PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute

Obi-Wan did handle Anakin's training. Anakin's failure came after he was a fully trained Jedi Knight. You'll notice that every evil act Anakin commits before becoming a Sith Lord is when Obi-Wan isn't around. As for Qui-Gon's advice about the Living Force, prove it. Thirdly, his "another pathetic lifeform" statement was a joke, nothing more. You're taking it far too seriously. When he interacts with Anakin he shows that while he's nervous about him, he doesn't treat him as a lesser life.

I never denied that Obi-Wan had an ego. almost everyone does to one extent or another. However, Anakin's is exceptionally large despite the idea that it was "undermined."

 

I'll point out that Obi-Wan had no particular reason to not believe that Jedi training would fail Anakin; it had just worked pretty well for everyone else for a thousand-year period. It's like firmly believing that your transmission is going to fall out of your car just because. Yes, Anakin's circumstances were different starting out, but to expect Obi-Wan to somehow 1) know that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, 2) that Anakin's mother was going to die 10 years later in particularly horrible circumstances and that 3) 1 and 2 were going to effect eachother solely because Anakin was going to have dreams about his wife dying 13 years down the road that led to him choosing to join the Sith.

 

The galaxy is small nasty and complicated and everybody dies alone. That pretty much sums up the prequals, and if I was to be somewhat daring the state of the world today.

 

The prequels are actually the conteporary counterpart of the classic trilogy imo. Back in the day the trilogy stood as a story where overall the good guys win, bad guys lose and all is well. The prequels added a shade of reality into the mix by showing us that things werent always on the brink of victory, that an entire universal empire didnt have 1 mean streak in ESB and then toppled.

In the classics we get the story of a boy who trains, makes mistakes but ultimately doesnt go and ruin the ending to the saga.

In the prequels we are mirrored this scenario but are shown that it IS possible to kick the saga into overtime by making everything go wrong at the end, thus making the victories at the end of the saga much more hard earned imo.

I personally feel its a much needed addition.

I noticed I wasnt a fan that was like classic fans when it turns out that the main reason I find the films so involving is BECAUSE of this "accident", which I find genius. Its sort of a social experiment imo, a play on the existing things of this universe. We now see a govermnent decaying, we see the good guy turn bad, all things that would be a no no in the originals, but now all 6 movies feel believable enough to buy into imo.

 

I'll point out that Obi-Wan had no particular reason to not believe that Jedi training would fail Anakin; it had just worked pretty well for everyone else for a thousand-year period.


You mean those like Count Dooku . . . or the Jedi Master who became the first Sith?



Yes, Anakin's circumstances were different starting out, but to expect Obi-Wan to somehow 1) know that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, 2) that Anakin's mother was going to die 10 years later in particularly horrible circumstances and that 3) 1 and 2 were going to effect eachother solely because Anakin was going to have dreams about his wife dying 13 years down the road that led to him choosing to join the Sith.


I never accused Obi-Wan of the above. All I had stated was that in his own way, he was egotistical and made mistakes . . . like Anakin and other major characters. I also believe that he was simply the wrong person to train Anakin. He tried to be an ideal Jedi. He tried to train Anakin to be an ideal Jedi. And it simply didn't work. There is no such thing as an ideal Jedi and that is something that Obi-Wan, the other Jedi and even Anakin failed to realize.

 

You mean those like Count Dooku . . . or the Jedi Master who became the first Sith?

The Jedi only lost 20 members in their over a thousand generation history(at least as far as the films say.) That's not a bad track record.

 

The jedi order is like a big family. And people don't betray their family easily.

The jedi failed in integrating Anakin properly into this family. Something Obi Wan could not have forseen (well, maybe except for the fact that a "chosen one" is naturally going to be viewed differently).

But he should've accepted that he is basically Anakins father and not deny it in an attempt to be a proper jedi master (no attachments and all...).

 

That's a problem inherent to the Jedi philosophy, though. The Jedi reject attatchments and so it requires a person who can identify with the other Jedi based on their shared ideals, and Anakin failed to do so.

 

Who is the fool? The fool or the one who follows him?

Or similar.

Point is: Just because it is part of the teachings doesn't mean you should accept it blindly, like OBW has.

Ideals can never hold you to a place alone. Psychology doesn't work that way.
/If I'm constantly treated badly at a working space I'm not going to stay, even if it's people with good ideals.

 

I don't agree that Obi-Wan accepted them blindly. TPM shows that he's still questioning the Jedi through Qui-Gon. He does end up fairly orthodox, but the orthodoxy is right in this case. Attachment does lead to the Dark Side, as Anakin showed. If they reject that belief, they would cease to be Jedi.

 

That's a problem inherent to the Jedi philosophy, though. The Jedi reject attatchments and so it requires a person who can identify with the other Jedi based on their shared ideals, and Anakin failed to do so.


That is a problem with the Jedi. Instead of teaching others to eventually let go of attachments, they had expected all of the padawans, knights and masters to outright reject them. They had failed to teach someone to let go of attachmens . . . when the time is right. Instead, the Jedi forced their intiates to reject attachments via a rule. As if that would solve the problem. It did not. Yet at the same time, the Jedi became attached to the Order itself.


