Lit Punishment

Danzo · Jan 18, 2013

DARTH_MU said: ↑

Have you guys noticed that with all the light side adage of defense, never attack, etc.
Every single scene in the movie has the 'good' guys ignite their lightsabers first?
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Not entirely true. Maul ignites before Obi and Qui-Gon, Dooku ignites before Yoda and Vader already had his blade lit when Obi meets him aboard the Death Star.

rumsmuggler · Jan 19, 2013

Jedifirefly5 said: ↑

Anakin Skywalker is the only person in the entire galaxy ever to be punished for anything.
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Not in the land of the living..lol

General Immodet · Jan 19, 2013

DARTH_MU said: ↑

Have you guys noticed that with all the light side adage of defense, never attack, etc.
Every single scene in the movie has the 'good' guys ignite their lightsabers first?
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Actually, I had not noticed! Good comment!

General Immodet · Jan 19, 2013

Jedifirefly5 said: ↑

Anakin Skywalker is the only person in the entire galaxy ever to be punished for anything.
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He died, so he does not count.

General Immodet · Jan 19, 2013

Mechalich said: ↑

General Immodet said:

If you were a citizen of the Imperial Remnant, wouldn't you want to see the one who killed your leader punished?
People were so traumatized after the destruction of Alderaan.
Kyp Durron did destroy Caride and nobody seemed to complain...
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The empire did complain about the destruction of Carida. The Moff Council of the Imperial Remnant indicted Kyp Durron on the charge of planetary genocide. Kyp, however, is not a resident of imperial space, the Empire had no ability to punish him. They did, however, ask for Kyp to be extradited to Imperial space so they could do so. Fate of the Jedi explains all of this, and Admiral Daala mentions to Luke that she could allow this charge to go through (now there were a lot of very good political arguments why not to do that, even for someone who hated the Jedi).

And yes, Carida's canonical population is not especially large. It's listed at a mere 25 million, though this is one of those somewhat old RPG numbers like now seems rather suspect (like Tatooine's 200,000). Alderaan is 2 billion dead. Byss, destroyed by 'accident' is ten times that. Humbarine, an ecumenopolis struck by Base Delta Bombardment during the Clone Wars was an ecumenopolis that presumably had tens of billions of inhabitants. However, we we're talking about liquidating all life on an entire planet I really don't think the raw numbers are the key.

SiouxFan said:

Untrue. No legal authority can order an individual to perform acts that are clearly illegal. Mara was of sound mind and old enough to know that murder is illegal, and she perfomed these acts anyway. Using the 'I was ordered to do so' doesn't hold any legal weight: it didn't work at Nuremburg, it didn't work for Lt Calley, it shouldn't work for Mara Jade.
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While this is true, under an authoritarian state such as the Empire it is not clear what really qualifies as 'illegal.' Mara's position as Emperor's Hand apparently granted her all sorts of immunity, and immunity that was no doubt shared to a less degree by any nuber of Imperial Intelligence, ISB, COMPNOR, and other Imperial operatives. Many of these people were implicitly pardoned for their 'crimes' committed during imperial service when they either joined the rebellion, ultimately surrendered under the warlords, or simply slipped away into obscurity. Mara Jade broadly falls into this class. The New Republic apparently chose to punish only a very small numberof raher egregious offenders who were guilty of the Star Wars equivalent of war crimes or crimes against humanity.

SiouxFan said:

Tahiri's case might be a bit differrent, because I don't remember ifJacen actually ordered her to kill Paelleon or if she just did that on her own accord.

I've not read FotJ, but Tahiri's trial could have been a compelling story, had LFL taken the time to develop the plot. Unfortunately, there are few fans who would have wanted to read a 'Grisham' EU story. If I've learned anything from the EU it is this: we don't seem to want morally ambiguous problems. Any trial story would have opened the Jedi up for the very questions we are raising, and we must not have questions about the Jedi in the EU.
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Tahiri's case is very muddled. In particular, while the text strongly suggests she did believe in Jacen's cause and took action agaisnt Pellaeon of her own will, she can make a rather strong claim of being under duress - that her contact to the Force with Jacen allowed her to simply reach out and murder her halfway across the Fondor system if he so wished. I don't personally buy this argument but it has been advanced.

Ultimately the Force muddles legal situations in certain ways because it calls personal will into question in much the same manner as any sort of reliable mind control methodology (Star Wars has others). More significantly our understanding of the legal system, government structure, and bureaucracy of Star Wars isn't sufficently detailed to tell a Grisham style legal thriller in the universe (which is a problem in its own right but more or less doomed the Tahirir trial from the point of conception).

FotJ was intended to raise some questions about the Jedi, at least Allston did in Outcast. Unfortnately the series chose to dodge them entirely by a combination of simple bad plotting and a viscious act of character assassination agaisnt Admiral Daala. Sure there was plenty of evidence that she was already insane, but making this a major plot point and using it to bail out the Jedi Order didn't make anyone in the galaxy look good.
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Right, Byss! Forogy about that!
They should still publish that comic about Umak Leth escaping the destruction of Byss and Fett tracking him down.

kataja · Jan 19, 2013

jedimaster203 said:

Kyp wasn't possessed, but it was definitely an external influence that was affecting him. I think of it as kind of like beind drugged at a party and doing something or somebody you regret. Ultimately, it was you who committed the action, but it doesn't necessarily make you criminally culpable. I haven't read the JAT in a long time, so I don't remember how willing Kyp was to accept that influence. Keep in mind, Kyp was a teenager who was literally raised in prison...he probably wasn't in the best place. Generally, courts tend to take mercy on emotionally damaged teens with extenuating circumstances.

Mara and Tahiri were operating under the orders a legitimate heads of state. Just because their actions were deplorable, doesn't necesarily mean criminal.
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I like your take on this. While I have a few GFFA matters that makes me wanna scream and bang my head into the desk, I generally think it's more fruitful to try to find explanation why the characters do what they do than to elaborate all the good reasons why they shouldn't have.

mulberry said:

Frankly I feel Skywalker is at fault for Carida because he developed Kyp's force potential before ensuring Kyp was fully recovered from the severely traumatic event that had happened to him over the years. Did he really not know that Kyp would be so full of hate after seeing his parent die while they were all unjustly imprisoned to hard labor?? What did he think would happen?
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Considering most people in GFFA don't need to recover from no matter how traumatizing experiments, I'd say he was in good faith. Also, he hardly had a Jedi exam - yet he had to take the job of Jedi Master since no one else could or would - you can't expect him to have a psychology exam too

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Lit Punishment

Danzo Jedi Knight

rumsmuggler Chosen One

General Immodet Jedi Master

General Immodet Jedi Master

General Immodet Jedi Master

kataja Jedi Master