PT vs OT

Discussion in 'Puerto Rico Star Wars FanForce' started by Uleq_Quinn, Jul 16, 2002.

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  1. Uleq_Quinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 1
    Reasons why PT has failed to some people (mine's) expectations:

    1. Lack of a good screen writer
    2. Lack of a strong Han Solo type of character, Han Solo is one of the reasons OT succeded.
    3. Lack of Darth Maul presence. GL never give him momentum. Maul never reflects a personality of his own. Insteed of becoming a great villian for the PT, Darth Maul falls to be a sorry excuse for a bad guy. And that realy makes me angry. Darth Maul had everything needed to become a strong character. He had that fearsome face, acrobatics, doubble edged ligthsaber, he even kills Qui-Gon.
    4.Jar Jar binks.
    and that brings back Darth Maul.
    Jar Jar have more screen time that Darth Maul!!!!.
    I don't hate Jar Jar, but whe get to see too much of him.


    On the other hand the OT had great story telling and good quemistry between characters .

    Don't get me wrong. I do like the PT, but the OT is just better....by a long shot.
    The only thing I dislike from the OT are the Ewoks...........grrrr Ewoks
  2. Corran_Horn_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 4
    I agree that the OT are better movies that the PT in many ways so I see where you are coming, but I'm gonna have to disagree in a couple of points.

    "Lack of a strong Han Solo type of character, Han Solo is one of the reasons OT succeded"

    Well, in my head Obi-Wan takes on the "role" of Han Solo, specially in EII. I like Obi-Wan as a character and I love Ewan's performance. He has pulled out his Jedi Cloak a convincing young version of sir Alec Guinness' character.

    To me, Obi-Wan is one of the reasons the PT is working. Because to me, they ARE working in their own way. To me, they have made watching the OT a new, more interesting experience. They complement the OT in was I hadn't imagined. Now every nuance of the OT, every stare, every movement has new, more powerful meaning.


    Oh and the other things, I LOVE EWOKS!!!!!


    Ah, and btw, welcome to the forum.

    Be sure to join the yahoo group and read the newbie thread, all conveniently located in the menu above.

  3. Uleq_Quinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 1
    I have read in the official page (starwars.com) that GL stated he wants the saga to be seen as a BIG movie starting from E1.
    Don't get me wrong, I love the PT, but GL failed to give the viewer (me for instance) the feeling it was all chronological writen.

    I will watch the movies like this:

    Episode 4 and 5, then the prequels and then episode six as the final chapter.
    That's the way the movies makes sense to me.
    And it's the order in wich I'm going to show them to my kids.

    In the other hand, Obi-Wan is a great character, I love him, but he is NOTHING like Han Solo.

    And I don't hate Ewoks, it's just that I can fit in my mind the fact Ewoks defeated some of the Empire's best troops.
  4. Jihad_MuadDib Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 1
    The OT is in fact better than the PT

    1. Better story telling
    2. Better actors

    Now there is something the PT has that I love

    The Sith IS stronger and the Jedi will be slaugther by them

    YYHHHEEAAA!!!!! WWWHOOOOHHHHOOOO!!!!!!
  5. Corran_Horn_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 4
    Better storytelling, sure. . .

    Better acting???

    I still cringe when I see Carrie Fisher's amazing acting in the Death Star shaft!! AAAAKKKK!!!

    The OT is, like ALL SW movies, filled with amazingly horrible acting. Mark Hamill during ANH, Carrie Fisher on drugs, Billy Dee shouldn't be called an actor, more like a cool black guy.

    I think that it is a hallmark of SW that you have one or two decent actors (Ford and Guinness, McGregor and McDarmind) and a whole bunch of mediocre acting that kinda works from time to time (like Portmand and Hayden)
  6. CeCe_Denowai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2002
    True Corran

    But I can see Jihad and Uleq's point.

    All of you are correct
  7. Jihad_MuadDib Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 1
    Indeed Corran.
    But I still think the OT cast is better
  8. Xanatos_nwo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 3
    I like em all. However due to the fact tht the OT is complete I like it more for the time being. Ill wait for Rpi 3 to make my final decision ;)

    About that point of yours regarding Darth Maul not getting too much screen pressence it has a reason. Lucas wants people to see how Sidious operates. He is a puppeteer. Using Maul and others(Dooku, and later Vader) to realize his wicked plans). Thats why GL made Maul that way

    However I say that the directions of the OT were better. And also the plot/script is miles away. But at leats AotC was miles better than TPM so we shall expect the same thing with Epi3.


