PT PT or TCW?

I personally haven't seen any major contradictions between the TV shows and the movies (and given that the franchise is now making a point of keeping everything consistent, I think most of the future mistakes are either going to be true accidents and typos, or fans mistakingly taking offhand comments and generalizations as hard facts).

The movies should be the most correct version of events, but that doesn't mean that they have to tell every piece of information or have the characters "knowing" the most accurate information...

 

Here, here!

 

TCW by a significant margin. No contest.

 

I just don't understand why it has to be an either/or thing?

 

Then break the rules, say you love both instead

 

I picked the PT mainly because I felt the visuals and worldbuilding are better, as well as the fact some clone wars ideas and episodes seemed out of place to me. Now I did enjoy TCW for it's better potrayel of Anakin imo and the clone centric episodes being my favorite in the show.

 

That is the thing, some of the new content is very inconsistent with the original 6 films. TFA badly contradicts with the OT at several points and makes the OT hero's victories meaningless. Filoni has already disagreed with the story group, and group decisions are notorious for being inconsistent and problematic. The new Rouge one film appears to feature a force using imperial officer which badly contradicts with ANH. To me, it seemed back when TCW was in production, Lucas back peddled some and change story aspects around to suit the prequel complainers such as making Anakin nicer and more likable, giving the clones personalities,, make the war more black and white, introducing a kid friendly sidekick, bring Maul back which many had complained was wasted by being killed in TPM, etc.

 

There is? I'm not accusing you of lying, I'm just genuinely curious if it's true. What has been released that seems to indicate that as a possibility in Rogue One. Because I agree that if there were one than that does seem in conflict with the OT. Obviously the biggest being with the "I find your lack of faith disturbing" scene.

 

Oh?

I've seen TFA a few times and am a bit of a continuity hound and I didn't see any major mistakes (and I was actually a little worried there would be. Could you give some examples?

From what I've seen, Rebels has gone out of its way to work with the Story Group and Filoni seems onboard (not to mention that the Story Group is in charge to begin with), so I'm not sure what you're referencing.

First I've heard of it.

A lot of those elements conflicted with Legends materials, but don't conflict with anything in the rebooted continuity.

 

But the rebooted continuity contradicts with the film continuity itself, much like the old EU did, some things never change I guess.

 

None of that is contradicting anything.

- We know for a fact that the there were more dark side users than just the Sith (Dark Jedi like Asaj Ventress, the Nightsisters, the Inquisitors, etc.). A new group fits in just as well.

-We never saw the end of the war in Jedi, just the victory of one battle that happened to take out the head of state (but not the capital or the entire war machine).

- I'll address the clones below.

- We don't know why Luke ran away and there's nothing to preclude it (we've never seen him handle what he went through in canon before, so who knows how he would react).

- Han's story arc actually makes a lot of sense as to why he's doing it again ("We both had to deal with [the loss of our son] in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever good at.") and the emphasis is on the fact that he shouldn't be smuggling again ("You've been running from this fight for far too long."), which he ultimately chooses not to.

- It's pretty obvious that Kylo is thinking of Darth Vader the Sith Lord, not Anakin Skywalker the fallen Jedi who repented (the novelization makes it clear that Anakin's redemption is viewed by Snoke and Kylo as a last-minute weakness on an otherwise excellent career).

- As i mentioned before, we never saw the end of the war in ROTJ. We could infer some likely possibilities, but nothing was set in stone. Now we're getting those answers and just because they don't match our assumptions doesn't mean that they're invalid, esp. when there's no continuity errors with the rest of the movie series.

The movies never address it, so it could be clones or non-clones. The working assumption is that the clone troopers were phased out over time. We see a clone veteran in Tarkin, set years before Rebels and it's discussed if he's no longer fit for service. By the time of Rebels proper, the clones are senior citizen age (biologically), so it makes sense that they would no longer be in service (although one clone was offered to be re-instated on the show). So it's not a contradiction, since we're seeing the change over time and it's been accounted for. (Even if not, it's never been said in canon that there are no clones anywhere, we've mostly seen focus on non-clone recruits -- which, for what it's worth, is how Legends handled it, too. So, no contradiction in actual output.)

We don't see the context of that scene, so who knows what it's supposed to be, much less if it's in the final cut. (Technology could accomplish that, for what it's worth.

 

And in relation to Han going back to smuggling, who knows what the fallout of the reveal of Leia's parentage did to everyone.
I could see no one wanting to hire Han or have endorse stuff because of Papa Vader.

 

Perhaps, but I am afraid they will probably go with the force.

 

There being dark side users beyond the usual Sith- Jedi dichotomy has always been a facet of the EU. TCW just co opted on that aspect.
ST appears to have followed the same path. It seems like Knights of Ren are distinctive from the Sith. Probably have their own line of philosophy.

