PT visuals "sub par" in 20 years?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by bobasho, Apr 28, 2003.

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  1. bobasho Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2002
    star 1
    I have read much lately on the anticipated and speculated "Ultimate Edition" DVDs where the OT's visual effects will be updated even more. It seems that many are no longer impressed with the visuals of the OT and feel that more updates are needed. I wonder if many of these people were alive to realize that these visuals were the most cutting edge of their time.

    Will the PTs visuals seems a little dated and silly in twenty years? I am wondering if any feel that more and more editions is unnecassary and we should recognize that the nature of cinema is dated. Should we celebrate it as a snap-shot in time, rather than an ongoing change? Or are we going to need the Episode 1 and 2: Special Edition hooplah in twenty years?
  2. starwars6554 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2002
    star 6
    I sure hope so because I wasn't old enough to appreciate the release of the Special Editions when they came out. Sure, my dad took me, but I never really got it. I'd like it if they did the same thing for the PT.
  3. FogeyKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2003
    star 1
    Techno advances seem to be happening expotentially. I'm sure in twenty years the effects will be light years beyond what we see today. I don't think Lucas will be around to utilize them though. perhaps whoever owns the rights to the movies will feel compelled to offer an update, but how often can you do something like that?
  4. TK_Four_Two_One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 5
    "Should we celebrate it as a snap-shot in time"

    i like that. i wish someone could get that idea into GL's head too- that the Star Wars i seen in 77,80 and 83 were films i want to see forever. So he should rightfully to his loyal fans release the original versions of the OT on DVD.
  5. DARK_SCORE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 4
    I really don't see why people are harping on about the OT's visuals being sub-par...

    OK, there are a few little bits that are dodgy but whenever I watch, say, the asteroid chase in ESB - particularly when Han pilots the Falcon down close through the canyons of some of the big ones, or I watch the space battle in ROTJ (still, IMO, the best and most visually intense space battle in any SW movie) then I fail to see what people are moaning about...
  6. DARK_SCORE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 4
    And another thing, the visuals in the PT are going to date much quicker than the visuals in the OT.

    Look at the differences between TPM and AOTC - they're already showing differences of style as ILM became more skilled in using CGI.

    If anything, there's more of a case for slightly 'dumbing down' some of the more elaborate effects in those first two movies...
  7. DarthSil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2003
    star 4
    I still cringe every time I see the Rancor scene in ROTJ. But that's just me, I guess.
  8. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    Nope, it's not just you. They need to do something for the Rancor there, the matt lines have been removed pretty well but they need to digitally alter it to match the focus of the background a little better. As it stands, it looks obviously like an effect on top of the film at times.
  9. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    Why oh, why must the updating craze must continue!

    Films are an expression of the time they were created, there is no need to accomodate them to another time.

    Remember when they "updated" the Wizard of Oz and people went berzerk! I think updating movie is a really bad idea. It kills off the art of the movie itself. Will you take the Mona Lisa and paint it in new oils because the paints DaVinci used are "outdated." Can you imagine the silent classic Metropolis being updated? It would kill the movie!


    Having said that, I think the PT will be outdated sooner than the OT. Remember that the OT was the peak of many of the art forms it used, specially model making. The PT is working with CGI, which we can all agree hasn't reached its peak yet.
  10. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    GL considers the OT as we know it to be "rough drafts" of the story. I think he difinitely needs to update the special effects, because this is now a 6-part story, and it should flow as smoothly as possible.


    GL said it best himself when he said how you make a movie is not what matters, as long as you get your story told as best as possible. As it stands, the OT is good enough on its own, but in terms of the entire saga, it needs the special effects boost to connect everything.
  11. qui-gon-kim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    I agree. The important thing for Lucas is that all 6 SW films form a cohesive whole, FX-wise, not how the FX will age over time.
  12. DarthWrytard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2002
    star 2
    The answer to bobasho's question will be most definite when 3D movies come out. Perhaps all films that are not completely interactive will be considered archaic 25 years from now.
  13. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    The effects in the OT should be left alone, aside from minor things, such as erasing the lines around the Rancor. But leave everything else alone.

    When you finish production on a film, it's done. Even Stanley Kubrick, who was more of a perfectionist than anyone else around, even he never went back and changed his films.
  14. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    I think the FX in the PT films will look pretty mediocre in years to come, particularly the much vaunted CGI in TPM, the Gungan battle scenes which were supposed to be such a breakthrough look so mechanical, so computerised, in years to come folk will say - hell, I could do better on my PC.

    FX is an art form, stop-motion may have it's obvious quirks but when it's done by artists it will always look good.

    Where is all this talk of the 'Ultimate Editions'? I've missed that.

    gez
  15. bobasho Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2002
    star 1
    I think I agree with you insidious. What is driving this ship here, the effects or the story? I feel that at a certain point, who cares about the visuals.

    I feel that it is impossible for the pt and ot to be cohesive visually. in the first scene of ANH, the minute those rebels prepare for vader to board the ship, i am gonna know i am watching a movie from the 70s.
  16. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    When you finish production on a film, it's done. Even Stanley Kubrick, who was more of a perfectionist than anyone else around, even he never went back and changed his films.

    Actually, Kubrik is rather known for significantly altering his films post release. For instance, after THE SHINING was poorly received by the critics, Kubrik re-edited significant portions of the film and re-released it a few weeks later. He did the same with 2001 when audiences reacted poorly to the film's original introduction which featured a documentary style narrator explaing what was going on.