    By the Way, WELCOME Hope you Enjoy this Board :D
  9. Ktulu_Terumo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    I have to agree with Uleq on Maul's lack of screen time.
    Whe could've got to see more of him, or at least hear him say something besides "yes master" and his line on corusant. I don't think that wouls afect in anyway if Lucas is showing how Sidious use others as pawns.

    How about Maul saying fearfull things to Obi-Wan while waiting for their duel, like I killed your master now is your turn or something more creative than that of course
  10. Xanatos_nwo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 3
    Yeah but then again. Look at Boba Fett. Litle screen time but managed to be known as a cult SW character. Same happens with Maul.
  11. darthoscuridad Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    .....OT all the way...

    Puedes intentar hacer un cult. por que no?

    pero en una pelicula que se llama The Phantom Menace...el malo debe ser una amenaza real...no un puppet...

    Y si este es el "primer" sith appretince en bune tiempo...pues debio haber tenido mas tiempo..more flesh...more dimension...

    Es el principio de la historia filmica!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    La poca utilizacion de dialogo mato mis expectativas...

    Nuff said..

    (hasta sabretooth en X-Men tuve mejor caracterizacion!!!)

  12. Ktulu_Terumo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Obscuridad, you just read my mind on the topic.
    Besides, Boba Fett becomes a cult 'cause of the EU stories and comics, same with Maul.
  13. Lord_Nyom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 2
    fijense, dicen que nada mejor que lo original.... pero...

    Las dos son buenas dentro de su micro-cosmo, deben verlo como si fueran dos tratamientos distintos (que verdaderamente lo son).

    Verdaderamente, entiendo que hay cosas que en las prequels falla, como hay cosas que en la original también. Asi que en vez de ponerse a comparar una con la otra, no pierdan el tiempo porque anyway, al finalizar la saga, se supone la vean como una sola, no como dos entidades separadas y en eso se va a ocupar el tio Georgy de que ambas consigan sinergía. (if he isn't a sloppy writer...) y también con la New Improved Superspecial Upgraded and Plot Fixed Classic Trilogy.

  14. Ktulu_Terumo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    True, Lord Nyom.
    Both trilogies are unique, special and great in their own way, but you have to see that GL vision of trying to feet them togheter have failed.
    I for instanse, will never see them as a BIG movie like GL wants. GL ruined that in several ways.
    For example, whar are going to see Anakin turn into Vader in E3, wich completely blows the shoking moment in ESB when Vader tells Luke that he is his father. There is not going to be any emotion there. Future generations are going to see that scene and say "yeah, I know". That's a slopy writer.

    Like I stated before, GL has a great imagination, he created a whole new universe, the Force, the Jedi and Sith, the ligthsaber, Darth Vader, Yoda. So many cool and great things came out of his mind. But he failed in putting those great things into an equaly great story. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I love star wars. But GL should have let other people help in his project, so that one day, whe can look at those six episodes and say, WOW A MASTERPIECE. But instead it's just a great sci-fi saga.
  15. Obi-Ian-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 3
    Ktulu...just a question....instead of blaming uncle lucas think to your self......could u have done it different so the moment when vader reveals to luke that he is his father would have been as surprising as it always was? Lets face it...eso no es una sorpresa para nadie....cualquier nenito lo sabe! what about futuras generaciones??? en mi opinion yo guardaria una triologia original y la pondria primero y luego la saga completa! eso es lo mejor que se puede hacer!!
  16. Lord_Nyom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 2
    Ok, cool pero entonces, si tu fueras Lucas, que habrias hecho para prevenir que se pierda la sorpresa en ESB?

    Acuerdate, que cuando hizo la primera trilogia no tenia planes en hacer la pre-quel, asi que pues!!! no necesitaba estar escondiendo el hecho de su paternidad.

    Ademas, es bien dificil en la epoca actual que aunque alguien no haya visto la pelicula, la gran mayoria saben que Vader es el padre de Luke.
  17. darthoscuridad Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    "Acuerdate, que cuando hizo la primera trilogia no tenia planes en hacer la pre-quel, asi que pues!!! no necesitaba estar escondiendo el hecho de su paternidad."

    Ahi esta, ese es el gran problema!!

    El jura que si, que el tenia en mente todo.

    GL es un EMBUSTERO! Esta haciendo historias "as he goes!"

    SI admitiera eso, pues para mi el PT seria mas valido.

    ADemas, si el hombre fuera tan bueno escribiendo, no tendria que hacer el nuevo special "iwantyourmoney" edition ese!