 

Yes, TCW was always a odd hybrid of film elements and EU elements. I remember one interview with Filoni where he saw himself as the master of canon. He thought it was his job to interject as much EU into TCW to make it "more accurate" and "more authentic" Star Wars for George ie, fix George's mistakes which he did outright said. He even stated that when he went over scripts with Lucas, he would tell George oh the EU already has stuff like that, we need to put EU elements in here, here, and here! Lucas is a fairly passive person and pretty open to input from others, from allowing Jackson to having a purple lightsaber to allowing Filoni to "correct" his scripts with EU material. Moreover, Filoni has complained that Lucas would frequently change his mind back and forth during TCW which often delayed production. With the first two seasons, the show writers didn't even meet with each other, they just wrote independently of each other with little to no input from Lucas. It wasn't until the 3rd season when the writers would have a yearly conference with each other with Lucas. TCW is a gumbo of Lucas, Filoni, the other show writers, and even EU writers who had no direct involvement in the show but had some of their story elements lifted into it by Filoni's cherry picking. IMHO, the show suffered from too many chiefs and was simply the wrong format for Star Wars to begin with. TV is too small for SW IMO.

 

Nowhere in the movies does it say that destroying the Sith will balance the Force. In fact, TMP establishes that the Force's balance has nothing to do with the Sith (the Sith were believed destroyed and the prophecy still wasn't considered fulfilled.)

I've heard all the "Rey is a Mary Sue" arguments. Funny thing is that you need to ignore parts of TFA (or TFA and other pieces of canon) to make any of them work. Even funnier is that Rey's Force usage is actually very consistent with the previous movies (and wider canon) and requires ignoring parts of all the movies to make it work. So, the short answer is that the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument is completely invalid and she is baseline Force-wise, not overpowered.

Perhaps, but I am afraid they will probably go with the force.[/quote]

I hope not, too.

 

Meh.

The Clone War was initially written to be anthology series. With episodes constantly jumping around between different characters. So its fitting for that it would be a melting pot of ideas between various creators.


TCW is a series which has very warmly received. Even many of the OT fan base who seems to have a natural inclination to despise anything that is from the prequel era been forced to relent that it is good.

 

Yeah, because all Force users died and no one could ever turn to the dark side again. It's impossible in a galaxy that big that there isn't more than two religions that study, use and worship the Force.

What, the Empire was going to just quit fighting?

World War I was called the war to end all wars. Twenty years later, World War II: Electric Boogloo. Made WWI pointless. In 2003, Iraq fell and two years later, Saddam was executed. In 2011, Bin Laden was double tapped. But now we still have fighting in the Middle East and Bin Laden's organization is still going. Lincoln freed the slaves with the Civil War, but we still have racism and inequality today.

Yeah, because it's not like Kamino couldn't be taken over by the Republic and thus forcing the Empire to turn to raw recruits.

He went to Ach To, site of the first Jedi Temple. There's a reason he did so.

Why wouldn't he? What makes you think that he would give it up in ROTJ? He needs something to do.

And his grandfather joined the same man who wanted his wife dead and asked him to betray and kill his friends. Twisted by the dark side.

Welcome to the world of storytelling. That's why Lucas was willing to do Episodes VII-IX before he decided to sell to Disney. He saw more stories to be told despite wrapping it all off.

Who cares?

That doesn't mean that he's using the Force. For all we know, the water is very shallow.

We don't know anything about Rey. For all we know, she has Jedi training but has partial amnesia. Thus she doesn't remember that she was trained in the Jedi Arts, but starts acting because of her deep seated training. Also, Luke did pretty well levitating his Lightsaber without Yoda and Obi-wan teaching him. Especially since Obi-wan never said, or showed that he could do it. Not to mention that Luke is a Gary Stu. Lucas=Luke S.

Right, but that doesn't stop the fighting. It isn't impossible for the Empire to evolve into the First Order.

1. What makes you think Luke is afraid? Leia and Han specifically say that Luke went in search of the first Jedi Temple. What is it said that he was afraid? The only ones who are afraid in TFA is Ben, because he believes that he will never be like his grandfather and Finn, who is afraid that he'll be killed or conscripted back into the First Order.

2. What makes you think that Ben and Snoke aren't stronger than Luke?

Except when he was going to leave in TESB to become a smuggler again. Showing that he has a history of running away and going back to what he was best good at.

Except Ben has an affinity for his grandfather the same way Luke did for his father. Ben is going to be seduced by the notion that his grandfather was doing the right thing, but let compassion get in the way. By killing Han, he is cementing his determination that he will not let such weakness impede the First Order's success. Snoke is going to butter him up the same way Sidious did to Anakin.