    At the same time, Lucas is not interested in kowtowing to the typical Hollywood mindset which says that once a project is wrapped up, it's time to move on to your next paycheck. Lucas was one who correctly stated that a film is never actually finished, it's just eventually abandoned. Lucas is simply doing what any director would love to do and picking up his earlier projects where he left off.

    I mean, why should Lucas be forced to live with something he's dissatisfied with? There are things he would have liked to have done originally but lacked the time, money, and technology, and now that he has all three, he's completing a project he had to abandon over 20 years ago. And why shouldn't he? Even veteran director Robert Wise jumped at the chance to significantly alter and otherwise finish STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE for the exact same reasons, but I don't see anybody crying that his actions are doing a disservice to film history. Nor did people complain about Ridley Scott's re-edited version of BLADERUNNER. It's just another example of Lucas being unfarily held to a different standard.

    And for those of you whining that Lucas is trying to excise his work from the history of film, I have no doubt that he'll take the approach that Robert Wise did for his re-release of ST: TMP where the original versions of various scenes were included as supplemental material on the second disc.
  17. DARK_SCORE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 4
    But Durwood, Lucas has already amended the original films to give us his "definitive" vision - they were called the Special Editions. If Ridley Scott amended Bladerunner and then re-amended, re-released it and then tinkered with it some more then I'm sure that a few people would get irked by the whole thing. And besides, it's not a fair comparison - everyone knows that the strength of opinion bearing down on the Star Wars saga is much heavier than that weighing on Bladerunner - a unique, albeit much revered, sci-fi movie.

    And Scott's (and, I presume, Wise's) updates to their films were to amend storyline and directorial changes that were undertaken by the studio - out of the director's hands. This thread is about the rights and wrongs of the OT's visuals - and the ethics of Lucas arbitrarily amending them every 15 years or so because he thinks they need a spruce up.

    The whole issue of releasing and constantly re-releasing a film (primarily, let's face it, for reasons of increased revenue more than anything else) is highly distressing and artistically damaging.

    Will we look back on the arrival of the DVD and the decade that surrounded it as a time when directors felt they had carte blanche to amend their work - whether their audience approved or not? Amending films to improve them while maintaing the originals in their original state is one thing - but to re-write history is another, more dangerous, subject altogether.

    And whether yuou like it or not, these films are steadily being sanitized, diluted and bastardized - albeit by their original creator. But they're in the public domain now and in many senses belong to the public as much as their creator. To not allow the public access to what it has taken to its heart is wrong. And any discussion of a 'need' to rewrite the original Star Wars saga for the sake of a few extra dollars and a few extra CGI effects shots is also wrong. Totally wrong...

    DARKO
    :cool:
  18. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Well if Lucas wants to be wrong in that then so be it. It's his decision.


    Besides, it isn't like he's going to keep coming back to update the effects... He only did it the first time to bring it up to speed with the future prequels. Turns outthe effects of prequels were immensely better than the added scenes of the SEs. So now I say he should go back and update the effects just once more. As long as the saga flows smoothly visually, I don't think there will be any need to update the effects every decade, and I don't think GL feels that way, either.
  19. JMaster Luke Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    ok i didn't read all the post so if someone wrote something like this sorry.

    but i read some post like someone said you wouldn't take an old painting off the wall and paint over it. no you wouldn't

    but tell me this would you buy an old car and not upgrade it? If you have kids some day and they say "hey remember those cool trans ams. i wanna buy one"

    you guys buy a trans am but its old. your telling me your not gonna fix the engine if it needs fixing or remove the rust if it has rust?

    yeah some old things shouldn't be changed where as some old things should be changed.

    now if you dont wanna see a new star wars then dont get the new DVD addition. simple as that. maybe you will or wont get the original on DVD ever but for some of us want new changes and theres nothing wrong with that.

    before the PT i'd say leave the OT, but now the PT looks like its light years ahead of the OT so i want the OT fixed a bit.
  20. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I really have no problem if we get a newer OT and PT sometime in the future, as long as the movies are good. :)

    Aunecah
  21. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Dark Score has it. Completely.
  22. DARK_SCORE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 4
    I think I'm going to re-write 'Heartbreak Hotel' by Elvis Presley. I think it will sound a lot better with a few extra chords and some new words.
    Then I'm going to withdraw the original version of 'Heartbreak Hotel' from every single music shop and Presley CD release and replace it with my new version. Just because I think my new version is better...

    Happy now?!?


    DARKO
    :cool:
  23. JMaster Luke Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    you can go ahead and remake any elvis song you want. and some people will like it. (mabye 10)

    but theres always the original if ppl dont like yours. so instead of one choice now we have 2. just pick the one you like.
  24. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Except that George says he's not going to give us the original OT in a format that will last, DVD.
  25. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Durwood - it's just another example of Lucas being unfairly held to a different standard

    you do seem convinced that everyone is out to get poor George. Re-editing or changing a film has always been controversial, Lucas isn't the only one to get criticised - Spielberg was knocked for adding interior mothership scenes to the SE of Close Encounters. And of course similarly he was criticised for the changes to ET special edition. At least Spielberg has put both versions out on DVD.
    If a director makes changes that are good the public are okay with it, Coppola changed the Godfather films for TV, adding new scenes, but we can still get the originals on DVD. If you are going to change a much beloved film then the public has a right to voice their opinion.
    I just hope Lucas realises that enough people prefer the originals and releases them on DVD too.
    .

    But back to topic - the visual effects are directly related to the rest of the film, if the film has enough charm people don't notice the flaws in the FX. There's still something magical about the FX in Forbidden Planet. And it's interesting to see the different styles of each era. I think AOTC started to use digital stuff in a more impressionistic style which I liked, the seem to have gotten past certain worries and were being more artistic.

    gez
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