    El tener que añadir escendas a algo que ya esta hecho, para darle coherencia a lo que ya paso es SUPER SLOPPY WRITTING!!!

    A ver si Tolkien se arrepintio de algo y fue corriendo a rescribir Lord of The Rings?
    NO

    Gabriel Garcia Marquez le cambio algo a Cien Años de Soledad?
    NO

    No defiendan tanto a Lucas. Star WArs es lo que es por nosotros los fanaticos. Nosotros le damos la coherencia, hacemos foros, escribimos fanfics, etc....

    Lucas solo tuvo una idea...la llevo al screen, luego dejo que otras personas la dieran coherencia, veamos los creditos para esa obra maestra de la trilogia, EMpire Strikes Back:

    Full Cast and Crew for
    Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980)


    Directed by
    Irvin Kershner (no Lucas)

    Writing credits (in credits order)
    George Lucas (story) (story puede ser cualquier cosa, hasta escribi un parrafo sobre lo que se quiere)


    Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan
    (estos dos son los que se sentaron a escribir ese libreto basada en la "story" de Lucas)


    Produced by
    Jim Bloom (I) .... associate producer (as James Bloom)
    Gary Kurtz .... producer (este es el hombre detras de la vision de Lucas, el que metio el dinero antes que el hombre fuera famoso,financion a New Hope y esta pelicula, luego se fue, y ahi fue que Lucas hizo ROJ. Otra pelicula baja comparada con estas)
    George Lucas .... executive producer
    Rick McCallum (I) .... producer: special edition (por lo que ven este loco entra en los special edition, booo)
    Robert Watts (II) .... associate producer




    Mi punto, es que hay mas gente en esto. Y en la medida que Lucas tenia menos control, la historia fue dandose mejor. CUando se convirtio en un "control" freak, la trilogia ha ido decayendo. Lo peor, TPM.

    SI ven, en AOTC el hombre pidio ayuda...

    Full Cast and Crew for
    Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones (2002)

    Page 3 of 34


    Directed by
    George Lucas

    Writing credits (in credits order)
    George Lucas (story)
    George Lucas (screenplay) and
    Jonathan Hales (screenplay)*

    Mientras que en TPM se lo tiro "solito":
    Full Cast and Crew for
    Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999)


    Directed by
    George Lucas

    Writing credits
    George Lucas

    La teoria es que su viejo productor frenaba los deseos de Lucas y ponia las cosas en perspectiva, el nuevo (RIck) hace lo que LUcas diga...por que el que tiene los chavos ahora es Lucas...

    Full Cast and Crew for
    Star Wars (1977)



    Directed by
    George Lucas

    Writing credits
    George Lucas

    Produced by
    Gary Kurtz .... producer (aqui de nuevo el hombre con dinero al cual Lucas respondia antes)
    George Lucas .... executive producer
    Rick McCallum (I) .... producer: special editio (aqui el payaso que "produce" con el dinero de Lucas, el responde para Lucas.)

    ASi vemos, como Star Wars era un intetno genuino de hacer cine fresco e innovador y se ha convertido en la maquina de hacer dinero mas grande del mundo...

    PUEs, eso pasa,...a mi me sigue gustando, voy a ver lo que flata, comprare los dvd, pero no endiosare a Lucas...










  18. Lord_Nyom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 2
    Entiendo tu inquietud Darth Oscuridad, en diciembre pasado, al salir LOTR, pasé una epoca de rebeldía contra SW pero mayormente contra GL y su maquinaria de hacer dinero. Pues hay un website que se llama Ain-it-cool-news y en el foro posteé un mini ensayo, lo mas patético de todo es que 6 meses despues, volví a caer en su trampa :( ese es el precio de ser fan de SW.


    How i traded my Ewoks for an Hobbit


    I've been a fan of Star Wars since the original
    release in 1977, that's 25 years ago. Since that,
    I've been collecting almost every action figure,
    vehicle, book, comic, album, poster, statue, etc...
    just imagine how big is my collection. Besides the
    regular stuff found on stores, I also have an
    original Episode I trailer in 35mm and an 40'feet
    tall banner of Amidala, Qui-gon and Darth Maul
    used for promotions here on the island, just like
    the ones used in N.Y., both of them were a gift from
    some friends of mine. I even have the original
    trilogy in Laser Disc without never owning an
    player.

    As you can see I was a really hardcore Star Wars
    fan, until December 19th.... "The day of the Hobbit".
    The day I re-opened my eyes to Tolkien.

