PT visuals "sub par" in 20 years?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by bobasho, Apr 28, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    The only good and necessary SE change was the new ROTJ ending. The rest of it is ridiculous, unnecessary and stands out like a sore thumb. CGI doesn't belong in movies that came out 20 years ago.
  2. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "the visual effects are directly related to the rest of the film, if the film has enough charm people don't notice the flaws in the FX."


    Then I guess there isn't a whole lot of charm in the OT, because I notice flaws in just about every effects shot. I'm not knocking ILM's work, mind you, it's just hard not to notice that the OT was made quite a while ago. Like it or not, the effects of the OT are filled with flaws.


    "I think I'm going to re-write 'Heartbreak Hotel' by Elvis Presley. I think it will sound a lot better with a few extra chords and some new words.
    Then I'm going to withdraw the original version of 'Heartbreak Hotel' from every single music shop and Presley CD release and replace it with my new version. Just because I think my new version is better..."



    The difference is, your not Elvis. If he were alive and wanted to rewrite his song, he'd have the right to. And George has the right to rewrite his own movie. But that's not even the issue here. Special effects are NOT the story, they enhance the story. They put you IN the story. They bring you into the world that George created. However, a song is, well, a song. It IS the story. So rewriting a song can't really be compared to updating special effects for a movie.
  3. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    He has the legal right to screw with his films, but does he have the artistic right to deprive the public of them in their original form? No.
  4. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    It also raises another awkward question which is - who has the right to change the films? Only the director? The Producer? Whoever owns the copyright?


    gez
  5. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "but does he have the artistic right to deprive the public of them in their original form? No."


    No offense, but who says? :p I think a creator has the right to do what he/she wants to do with his/her creation.


    I mean I have no problem with GL releasing the OEs on DVD, and in fact I promote it. But to say that he DOESN'T have the right to release an updated version is just as wrong.
  6. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    George can mess with his films all he wants. But depriving the public of the films they fell in love with is wrong any way you slice it. And that's what he's doing by not releasing the original OT.

    That South Park episode about this was so dead-on. George eventually was persuaded that he was wrong there. Hopefully that'll happen in real life.
  7. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    But Durwood, Lucas has already amended the original films to give us his "definitive" vision - they were called the Special Editions.

    Rumor has it that Lucas never actually stopped working on the Special Editions and that since 1997, he has kept at least one ILM team on the task of continuing to polish the original films.

    This thread is about the rights and wrongs of the OT's visuals - and the ethics of Lucas arbitrarily amending them every 15 years or so because he thinks they need a spruce up.

    I don't think ethics has anything to do with this. And his changes are not arbitrary.

    Will we look back on the arrival of the DVD and the decade that surrounded it as a time when directors felt they had carte blanche to amend their work - whether their audience approved or not?

    Audience approval is irrelevant. It's his work to do with as he sees fit.

    but to re-write history is another, more dangerous, subject altogether.

    First of all, he's not rewriting history. And secondly, oh, give me a break!

    But they're in the public domain now and in many senses belong to the public as much as their creator.

    That's absurd. The films no more belong to the public than I can play the bagpipes (and for the record, I don't know how to play the bagpipes).

    To not allow the public access to what it has taken to its heart is wrong.

    Morality has nothing to do with this. What Lucas is doing is neither right nor wrong, it just is. Besides, I have no doubt that he will include the original scenes as supplemental material.

    And any discussion of a 'need' to rewrite the original Star Wars saga for the sake of a few extra dollars and a few extra CGI effects shots is also wrong. Totally wrong...

    You just don't get it, do you?
  8. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    He has the legal right to screw with his films, but does he have the artistic right to deprive the public of them in their original form?

    Actually, he has the right to do whatever he damn well pleases. Get over it.
  9. DarthSil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2003
    star 4
    Sorry, but a South Park cartoon isn't going to convince George to do anything. ;) And you know good and well you're going to buy the OT, regardless.
  10. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, he has the right to do whatever he damn well pleases. Get over it.

    No self-respecting artist would deny the public access to a piece they love.

    And you know good and well you're going to buy the OT, regardless.

