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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT PT vs Academy Awards

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Hernalt, May 24, 2016.

  1. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I want to see if any of these awards were considered to be controversial, or less than fair, or had attached to them some intriguing drama behind the scenes between personalities, or conflict between priorities in the Academy that placed a thumb on the scale. Particularly with respect to ROTS, which was up against Peter Jackson's King Kong, and which of all PT has the highest user ratings. I think TPM was up against a more overwhelming experience in The Matrix. I am not surprised that Chicago took 4 in the 'SW categories', and Two Towers is my favorite LOTR. But does anyone else furrow their brow that King Kong took three, and ROTS none? ROTS was nominated for Best Makeup, and I don't know how that is differentiated from Best Costume. I don't seem to recall seeing a lot of "makeup" other than Palpatine's transformation. Thank you.

    SW77 won Best Art Direction-Set Decoration, Best Costume Design, Best Sound, Best Film Editing, Best Effects-Visual Effects, and Best Music-Original Score
    ESB won Best Sound

    In TPM's year, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/72nd_Academy_Awards
    Best Art Direction went to Sleepy Hollow
    Best Costume Design went to Topsy Turvy
    Best Sound went to The Matrix ; Best Sound Effects went to The Matrix
    Best Film Editing went to The Matrix
    Best Visual Effects went to The Matrix
    Best Original Score went to The Red Violin

    In AOTC's year, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/75th_Academy_Awards
    Best Art Direction went to Chicago
    Best Costume Design went to Chicago
    (no Best Sound) ; Best Sound Effects Editing went to Two Towers ; Best Sound Mixing went to Chicago
    Best Film Editing went to Chicago
    Best Visual Effects went to Two Towers
    Best Original Score went to Frida

    In ROTS's year, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/78th_Academy_Awards
    Best Art Direction went to Memoirs of a Geisha
    Best Costume Design went to Memoirs of a Geisha
    Best Sound Editing went to King Kong ; Best Sound Mixing went to King Kong
    Best Film Editing went to Crash
    Best Visual Effects went to King Kong
    Best Original Score went to Brokeback Mountain
     
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  2. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    The fact that all three prequels were snubbed in the Best Original Score category is almost a crime.

    And The Phantom Menace not receiving a Best Costume Design award? Nearly unthinkable, in my opinion.
     
  3. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    I furrow my brow at a few things -- including that.

    But as I just said in another thread, it's notable that ROTS places in the exact middle of the "All Time Worldwide" Box-Office takings:

    http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

    ....while PJ's "King Kong" is nowhere to be seen.


    Also, you must understand, films mainly clinch Oscars based on aggressive Oscar campaigns.

    More here:

    http://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-Return-King-Fought-Hard-Spent-Millions-Sweep-Oscars-41881.html

    And here:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2014/02/return-of-the-king-oscar-oral-history


    Basically, it's a very cutthroat business -- you have to push hard to succeed.

    And, as far as awards go, that has never really been Lucas' style, with perhaps one or two exceptions.

    Moreover, he burned a lot of his bridges when he left the DGA (Directors Guild of America) and the SAG (Screen Actors Guild) after fines were levied on him following the release of TESB.


    Here is a sample of his rage:

    "The Hollywood unions have been taken over by the same lawyers and accountants who took over the studios. When the Writers Guild was on strike, I couldn't cross the picket line in my function as a director in order to take care of 'American Graffiti' when the studio was chopping it up. I quit the Directors Guild because the union lawyers were locked in a traditional combat with the studio lawyers. The union doesn't care about its members. It cares about making fancy rules that sound good on paper and are totally impractical. They said Lucasfilm was a personal credit, not a corporate credit. My name is not George Lucasfilm any more than William Fox's name was Twentieth Century-Fox. On that technicality they sued me for $250,000. You can pollute half the Great Lakes and not get fined that much. When the DGA threatened to fine Irvin Kershner $25,000, we paid his fine. I consider it extortion. The day after I settled with the Directors Guild, the Writers Guild called up. At least their fine didn't all go into the business agents' pockets. Two-thirds went to writers."