    I'll try to make this simple, my problem with Star
    Wars are not the movies (this not considering
    Episode I as an official Star Wars release, just
    joking, it is still a good movie but it never had the
    magic captured on the original trilogy and it also
    never filled our spectations. Ok, I saw it 8
    consecutive times, but that's another topic we can
    discuss some other day). Anyway, my concern is...
    the way uncle George is mistreating us, the fans,
    the ones responsible of converting SW in a cult,
    the ones who spend nearly every dime of our
    sallary in buying his stuff, the ones we've waited
    faithfully for every SW movie and only receiving an 2
    hour long I.L.M. demo reel (I can't deny it, great
    effects! Keep on doing a good job!) but without any
    "intelligent" content or even a good script.

    SW is a great concept, nobody can't deny it, but
    most of all, it was SIMPLE.
    It was just a group of perfect strangers united by an
    goal: defeat the corrupt government and during
    their journey, they mature as individuals while they
    become great friends and companions. (I think I've
    read something similar in LotR...)

    The filosofy of the force was great: an energy field
    generated by all living things, it surrounds and
    penetrates everything, binding the galaxy
    together... There were no midiclorians! Some
    things doesn't need more explanation than what
    they are intended to be, they just need to be kept
    SIMPLE.

    Ok, Jar Jar; love it or hate it, we can't do nothing
    about it, just forgive Lucas of his sins and accept
    his abominable creation. But are we capable of
    forgiving him the same mistakes he have done
    twice? Isn't Jar Jar the same mistake he did with
    the Ewoks on RotJ? I know he wanted to reach a
    younger audience and try to attract a new SW
    generation. The problem is that young kids doesn't
    like "monchichi look alike cute little bears" neither
    "dumb rabbit-horse breeded creatures". Kids are
    more intelligent than that, and they have good taste
    also. (Esto ha cambiado un poco en los ultimos 6 meses respecto a Jar-Jar)

    Let's change subject: collecting. Do you know how
    hard is for an SW collector to keep in pace with
    every variation imaginable on action figures? The
    original figures where not so great looking as
    today's but at least they weren't so many. At least
    they released an figure of almost every alien on the
    movies, the main characters with different clothing
    "as in the movie". I know it was great when they
    released the expanded universe figures with
    characters of the novels, comics and video games
    several years ago. But is it necessary to release so
    many variations of some characters, with same
    outfit, but in different positions? Or a Jedi Training
    Qui-gon or Obi-wan in cold weather outfit. Maybe
    that figure is from Episode I 1/2...

    Oth
  19. Corran_Horn_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 4
    Nooo, y despues se quejan de lo largo de mis posts. . .

    Dos cosas que me gustaria decir,

    creo que la saga de SW se deberia ver 4,5,6 y despues 1,2,3. La razon por esto, imho que las PT estan hechas para ser eso, una precuela de algo ya existente.

    Lo otro es que estoy de acuerdo con todo el GL bashing que han dicho. Fer instance, las SE se hicieron meramente para ganar moolah para hacer las PT. Ese tipo de cosas me enfogonan.
  20. Lord_Nyom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 2
  21. darthoscuridad Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    jejejejej

    sorry!!!

    Buen ensayo hermano!!!

    Y a Corran... I agree!

    So we are happy again!
  22. Obi-Ian-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 3
    Darthoscuridad....desgraciadamente not happy at all!

    El jura que si, que el tenia en mente todo.

    GL es un EMBUSTERO! Esta haciendo historias "as he goes!"

    SI admitiera eso, pues para mi el PT seria mas valido.

    ADemas, si el hombre fuera tan bueno escribiendo, no tendria que hacer el nuevo special "iwantyourmoney" edition ese!

    El tener que añadir escendas a algo que ya esta hecho, para darle coherencia a lo que ya paso es SUPER SLOPPY WRITTING!!!

    A ver si Tolkien se arrepintio de algo y fue corriendo a rescribir Lord of The Rings?
    NO

    Gabriel Garcia Marquez le cambio algo a Cien Años de Soledad?
    NO

    ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    Solo que hay varios problemas con lo que has dicho! Tolkien se tardo mucho en escribir LOTR incluso el si re-escribio.....lo que pasa es que pues el se tomo mas su tiempo con estas cosas.

    No es que Lucas sea un mal escritor por que tiene que arreglar las cosas...eso es simplemente ley de vida....cuantas veces no has hecho un proyecto que cuando lo entregaste te arrepentiste de un monton de cosas? que cosas no hubieras hecho diferente? cuanto darias por cambiarlas?....esto es lo mismo que le sucede al tio lucas punto. A lo mejor es extorcion a lo mejor no lo hace a mal...a lo mejor solo quiere hacer una gran historia, punto.