    Of course I will. If that's what it comes to, then I'll have to. But there's no reason at all to not release the original versions on DVD. He could do them barebones, put them exclusively on Lucasfilm.com, charge $30 each for them, and people would still buy them.
  11. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    No self-respecting artist would deny the public access to a piece they love.

    No self-respecting artist should be expected to live with work he is personally unhappy with. And when it comes right down to it, the public is a very small part of the equation.

    And while what Lucas is doing is perhaps unprecedented in the world of film, it is not unprecedented in the world of art. For instance, Ansel Adams was famous for continually tweaking his photos and re-releasing them every few years until he was completely happy with them. Instead of "depriving" the public of his work, Lucas is actually taking his right as an artist very seriously and improving his work until he is happy with the end result. Would you expect a true artist to do any less?
  12. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    I told you, I don't CARE what he does with them. Let him make them better, let him make them worse, I don't care one way or the other. But allow me to own the originals. To keep these classics out of the hands of the millions of people who enjoy them is wrong.
  13. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    But allow me to own the originals.

    Question: Why should your interests supercede those of the artist?

    To keep these classics out of the hands of the millions of people who enjoy them is wrong.

    Was Ansel Adams "wrong" for "depriving" the public of earlier versions of his famous prints? My point is, you seem to be blatantly ignoring the rights of the artist to decide how his work is preserved.
  14. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Question: Why should your interests supercede those of the artist?

    Why should his interests be to keep them from me? Why does he have to be a dick about it? When something hits a certain saturation point, it does enter the public domain, and the rights belong to the public as well. Not the legal or monetary rights, but the right to view it.

    And another issue is that Star Wars was the work and creation of many people, not just the one who walked away with the legal rights to it. To keep their work from the public is dissrespectful to them.
  15. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Why should his interests be to keep them from me? Why does he have to be a dick about it?

    Now now, no need to throw a childish temper tantrum.

    When something hits a certain saturation point, it does enter the public domain.

    Not in the least. Just because you happen to enjoy something doesn't give you any rights to it whatsoever. I'm not exactly sure where you came up with this theory, but it's nonsensical at best.

    And another issue is that Star Wars was the work and creation of many people, not just the one who walked away with the legal rights to it. To keep their work from the public is dissrespectful to them.

    Lucas is the creative genius behind the work in the first place, but I do see your point. At the same time, this work that you speak of has already been preserved on the LaserDisc releases that can still be found with relative ease if you're willing to look for them, not to mention released multiple times on VHS. The work is out there "in the public domain" as it were, and it's not like Lucas' rumored Ultimate Edition release is suddenly going to make all those copies vanish from the face of the earth.

    At the same time, I would be greatly surprised if Lucas does not recognize the historical significance of the different iterations of the saga over the years and I do not doubt that the different versions of various scenes will be made available in one way or another, most likely in a documentary format as part of the supplemental material.

    Still, I find it strange that you wish to assign some sinister motive to Lucas' innocuous actions.
  16. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Let's all just calm down, drop the personal references to each other and refocus on the question posed in this topic:

    Will the PTs visuals seems a little dated and silly in twenty years?
  17. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Just want to respond to that and I'll get back on topic.

    It's not childish to call George a dick, because that's what he'd acting like by not releasing the original OT. All the forms they're on now will degrade, especially VHS tapes. DVD's will not, at least, not until I'm dead and won't care anymore. You don't like the public domain idea, fine. But these artists work should be preserved in a lasting format. Not on VHS or LD, and not chooped up and placed into documentaries. In their entirety. His refusal to do so is a big "F You" to all the other people who shared a part in creating the OT, even if he doesn't mean to do that (which I don't think he does).

    Coppola released both versions of Apocalypse Now. Spielberg released both versions of E.T. and Close Encounters. Cameron released both versions of T2 and The Abyss. They recognize that people who loved the original versions might not like the new ones, or might prefer the old ones in spite of still liking the new ones, and so they make both the original and the re-edits available. Why can't George?
  18. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Right, last warning: get back on-topic now or don't post in here at all.

    The next person who posts off-topic earns the illustrious reward of a 48hr ban.

    You are not exempt from this Darth_Insidious.

