Lit Punishment

Discussion in 'Literature' started by General Immodet, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    The Jedi seek justice. Do they?
    Tahiri Veila killed Pellaeon. She escaped...
    Mara was an Imperial assassin. Afterwards, she was just accepted into the NR and the Jedi Order without being punished.
    Kyp Durron joined Exar Kun and destroyed Caride. Afterwards, he could still be a member of the Jedi Order.
    => The Jedi are not objective.
    => The Alliance/NR did punish captured Imperials.
    Grand Admiral Teshik got executed.

    Thoughts?
  2. COMPNOR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 2
    In my opinion, Kyp Durron should have--at the very least--been exiled to Myrkr , performing manual labor while being kept in solitary confinement.

    I think this is inspiration for another crossover idea: Star Wars/Cool Hand Luke.
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  3. Silas Nightstalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    Granted, Kyp wasn't himself. He was under the sway of the dark side, and even then, he destroyed an Imperial planet, which the New Republic were still at odds with at the time.
  4. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    I always wondered if the "sway of the dark side" reason would excuse Palpatine, had they arrested him.
  5. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    Interesting thought for an Infinities story. What would have happened if Palpatine had been arrested and made to stand trial?

    How would they contain Palpatine? I imagine a scene ala X-Men (Magneto, at the end of the movie, held in the transparent cage) --- I assume a cage for Palpatine would have to include Ysalamiri, or some other Force inhibiting substance.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    "The Force is used for knowledge and defense, never for aggression."

    I think that in principle, the Jedi would have to be careful meting out "justice" as the terms of "justice" are easily defined by the individual can easily cross over into revenge.

    Again, that's in principle, I'm not saying it never happens.

    As far as Palpatine, if he could be contained, it would be very difficult. Any containment facility for him would absolutely have to contain ysalamari.
  7. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Didn't Luke find a way to beat ysalamiri? I wouldn't be surprised at all if Palpatine figured it out. That's the only explanation I can think of for why Palpatine wouldn't wipe them all out.

    On the subject of captivity, part of the reason I actually want a TFU III is to see the Rebels method of holding Vader... and to see it fail miserably. Unless Starkiller's evil clone busts him out, in which case, I'd rather not see it :p
    Last edited by instantdeath, Jan 16, 2013
  8. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    The Jedi seek justice in the Force.

    This is very different from seeking justice within the boundaries of society and government. The Jedi definition of right and wrong is dependent upon their understanding of the Force. As a result, any deed, no matter how heinous, commited while under the sway of the dark side, can be forgiven. In the view of the Jedi the person in thrall is practically a different entity entirely, and if their remorse is sincere, can be forgiven entirely.

    The best parellel I see is the Catholic concept of confession. Any sin can be confessed, and assuming the grace of God, forgiven, in the eyes of gods and the church (this is obviously a simplification, apologies to any Catholics). However, the eyes of God are not those of the state. It is entirely possible to say, confess to a murder, and then still be found guilty in a court of law.

    Extending this to Star Wars the Jedi are priests, and they can forgive via the Force according to their personal judgment and the judgment of the order as a whole. There is absolutely no inherent or logical reason why this sort of decision should be considered to bind the state, and there is in fact no real evidence that, for most of Galactic History, it did. What we do know is that, for some unfathomable reason, Kevin J. Anderson decided that Luke Skywalker's decision to forgive Kyp Durron would be accepted by the state and as a result he faced no secular punishment. The sparring of other Jedi, such as Tahiri, follows from this specific precedent. This was, and remains, the single worst decision in the EU.

    FotJ tried to correct this problem by putting first Luke and then Tahiri on trial, but like most things in FotJ mucked up an otherwise good idea. The rest of the Jedi promptly totally missed the point of Luke's actions, and the Tahiri case is muddled enough to turn on complex legal technicalities that it really can't serve to make any point whatsoever.
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  9. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    In Empires End Luke intended to take him alive as well.
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  10. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    Maybe the powers that be could have cloned a Ysalamiri, however made it physically smaller ... say small rodent size, so then they could actually ... ahem ... insert the creature as internal spy if you get my drift. Thus 'inside' ... he could render Palpatine forceless. They greater chance of this operation occuring is highly dependant on Palpatine's preferences in private matters, most of which are unknown at this time.
  11. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    Kyp was kind of posessed, not the same as Palpatine
    Kyp was also an asshole. The way he behaves in NJO and other books despite having killed millions and forgiven by luke is ridicuolous. The lack of humility is a bit hard to believe.
  12. jedimaster203 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Kyp wasn't possessed, but it was definitely an external influence that was affecting him. I think of it as kind of like beind drugged at a party and doing something or somebody you regret. Ultimately, it was you who committed the action, but it doesn't necessarily make you criminally culpable. I haven't read the JAT in a long time, so I don't remember how willing Kyp was to accept that influence. Keep in mind, Kyp was a teenager who was literally raised in prison...he probably wasn't in the best place. Generally, courts tend to take mercy on emotionally damaged teens with extenuating circumstances.