    Si tienes tantas quejas...no seas fan entonces.....lo que hacen es quitarle la magia a las peliculas con tanta critica...si no te gusta pues bien! que se va a hacer...es tu opinion contra la de muchos otros....por que los que le gustan aunque no lo creas son una multitud callada que simplemente no se atreve a hablar!

    Estoy de acuerdo con Nyom sobre las figuras...pero por lo menos el llego a un semi-acuerdo con sigo mismo...las que no esten...pues ni modo!

    Sigamos soñado con nuestro universo y dejemos de quejarnos ya que nada arreglamos......hablamos y hablamos y luego vuelve el dewback arrepentido con la cola entre las patas! :D

  23. Ktulu_Terumo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    Darth obscuridad, Lord Nyom, Corran Horn..words of wisdom.
    Ian, you are not barve enough to admit what they say is the truth.
    We are StarWars fan and whe will always be, but GL has taken advantage of that in so many ways, it's not fair, for us, the fans.

    Obsacuridad is rigth about GL saying he had it all figured out sinse the begining, bull#@$%%$#. He is making tohse movies for himself, he doesn't care about the fan. Why else you thinck he doesn't even consider the EU when making a movie? even for the fans sake, who had to look for other sources for years while he was spendig the millions WHE help him rase. Then he come backs with a silly PT , doesn't even respect other creators vision and change it all. Yes StarWars IS his life time project, but it is what it is today because of us. GL should have though a little about that before start filming the PT in his "I will do whatever I whant and if you don't like it f&^%ck off" attitude. He's egoism has made the PT fall into what they are a PT and not the part of a SAGA like he intended from the "begining".

    I love the Starwars concept, the movies AND the EU, some work in there is better than GL's.
    But I don't like GL lack of vision.

  24. darthoscuridad Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    Bueno...let the discussion continue...:

    Obi-Ian

    Lo que dices sobre Tolkien...

    Si se tomo el tiempo. Y ese es mi punto, el se tomo el tiempo, re-escribio, escribio, borro tacho y quito. Pero cuando saco a la luz su libro lo saco como esta. No fue sacando 60 versiones de Lord of the Rings hasta que dijo..."esa es la que es!"

    "...cuantas veces no has hecho un proyecto que cuando lo entregaste te arrepentiste de un monton de cosas? que cosas no hubieras hecho diferente? cuanto darias por cambiarlas?...."

    MIL VECES, pero eso no me da el derecho de ir a donde le profesor y decirle.. "Profe, como que eso que le di era lo que queria, pero al misma vez no...demelo de nuevo que yo lo cambio y se lo arreglo!" Dile eso a un profesor a ver que te dice!!!


    "esto es lo mismo que le sucede al tio lucas punto. A lo mejor es extorcion a lo mejor no lo hace a mal...a lo mejor solo quiere hacer una gran historia, punto."

    Bien, pues que la haga y se deje de vagancia!!!


    Si tienes tantas quejas...no seas fan entonces.....lo que hacen es quitarle la magia a las peliculas con tanta critica...si no te gusta pues bien! que se va a hacer...es tu opinion contra la de muchos otros....por que los que le gustan aunque no lo creas son una multitud callada que simplemente no se atreve a hablar!


    Now my friend...this is so childish from you!!!!

    El que me moleste como GL ha ido cambiando no quiere decir que no pueda ser fan. No dejare de ser fan de unas peliculas que me cautivaron en mi niñez. Pero si puedo que al creador de estas pelicuals se le esta acabando la gasolina. Y me entistece que sea por el mr.dinero. Lamentarme y decirlo en nada daña lo bueno que Lucas ha logrado, desde ILM hasta la saga original. Pero ser fan no significa ser ciego ante la realidad de GL hace tiempo esta jugando con nosotros. POr eso, por que somo fans, y eso me molesta. Por que sin mi el no tuviera imperio!!! Pues y a si a "la multidud callada" no les importa eso, pues a mi si. Lo triste es que esa multitud, seguira viendo solo la superficie y se perdera de tantas cosas.....pero ese es su problema no?


    Asi es la vida...y estoy acostumbrado.


    AHora los dejo, voy a ver la pelea de Bespin en Empire Strikes Back.

  25. Lord_Nyom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 2
    Did someone saw 2 weeks ago South Park episode, the one they rusted Lucas & Spielberg?
    The one they where planing to release Raiders Special Edition?

    They made a point in that episode and worst of all, it was sadly true what they where saying. Everybody should see it.

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