    Source: p. 139, "George Lucas: Interviews", Edited by Sally Kline, University Press of Mississippi, 1999, interview conducted by Aljean Harmetz, 1983


    There has never been much love between George Lucas and authoritarian, bureaucratic, greedy film institutions -- what in the world do you think the plot details of TPM and Qui-Gon are all about?


    Indeed, even in this extract from "The Final Chapter" by J.W. Rinzler (the concluding piece to his "Making Of" book for ROTS), Lucas still exhibits a clean hatred of the worst of the two guilds which he quit:


    TUESDAY, JANUARY 18, 2005
    UJ: “Best Picture?” Lucas wonders aloud after someone asks him who’s going to win the Oscar.
    “Who the DGA [Directors Guild of America] picks will pretty much decide who gets it.”

    Ouch.


    Then there was his rant about the Oscars, last year, in which he had some tasty words to offer on the CBS' "This Morning" with Charlie Rose. I made a post about it near the time:

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...prequel-entries.50024767/page-2#post-52193730

    Copying from there:






    (talking -- in part -- about the snubbing of the Ava DuVernay film "Selma")

    CHARLIE ROSE: Do you go to the Oscars?

    GEORGE: Er, I don't go. I'm not a member there. Of the Academy.

    CHARLIE ROSE: There's some controversy this year as you know...

    GEORGE: There's always controversy. That's why I'm not there.


    And then a little further in:


    GEORGE: I think Hollywood's views on these issues are reasonably well-known if you forget what they say and see what you do. And what they do or what they say in e-mails and stuff. They're very much -- it is what it is. What can I say?

    GAYLE KING: I'm curious about your feelings about this. Do you see it as a snub, or do you see it as, "Listen, everybody had great performances and there were only X amount of slots left, available..."

    GEORGE: No. I don't see it that way. I see it as the -- I won't go into the conspiracy theory the way... -- the thing about the Academy is that it's a political campaign. It's not -- it has nothing to do with artistic endeavour. At all. It's a political campaign. It's like, y'know, why do we have a tendency to elect people who drift toward -- not the most talented and the best and brightest we have in the country? It's all political. It's who can you slam, who can you do this to. What it does is -- I think it hurts everybody.

    Clearly, Lucas has never had much time for a lot of these institutions that other people obsess over.

    And with the prequels, these institutions duly returned the sentiment.

    Just think about the costume snubbing...

    No agenda?
     
  4. AprilMayJune

    AprilMayJune Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2015
    I will never get over those films not getting a costume nomination. WTF FOREVER.
     
  5. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015

    I'm surprised that you left the warm Social thread, to come out to the cruel cruel PT forums![face_nail_biting]
     
  6. AprilMayJune

    AprilMayJune Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2015
    I know. I was feeling brave.
     
  7. Banana-Wan Kenobi

    Banana-Wan Kenobi Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2016
    What a brave act! You deserve a reward!
     
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  8. AprilMayJune

    AprilMayJune Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2015

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Inanna

    Inanna Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    I think we all can agree that the Academy is notorious for their snubs. I try to watch every film nominated for best picture, best actor and actress. IMO the Academy gets it right 10% of the time. IMO any group that says The Grand Budapest Hotel was the best picture that year are freakin crazy. I would look at the people's choice awards and do the comparison.
     
  10. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Excellent. I had heard of Lucas' difference with the DGA and of fines. Didn't know that resulted in a field of bias against Lucas products at the Academy Awards. How does this event and its timing affect or reveal anything about the fact that ESB got a single award while SW77 got 6? Is that suspect as well? And as for ROTJ's Best Visual Effects, it is listed separately on wikipedia from the other awards. I don't know if that reflects some special class or category, or if it is incompleteness on wiki's part.