This is the lesson that the Jedi and Obi-Wan in particular had taught Anakin. And it was the wrong lesson to teach.

 

>>>Yet at the same time, the Jedi became attached to the Order itself.

They were attached to the Republic. Saying that the Jedi were attached to the Order lacks meaning because the Jedi were the Order.

 

The Jedi demonstrate that they weren't attached to the Order. Once the Order was destroyed, Obi-Wan and Yoda simply accepted that the Jedi were no more and simply tried to bring balance to the Force. They similarly accepted the Republic's fate. They later move to restore both, but they leave that to the Will of the Force. If it had never brought Luke to Obi-Wan, they would have simply died at peace in exile.

They taught Anakin the right lesson, but he refused to listen.

 

The Jedi demonstrate that they weren't attached to the Order. Once the Order was destroyed, Obi-Wan and Yoda simply accepted that the Jedi were no more and simply tried to bring balance to the Force. They similarly accepted the Republic's fate. They later move to restore both, but they leave that to the Will of the Force. If it had never brought Luke to Obi-Wan, they would have simply died at peace in exile.


Yeah. Right. And that's why they tried to kill both Sidious and Vader . . . without informing the Senate. Especially since one of the Sith Lords was the ruler of the galaxy. Even worse, they never realized that their actions could have further set the galaxy's opinion against the Jedi. Yeah . . . they really knew how to let go. Not.

 

Agreed.

They knew they'd die needlessly if they tried to strike again, so they waited until the opportunity arose. Simple strategic thinking. I don't think they "let go" galactic peace, freedom and their order.

What if the force "wills" them to fight though? They failed to interpret the force before, how could they be sure that the "will of the force" lies in their inaction?

 

Yeah. Right. And that's why they tried to kill both Sidious and Vader . . . without informing the Senate. Especially since one of the Sith Lords was the ruler of the galaxy. Even worse, they never realized that their actions could have further set the galaxy's opinion against the Jedi. Yeah . . . they really knew how to let go. Not.

They moved to kill the Sith for the good of the galaxy, not out of anger. Accepting that the Order was destroyed doesn't mean giving up the fight for peace, freedom, and justice.

Oh, there was certainly a strategic element involved. I'm not saying they resigned themselves to the oppression of the Empire, merely that they didn't bother trying to deny reality as Anakin did.

Had the Force done so, I assume they would have fought again. However, Qui-Gon's training appears to have let them pierce the shroud of the Dark Side judging by their greater accuracy in the OT.

 

It seems more like a shift in attitude. I thought Qui-Gon's training was about becoming a Force ghost.

 

Right, but I'm wondering if that shift in attitude had other ramifications than becoming a Force Ghost. Of course, the Jedi outright state that they can't see the future in the OT, so maybe not.

 

I've always thought that the ability to ghost was a function of enhanced understanding of the Force, rather than the main focus of the new learning.

 

I think their "accuracy" ( for lack of a better word ) remains generally constant.

 

Really?
Why then the whole "kill Vader" parts OBW said and the fact they didn't tell him who his father was beforehand?-instead they let Vader use it against Luke.

You seem to take the force as a human being, thinking and feeling and constant in his "will". It is fickle in nature, because it binds all things together and is influenced by them. And it is certainly not inherently benevolent, otherwise we wouldn't have the whole sidious desaster.

 

Lucas, in fact, said that it was not.

 

They didn't tell Luke who his father was because they were concerned about whether or not Luke could handle it at that point. The impression the films leave me with is that they intended to tell him eventually, but wanted to make sure he had the proper emotional control and perspective before they did.

I think the "Will of the Force" is largely a metaphor used by the Jedi to describe the 'current'(for lack of a better word) of the Force. They don't know what causes said current, only that it's there and as sentient beings, they apply an anthropomorphic term to it. As for the whole Sidious thing, I explain that as the Force's "will" not being inviolable. The Jedi attempt to bring themselves in line with the Force's "will"(though, they don't always succeed at it) while the Sith attempt to bend the Force to their will.

 

But they knew that he would meet Vader in Cloud City and didn't tell him before he left.

I think more of the dark and the white side as being two sides of one medal. The emotions that fuel the dark side like fear and anger are extremely important for the survival of all creatures in general. What would be the world without strife or desire? There would be no change-ever.

Seperating them in a "good" and an "evil" side seems a bit superficial.

As for their use, yes, the Sith view the force as a tool and the Jedi as "God" that must be served. That doesn't mean that the projections the Jedi make about the force (God) are always right. The force has both initiated bad and good things, and viewing the bad things as "violations of the force" despite the fact that the force played part... is very inconsistent.

 

I imagine that it didn't occur to them that Vader would admit he was Luke's father as that's admitting that he was once Anakin Skywalker.

It's not inconsistent at all. The films prove that the Prophecy is only fulfilled when the Chosen One destroys the Sith. Palpatine's very survival violates the "Will of the Force" as he was able to 'obstruct' it by seducing Anakin into darkness which keeps the Sith around for 18-20 years after the Prophecy was 'supposed' to come to pass(RotS.)