We saw the end of a major battle. That doesn't mean that the war ended right then and there. Hell, the US is still fighting a war that ended ten years ago. As to the old EU, Lucas was the one who said it was okay to tell stories after ROTJ that included the Empire still being a threat. And he himself was going to have the Empire still around and a Jedi killer going after Luke's students.

Actually, it does in ROTS. The Jedi realize that with the Sith back, that the prophecy may still be true and thus agreed to let Anakin be trained.

 

It originally was a continuation of the microseries which Lucas highly praised, they he changed his mind and decided TCW should completely retcon the microseries. Lucas was a frequent mind changer, don't mean that as an insult to him, it is just the way he operated and has lead to some contradictions.

Only some of the haters have relented. As I said before, TCW backtracks on some of the PT story elements which the PT haters probably like. It seems Lucas did listen to some of the PT complaints and used that towards the adaption process from live action film to animated weekly TV series.

 

Agreed, the Sith cause imbalance by using the darkside, expanding it which weakens the lightside and the Jedi and creating imbalance. By joining the Sith, Anakin throws the force into darkness. Lucas once explained that the darkside is addictive like a drug, DS users can't help but keep abusing the force causing imbalance and why eventually the darkside consumes its users. By destorying the Sith, the darkside is denied users and falls back into balance. Lightside users strive for balance, they can't unbalance the force, darksider users create imbalance due to their abuses of the force. This is why just two sith can unbalance the force and weaken 1,000s of Jedi. This is why the existence of other darkside users doesn't make sense with the narrative the films presents.

 

That happens at the end of TMP. Obi-Wan does say that Anakin was supposed to destroy the Sith at the end of ROTS, but it's unclear if he's quoting the prophecy itself or just saying what he thought the prophecy meant. It's also unclear if Anakin actually fulfilled it or not; one school of thought is that he did by destroying the Sith Order in ROTJ, the other thought is that he was supposed to take the Father's place in the Mortis story Clone Wars episodes, but since he rejected that, the prophecy was never fulfilled. (There's also the three sub possibilities that Anakan was never the Chosen One at all, the Jedi misunderstood the prophecy -- as Yoda allows in ROTS -- or that after rejecting the position, Luke took Anakin's place in the prophecy in ROTJ.) If we be believe Lor San Tekka in TFA that the Force is still unbalanced, that could mean that the prophecy was never fulfilled, by whatever theory you prefer.

Just because people don't believe in something doesn't mean that others can't.

The other parts of the military not at Endor? The government on Coruscant? Planets loyal to the Empire that don't trust the Rebels? (We know that these were factors from Aftermath). Endor may have been the crushing blow, but the Empire didn't die overnight (nor could it in real life).

The references to phasing out clones all suggest that it was what they wanted to do, not that they were forced to do it.

We only saw a glimpse of him in TFA, so we don't know what would be in character for him now.

Did he want to be general? I don't get why you're still arguing this over. The movie explains exactly why, and even points out that he shouldn't be doing this.

And his grandfather joined the same man who wanted his wife dead and asked him to betray and kill his friends. Twisted by the dark side.

Except Anakin / Vader didn't know Palps wanted Padme dead and believed he was genuinely trying to help him.

There are the Inquisitors, so we know that the Empire does have other Force-using agents in service that aren't Sith.

Which movie did you watch? Facts. The stuff we see Rey do are all things that have been established to be done by untrained Force sensitives (mostly by just trying to do it) and the mind trick we have no info on, so claiming she can't do it not only an argument without evidence, but has also been answered in canon. (It's also a Padawan level trick, anyways.)

We also never see her repeat any tricks, so we don't know how well she has mastered anything. Beyond that, the movies strongly suggest that she's an above-average Force user and she's specifically cited as needing training and goes off to find Luke to do that. So, no, she hasn't done a three-character movie arc in one, just a one-in-one.

"In [Luke's] absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire..." There's your answer.

Possibly. Luke is human. He could make a mistake like that.

As ROTS proves, one doesn't need the Force to kill Jedi. Also, Snoke has an army and the Knights of Ren, so that gives him an advantage.

But from the way he was saying his good-byes, it's a safe assessment that he was leaving for good, to pick up his old life again. (Would Leia be so mad if he was planning to come back afterwards?)

His grandfather was also one of the most powerful Sith in history, had a very visible profile, and the pre-ROTJ career would be the envy of any would-be dark siders.

He also had ideas for more movies and has changed his mind a lot. Besides, the movies have now proved him wrong.

 

At least, now the ardent fans of the PT fans know the ardent OT fans felt when Lucas ''changed'' stuff to create the prequels.
Just as Dave Filoni and his crew did the same to the PT to create the TCW.