    Ok, so PT. Assume there was no bias against Lucas products during ESB and ROTJ, and no thumbs on the scale, and that their performance against some "average" field of a mixture of drama, music, visual, costume and sound contenders merited no less than ONE award a piece. (I can easily see SW77's six as a blitzkrieg, in full view, on the senses of Academy voters that is not unlike ROTK's full court press, behind closed doors, on the same voters.) So assume one award is reasonable, or, not unreasonable, in a world where the DGA and SAG field of bias does not exist against Lucas products. (And I also have no clue how this trouble affects Lucas + Spielberg products. ROTLA got one.)

    If TPM "should" have won (no less than) ONE award, what would it be. Consider overall quality vis a vis competitors, but reject the field of bias.
    If AOTC "should" have won (no less than) ONE award, what would it be. Consider overall quality vis a vis competitors, but reject the field of bias.
    If ROTS "should" have won (no less than) ONE award, what would it be. Consider overall quality vis a vis competitors, but reject the field of bias.

    Thank you.

    (
    In ESB's year, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/53rd_Academy_Awards
    Best Art Direction went to Tess
    Best Costume Design went to Tess
    Best Sound went to Empire Strikes Back
    Best Film Editing went to Raging Bull
    Best Visual Effects went to Raiders of the Lost Ark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Best_Visual_Effects)
    Best Original Score went to Fame

    In ROTJ's year, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/56th_Academy_Awards
    Best Art Direction went to Fanny and Alexander
    Best Costume Design went to Fanny and Alexander
    Best Sound Mixing went to The Right Stuff ; Best Sound Editing went to The Right Stuff
    Best Film Editing went to The Right Stuff
    Best Visual Effects went to Return of the Jedi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Best_Visual_Effects)
    Best Original Score went to The Right Stuff
    )
     
  11. Straudenbecker

    Straudenbecker Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2015
    The PT were mostly snubbed. I am still mad about King Kong. The Academies are always rigged.Tom Hanks beating Morgan Freeman? That one really got to me.
     
  12. DarthAnakin96

    DarthAnakin96 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    I definitely feel these films deserve some kind of recognition, even if it's not an "academy award". I mean the amount of creativity and work that went into these films is pretty amazing.
     
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  13. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    So GL is anti Hollywood Guilds/Unions? Is that a reason?
     
  14. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    I think George sort of sees Hollywood movies or "big movie" things in general as unoriginal and not daring, not bold, not willing to experiment with what we accept as what constitutes cinema

    I can see that point of view for sure. Sometimes it isn't even the fault of the writers/directors but the companies themselves. So many movies these days come across as generic, run-of-the-mill presentations. Take Pacific Rim for example. Cool movie, was pretty popular when it came out - but what made it special? What made it stand out from other movies? Nothing. It's sort of faded into obscurity since

    And yet people are still talking about the OT and PT and had been even before 2012. I'm sure in no small part thanks to GL consciously trying to avoid conforming to the "guidelines" on how to "properly" make a film

    The greatness of Star Wars is that it's a film that's trying not to be a film, if that makes any sense. And you can definitely feel it stretching into a shape of its own

    That's why I'm pretty pleased with TFA. I know many are calling it indeed another Hollywood "cookie cutter shape" movie, but I at the very least and several others I know still see it as just as out there, although I confess I can see they were playing it safe, so to speak for the most part; nonetheless, my excitement remains high
     
  15. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    I totally disagree about PR. Yes we had giant monster films. Yes we had giant Mecha Anime vs fighting monsters. But never a live action based world United movie against alien monsters movie. Hopefully part 2 is better.
     
  16. JediChipKelly

    JediChipKelly Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    I stopped watching the Academy Awards when I was in high school and Dances with Wolves beat out Goodfellas. Scorsese loses for TaxiDriver, Raging Bull and Goodfellas, but wins for The Departed?

    That's why I take no offense anymore if a SW movie doesn't win.