    Mara and Tahiri were operating under the orders a legitimate heads of state. Just because their actions were deplorable, doesn't necesarily mean criminal.
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  13. Danzo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    I always felt that Revan should have received punishment. I mean the guy fell to the darkside (or was forced to turn but I can't stand that excuse myself), returned to the Republic and unleashed hell upon the galaxy. Finally they defeat him and actually manage to capture him alive but rather than return him to Coruscant and very publicly deal with him and his war crimes they instead wipe his memory and then place him in the military before re-training him in the Jedi ways, the two areas that contributed to his fall previously. Even after he defeats Malak he's touted as a hero with little to no repercussions for his actions.
  14. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    Indeed. Revan is another example of Jedi injustuce!
  15. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Didn't he lose his memories because Malak blew him up? Then the Jedi Council just programmed him with a new identity.
  16. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Essentially, the Jedi Council couldn't punish Revan. When his ship was hit by Malak, they needed the location of the Star Forge, information only Revan and Malak were aware of. Even if they were to heal him, it's not likely he would give up that information, and he's not exactly going to be an easy person to keep captive or interrogate. They wiped his mind and reprogrammed (though Kreia believed this was false, that it's impossible to program an identity or sense of self; according to her, they merely wiped away the past few years of his life, allowing his old identity to reemerge). They needed a living, willing Revan to lead them to the Star Forge, or they'd almost certainly be crushed by Malak's armies. Justice is a nice ideal, but it wasn't the right decision at that point. Jedi don't always think practically, but the decision to brainwash Revan rather than punish him was purely a practical one, not a decision to give him another chance.

    As for after Revan's redemption... that's harder to say. Thing is, Jedi are taught to believe in redemption. It's both a boon and a fatal flaw of their order. Revan could have easily taken up his old title upon killing Malak, used the Star Forge for himself, and likely taken over all of the known galaxy. Instead, he delivered them Malak's head and put himself at their mercy. By their own code, the Jedi can't just execute him. Perhaps they could give him over to the Republic to stand trial, but again, that's not really their way, for better or worse. He was one of theirs, so I suppose they felt he should be judged by their rules and regulations. Besides, for a short time, Revan was known as a hero. Executing him wouldn't be a great way to win quickly waning trust in the Jedi Order.

    It's similar to the Kyp Durron situation, except that Revan actually accomplished something meaningful. You have to wonder what the public
    Last edited by instantdeath, Jan 17, 2013
  17. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    The much-derided Revan novel actually does deal with the post-KOTOR consequences of Revan's rather unique redemption situation. Revan got into a bunch of arguments with the Jedi Council, hid from the public, and ultimately ended up pseudo-estranged from the Jedi Order (though this had a lot to do with his marraige in addition to lingering Sith issues). The council did consider exiling Revan, but decided against it - though in some sense Revan, living in obscurity via the crowds of Coruscant, was in a form of self-imposed exile anyway.

    As for the Republic's actions vis a vis Revan, media has a tendency to erase past sins. Revan saved the Republic from the Mandolorians (explicitly defying the Jedi Order in the process too), then turned on the Republic and acted to conquer it, only to turn back and save it again. It would be relatively easy for the Republic to produce a convincing narrative that Revan was manipulated into attacking the Republic by others, such as Malak and Sol Karath (which is in a strange way almost true, Revan was manipulated into attacking by the Sith Emperor) and absolving him of most of the blame. As far as the state is concerned winners write the history books, and Revan ended up on the winning side.

    Of course, subsequent TOR events muddle the situation even further. Revan's journey is one of astonishing back and forth from one moral extreme to the next.
  18. mulberry Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2009
    star 1
    Kyp was most certainly suffering from PTSD after his experiences in Kessel.I don't see how anyone could go through that and not go off the rails for a while.

