued to express disbelief in the prophecy. He even lectured Obi-Wan about the latter opening his mind to the possibility. By ROTS, not one member on the Jedi Council believed in the prophecy, except for Obi-Wan. To be honest, I don't if Obi-Wan started to believe in the prophecy. But he certainly seemed surprised by Yoda and Mace's open disbelief. And he also noticed that both Jedi Masters seemed to have no faith in Anakin.



Look...the prequels show us the story of how Vader fell. If it is a tragedy why should it have the tone of the Originals?


I never understood why many of the SW fans had expected the PT to have the same tone as the OT.

 

Who said anything about all-wise or perfect? Reasonably competent would do fine.


They were reasonably competent. They also possessed flaws that blinded them to what was going on . . . until it was too late. The Jedi became victims of their own success and flaws. This is nothing new.

 

Obviously the PT is darker in tone, but I disagree strongly with the description of it as 'cynical' ad the suggestion of what Star Wars is 'supposed to be'. The OT tells the mythic story of the successful hero, the PT the other side of the coin. Both of these are foun in Joseph Campell's source material and I think both stories were worth telling.

I also strongly disagree about the supposed relative heroism of the characters. I think that Kenobi, Padme, Yoda, Mace Qui Gon and Anakin are all heroic, but face more diffcult moral ambiguities in the PT. OTOH you have criminals and scoundrels in Han and Lando in the OT. Han is surely at least as ruthless as anyone in the PT when he blasts Greedo (at least before this sequence was Disneyfied). Han als shows his mercenary instincts in much of the saga. Lando hands his supposed friends over to the Empire in an act of betrayal that gets his supposed buddy tortured, frozen and handed over to a gangster seeking revenge. Positive and uplifting stuff? Luke comes extremely close to turning to the dark side as well.

 

No long unsupervised talks with Politicians; trained by Obi-Wan is fine, but overseen on a regular basis by all of the Jedi; no trips off with beautiful women to guard them in their homes alone, while young, after having expressed an irresistible interest in them; heavy duty assistance when they come to you with a problem (like attachments!); heavy duty assistance when it is known they are growning arrogant and have BIG - no - GIGANTIC problems controling their anger.


I think that allowing Obi-Wan to train Anakin was one of the Jedi's worst mistakes. Obi-Wan was not emotionally or temperamentally suited to train someone like Anakin.

 

Anakin seems to have a pretty large ego in AotC, so I don't know why you think Obi-Wan undermined his ego. I mean, Anakin believes he'll be the most powerful Jedi ever. By RotS, he's still got a fairly big ego given that he believes he can overrule the Force itself and stop Padme's death.

 

Han is surely at least as ruthless as anyone in the PT when he blasts Greedo (at least before this sequence was Disneyfied).

If it is important to you that Han is shown to be ruthless, check out the scene on the Death Star, in which he refuses to help Luke rescue Leia. He was not willing to risk his life to save hers . . . until Luke offered money. Frankly, I found that scene more cold-blooded . . . without being so obvious, like the catina scene.

 

Anakin seems to have a pretty large ego in AotC, so I don't know why you think Obi-Wan undermined his ego. I mean, Anakin believes he'll be the most powerful Jedi ever. By RotS, he's still got a fairly big ego given that he believes he can overrule the Force itself and stop Padme's death.


Obi-Wan's ego was just as big. Despite his misgivings about Anakin, he honestly believed that he could handle the latter's training. He hardly ever paid attention to Qui-Gon's advice about the Living Force. He seemed to believe that rigidly following the rules would make him or just about anyone else the ideal Jedi Knight. Judging from his interactions with the likes of Jar-Jar and Anakin in TPM, he had an egotistical way of looking down on others whom he considered as "lower life forms". He seemed to have this attitude toward droids, as well, judging from his humorous argument with Anakin about R2-D2 around the beginning of ROTS.

Anakin's ego manifested in one way and Obi-Wan's in another. Even other characters like Padme, Yoda, Mace and Palpatine, had some pretty sized ego that eventually failed them.