 

Again, the galaxy is a huge place. There is plenty of room for the Dagoyan Masters, the Nightsisters and others. Everyone you mentioned were non Force users. Han Solo, Nute Gunray, Motti, etc. Far different from other Force users having their own religious order and you know it. Just because their is ignorance doesn't mean jack ****.

The ones who were aboard the Star Destroyers that weren't destroyed at Endor, which they did for one year. Then they've spent the last thirty years building up new forces as we've seen at the Starkiller Base and that wasn't the sum total of all First Order officers, pilots, technicians and Stormtroopers.

You miss the point. Winning a war doesn't stop new ones from starting. War is always pointless, but it is also always ongoing.

But it didn't and instead raised troops. This isn't the Empire. This is the First Order.

That's not running away if he is looking for answers about the Knights of the Ren that isn't in the Jedi Temple Archives on Coruscant. The fact that he left the map with Lor San Tekka and Artoo, knowing that he could be found, indicates that he intended to be found when it was necessary.

Except he quit and was doing nothing much of importance. Then his son went rogue and he did what he did best because he was hurting inside.

He knew that he was Darth Sidious and thus the Master of Count Dooku, and the leader of the Confederacy. He was the one who signed off on Padme's assassination. So, yes, he knows that he wanted her dead. But he only went along with it because of his own fear and ignorance.

He wasn't prepared to sell his company until Iger came to him with an offer to buy him out. Both have stated as such. Before then, Lucas wasn't prepared to sell his company. He wasn't even thinking about it. But his own words, as well as that of his son and the big three confirm that Lucas was preparing for it well before he sold his company.

I'm not speaking for everyone, when I say, who cares. And how is that a hateboy tactic? Seriously. You're the one who is acting like a hateboy here. And as to whether you like it or not, is irrelevant. You opened this door and now you're going to participate in it. That means listening to the pros and cons of it. And if you don't like that, you're free to go your own way. But don't act like you're the injured party here.

So has George Lucas.

What doesn't gel? That Rey figures out how to use a mind trick and levitate a Lightsaber, without being taught. Hello? Luke Skywalker here. We don't know if Luke ever practiced trying to levitate his saber before. Fighting? She's not fighting like a Jedi. She's just swinging the saber, which anyone can do. And again, we don't know if she had training or not.

Uh, there is. There was all those Star Destroyers that weren't destroyed. There's the Regional Governors who weren't on the Death Stars and weren't captured. Not all of the Imperials who were on Coruscant were captured or killed. There's still Imperial supporters. They don't automatically stop supporting. There was enough to keep the fighting going for a year, then take a couple of decades to build back up. After all, the US was once considered defeated at Pearl Harbor.

You're assuming that's what he did. He went to the first Temple. That's not hiding as he could have just gone to Dagobah. He went back to the beginning of the Jedi Order. That shows that he's attempting to fix things.

Why, because you said so? Remember, Darth Plagueis could create life. Who is to say that he, or someone else didn't create Snoke? As to Ben, who is to say that he wouldn't be more powerful genetically. Not because he's the anti-chosen one, but because that's how his DNA turned out.

He wasn't going to come back when he was done. That's why he and Leia were arguing in TESB. He wasn't in it for their revolution and he wasn't going to stay if he had no reason to stay. He was there for her and because she couldn't admit that she loved him, he was going to leave and not come back. Leia even says as much.

HAN: "Well, I don't trust him, either. But he is my friend. Besides, we'll soon be gone."

LEIA: "And then you're as good as gone, aren't you?"

The bounty was the excuse he was using, but it wasn't the real reason.

Luke's affinity was before he even knew his father was alive, much less because of the Force. Luke grew up worshiping the idea of his father, which is why he wanted to be a pilot like he was. And when he found out he was a Jedi, he wanted to be like him as well. Ben grew up with an affinity for his grandfather, who was said to be a great Jedi once and a hero. Then he finds out that his grandfather was considered evil, but Snoke tells him that his grandfather was still a hero regardless. He's worshiping the things he did as Darth Vader.

And then George Lucas said, "I want to know what happened next" and started to figure that out. That's why he and Kennedy brought back Kasdan and hired Ardnt, to help figure it out. They came up with the basic storyline. Of a Stormtrooper who rebels against his training. Of a Jedi killer out to eliminate the Jedi. Of a young female Jedi who begins her training. An X-Wing pilot who fights hard and is a great pilot.

That's not what Lucas said. He said that the Sith cause the imbalance by blurring the lines between good and evil and it is the result of what Darth Sidious did, not the Sith in general. The Sith are gone. The Ren are here, but the Force is still in balance.

Lucas didn't really change anything. Nor did Filoni.

 

I've still never seen TCW.

PT all the way, bra.

 

You should give TCW a try Cryo. I'm sure you'd love the bizarre symbolism of Mortis.