    Frankly I feel Skywalker is at fault for Carida because he developed Kyp's force potential before ensuring Kyp was fully recovered from the severely traumatic event that had happened to him over the years. Did he really not know that Kyp would be so full of hate after seeing his parent die while they were all unjustly imprisoned to hard labor?? What did he think would happen?
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  19. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Untrue. No legal authority can order an individual to perform acts that are clearly illegal. Mara was of sound mind and old enough to know that murder is illegal, and she perfomed these acts anyway. Using the 'I was ordered to do so' doesn't hold any legal weight: it didn't work at Nuremburg, it didn't work for Lt Calley, it shouldn't work for Mara Jade. Tahiri's case might be a bit differrent, because I don't remember ifJacen actually ordered her to kill Paelleon or if she just did that on her own accord.

    I've not read FotJ, but Tahiri's trial could have been a compelling story, had LFL taken the time to develop the plot. Unfortunately, there are few fans who would have wanted to read a 'Grisham' EU story. If I've learned anything from the EU it is this: we don't seem to want morally ambiguous problems. Any trial story would have opened the Jedi up for the very questions we are raising, and we must not have questions about the Jedi in the EU.
  20. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    The public (the citizens of the Galaxy) must want to see justice done!
    The Jedi and the Sith already caused too many wars!
    The Bothans did want to take revenge on the Vong after the YV war.
    If you were a citizen of the Imperial Remnant, wouldn't you want to see the one who killed your leader punished?
    People were so traumatized after the destruction of Alderaan.
    Kyp Durron did destroy Caride and nobody seemed to complain...
  21. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    The empire did complain about the destruction of Carida. The Moff Council of the Imperial Remnant indicted Kyp Durron on the charge of planetary genocide. Kyp, however, is not a resident of imperial space, the Empire had no ability to punish him. They did, however, ask for Kyp to be extradited to Imperial space so they could do so. Fate of the Jedi explains all of this, and Admiral Daala mentions to Luke that she could allow this charge to go through (now there were a lot of very good political arguments why not to do that, even for someone who hated the Jedi).

    And yes, Carida's canonical population is not especially large. It's listed at a mere 25 million, though this is one of those somewhat old RPG numbers like now seems rather suspect (like Tatooine's 200,000). Alderaan is 2 billion dead. Byss, destroyed by 'accident' is ten times that. Humbarine, an ecumenopolis struck by Base Delta Bombardment during the Clone Wars was an ecumenopolis that presumably had tens of billions of inhabitants. However, we we're talking about liquidating all life on an entire planet I really don't think the raw numbers are the key.

    While this is true, under an authoritarian state such as the Empire it is not clear what really qualifies as 'illegal.' Mara's position as Emperor's Hand apparently granted her all sorts of immunity, and immunity that was no doubt shared to a less degree by any nuber of Imperial Intelligence, ISB, COMPNOR, and other Imperial operatives. Many of these people were implicitly pardoned for their 'crimes' committed during imperial service when they either joined the rebellion, ultimately surrendered under the warlords, or simply slipped away into obscurity. Mara Jade broadly falls into this class. The New Republic apparently chose to punish only a very small numberof raher egregious offenders who were guilty of the Star Wars equivalent of war crimes or crimes against humanity.

    Tahiri's case is very muddled. In particular, while the text strongly suggests she did believe in Jacen's cause and took action agaisnt Pellaeon of her own will, she can make a rather strong claim of being under duress - that her contact to the Force with Jacen allowed her to simply reach out and murder her halfway across the Fondor system if he so wished. I don't personally buy this argument but it has been advanced.

    Ultimately the Force muddles legal situations in certain ways because it calls personal will into question in much the same manner as any sort of reliable mind control methodology (Star Wars has others). More significantly our understanding of the legal system, government structure, and bureaucracy of Star Wars isn't sufficently detailed to tell a Grisham style legal thriller in the universe (which is a problem in its own right but more or less doomed the Tahirir trial from the point of conception).

    FotJ was intended to raise some questions about the Jedi, at least Allston did in Outcast. Unfortnately the series chose to dodge them entirely by a combination of simple bad plotting and a viscious act of character assassination agaisnt Admiral Daala. Sure there was plenty of evidence that she was already insane, but making this a major plot point and using it to bail out the Jedi Order didn't make anyone in the galaxy look good.
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  22. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    Have you guys noticed that with all the light side adage of defense, never attack, etc.
    Every single scene in the movie has the 'good' guys ignite their lightsabers first?
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  23. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Luke is not responsible. KJA is :p
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  24. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Kinda hard to punish Jade when there are no definitive records on who she killed. If she killed any of the Rebel high command or something like that, then they could punish her. As for Tahiri, I can't speculate since I haven't finished that fotj series yet.
  25. Jedifirefly5 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
    Anakin Skywalker is the only person in the entire galaxy ever to be punished for anything.