    [face_plain]
  19. JediLegOBlock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2003
    star 1
    SW has not yet dated - that is part of the joy of the OT.

    I think the PT will date simply because there isn't really anything that spectactular with it. Yes, the CGI maybe highly advanced, but in the minds of the public EVERYTHING is CG these days.

    It's kind of like mass production to home craft. People will always prize home craft over mass production.
  20. Zombie_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 1
    SW has not yet dated

    Sure it has. Go back and watch the original Star Wars films, they're incredibly dated. The effects are of their time. Seen anyone use stop-motion in a film when it was presented as realistic or ground-breaking?

    Me either.

    Same thing for motion control-shot spaceships, static-paint-on-glass-mattes, or marionettes.

    And the PT effects will be just as dated in less time, simply because effects technology is advancing faster than ever. But that doesn't make them any less entertaining.

    Look at great films such as The Wizard of Oz, North By Northwest, 2001 (come on, admit it), Raiders of the Lost Ark, and yes . . even the Holy Trilogy. They all have dated effects.

    But they're still great.

    -ZM
  21. DARK_SCORE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 4
    In a nutshell, the OT still has the magic to help me happily suspend my disbelief about some of the less accomplished FX shots. I look at Star Wars and the Death Star feels real. The AT-ATs still feel real. And menacing. And scary.
    The Millennium Falcon is a bucket of bolts - in every shot - and it looks brilliant in all three movies. T

    That shot where Chewie dives the Falcon into the Bespin clouds and loops it back on itself to go and find Luke? That shot brings a shiver to my spine and a tear to my eye every time...

    It's about the Star Wars universe working on screen - and, in that respect, it does it totally. The FX work. They do their job - whether it's creating an asteroid field or an Imperial space station. It all makes sense to me.

    And, if you have doubts about the longevity of the OT's FX, look at other films of the era: Battlestar Galactica, The Black Hole, Battle Beyond The Stars, The Last Starfighter even Aliens and tell me that Star Wars hasn't transcended them.

    That's what I think anyway...

    DARKO
    :cool:
  22. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    OT actually was satisfying in more ways than the PT. I don't have any problems watching it and believing that all the techno-stuff that we saw in there were actually true. It's like with writing - good story can make up for techno-problems but techno-advances can't make up for poor story. ;)

    (You, of course, realize that I didn't say anything about the acting part - I think PT is okay in that category. :))

    Aunecah
  23. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The problem isn't so much that the OT's effects look dated but that they are qualitative inconsistent with the newer films. Lucas isn't trying to "modernize" the films just for the hell of it, he's trying to make the entire saga visually consistent, and in order to do that, he needs to either seriously downgrade the look of the prequels or bring the originals up to date. Since it would be silly to do the former, that really only leaves the latter.

    Lucas isn't looking at these films as two seperate but related trilogies as some fans are, he's looking at them as a single story told in six parts. Therefore, he wants each chapter to be stylistically consistent with the others. So whether or not the new digital effects look dated in 10 or 20 years is irrelevant since Lucas is more concerned with consistency at this point, and therefore, all the films will look consistently dated.
  24. J-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 4
    To answer the question on topic: YES.

    About the SE and such, I don't like them. They're just moneymakers and you know it. There was nos PT back them but Lucas still wanted to showcase ILM's new CGI stuff and release the "enhanced" films to show everybody his new portfolio. And I honestly think that it backfired on him, because some of the "improvements" were just awfull (Jabba, anyone?).

    There's hope, though. I think this new "SE" stuff will die in a few years just like the "Colorization" process died in the 80's. Anybody remember those days? Ted Turner made lots of money (and generated a lot of controverse) by digitally painting old black and white classics like Casablanca, Laurel and Hardy films and stuff. Giorgio Moroder killed Metropolis by colorizing it and re-scoring it with modern music. A lot of people (Spielberg, Lucas and Scorsese included) were horrified and created film preservation societies and such. Funny to think that years later the same people (except Scorsese, who is still a film lover) would do the things these guys are doing. (and I remember interviews by Spielberg saying that he would never wanted to see a CGI E.T. Lucas said the same about Yoda, I think)
  25. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    As has been pointed out, it's a completely different matter when the original director alters his own work.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.