San Joaquin, CA Purpose of life?

funny looking heads? anal probes? no, i have no idea what you are talking about.

liz, that was a very intelligent and thoughtful answer. but what is this "morally right" of which you speak? that is very subjective.

as far as the metaphysical afterlife, i fluctuate between the view of "nothing, game over" and "you get what you deserve/what you think you deserve" - for nice people, it comforts me to think that if they believe they will get something nice afterwards, that they should. for really rotten people, it disturbs me to think they might get something nice, just because they think they should, and suffer no consequences of their rotten behavior, which seems most unjust. i have a mental picture of my afterlife, if i get such a thing, consisting of me sitting in a small room, mentally tearing myself to pieces for things i've done or said that i don't think were right, regardless of whether they are long forgotten (or ever even noticed) by those i feel i did wrong...

no, wait, i do that now...

if karma is a factor, i anticipate a lot of really large black widows, all lined up waiting for their turn to step on me... *shudder*

as for seeing things in my head, i don't seem to be able to access as much data as i used to. which is a shame, i'm sure there are some things rattling around in there that would make me smile, i just can't remember them very well any more.

 

I think that life is a long series of tests, to make us stronger. I think that we all have an infinite amount of power behind us, which not many people understand or take advantage of. In my short life so far(24 years of many tests, with more negative outcomes than good ones), I have went through many obstacles, and many trials. I think those trials are a part of the purpose of life. (I'm not trying to force anything on anyone with what I'm about to write from here on, so if I word things weird-I can't word my thoughts as well as liz- then PLEASE don't take it the wrong way). That's what I find so beautiful about my belief system, the blessing of free-will. It's up to me whether I want to believe in Christ, or believe in the wiccan religion, or believe in buddha and his teachings. I think our choices add to the purpose of life. What we choose to do, or believe, or follow is what gives us purpose.

ps- Thanks Liz, for what you wrote. You greatly inspire me.

 

free will... oh YES!

now, if i could just use it to find something to believe in...

i have a veritable hodge-podge concept of TRUTH, but have failed to find anything spiritually, um, inspiring. money is nice, if you have it, but not the answer. "stuff" is cool, but you have to find somewhere to put it. and thus far, people have been a bit of a disappointment.

small wonder i always feel lost, for lack of a better word. but i won't pay lip service to what isn't real to me. that just makes me feel sillier than i already am, not saved.

 

Anybody else catch this?

not to mention that many things that might make me, or others "happy," i don't even consider to be morally right.

What's that all about???

Anyway, the devaluization of "feelings" and "emotions" is one of the reasons I walked away from organized religion and its hypocracy after growing up entangled in it for the first 18 years of my life due to my parents being heavily involved as leaders, pastors, and then leaders again in two local churches. After having religion shoved down my throat and being forced to participate excessively for that many number of years and seeing how human (meaning imperfect) and how influenced by "feelings", "emotions", "beliefs", "senses", "reasoning", "logic"(whatever name you choose to use for what influences our decision making process and understanding of right/wrong) the "so-called" leader's of those religious organizations were by their own biases...I walked away and swore to be lead by no human individual ever again nor their spiritual interpretations open to bias based and personal opinion.

I believe the more life experiences a person possesses(those both good and bad), the more understanding it is possible for them to possess of human existance and the human experience.

The whole "series of tests" ideology, I'm not too sure about, nor the whole afterlife bit. But I do like that quote used in the opening shots of Gladiator when he says "what we do in this life will echo in eternityyyyyyy"(or something like that, wish I had the movie) and then goes off to kill/slaughter like 200+ people."...Arghhhhhhh...now that's what I'm talking about...Arghhhhhhhh...that's how I want to go out!! Momma, I wanna be a gladiator<in a whiny tone>.

And please nobody take what I've said too seriously because I don't, this is just my sharing of thoughts not jabs at anyone. If you get to know me good and long enough you'll soon realize I try to not take anything in life too seriously. More of just trying to enjoy it as others have expressed here and help people as I can again as others have expressed. Taking us back to the whole "happiness in life by helping others and enjoying it" which I believe there is value in.

Now, I've got a day off to go and enjoy as a fellow Veteran. "GO NAVY"

 

I, in all ways possible, HATE organized religion. I wasn't talking about religion. I was talking about a spiritual relationship between God and myself. I totally know what you're talking about, when it comes to legalistic, hypocritical Christians -I've seen my share-, but my arguments with that is this: Us Christians are quite odd because, the be honest, we're the worst people you'll ever meet. We're liars, murderers, and downright horrible people. What sets us aside is the desire to change that. We strive to rid ourselves of the hellish faults that have held us back for all of our lives so far. I think that has NOTHING to do with any pastor or church leader. I think church is something to help us get into the habit or giving God the credit that he deserves. That's just what I believe though, I'm in no way trying to force anyone to adopt my beliefs.

 

>>Purpose of human life? or all life. Physical or spiritual? If all life then can the spiritual aspects be taken out if we talk of plants? Would a tree or blade of greass have a spiirtual side? That goes into another question.<<

That depends upon each individual's personal beliefs - probably personal spiritual beliefs. For thousands of years, the questions of "the purpose of life?" and "what qualifies as life?" have been unavoidably intertwined with spiritual belief systems, so I think we're all just throwing out some ideas.

>>What if when we die, we just ceast existing. That's all. Nothing more. No afterlife, no nothing. Just ceasing?<<

But what if there is an afterlife? What if??

There is no question in my mind, but I'm not saying that all others should agree with me. You know why? Because I can't change other people's minds, and it's not my job to. I don't even like having these conversations. But I can't sit by and pretend not to have an opinion when I myself have purpose, and direction. Questions? Yes. Qualms? Absolutely. But I have PEACE. In my life, I have not experienced anything else quite as fulfilling as peace.

>>Curious as to the "afterlife" you're refering to Liz_Skywalker?<<

I believe in heaven and hell. I believe that when people die, they will go to one place or the other. I don't believe that someone should adopt a religion simply because someone has made a case for "hellfire and damnation," and now they're scared. Absolutely not. But when we speak of things like, "purpose of life?"... I don't believe that hell is somewhere that any being wants to be. Not because of fiery torment, but because I believe that "hell" is really an eternity of regret - that one wasted his/her life on Earth, and is now eternally and irrevocably separated from where he/she should have been - heaven. Sometimes I don't even think that "hellfire" is meant to be literal, but much more metaphorical.

>>liz, that was a very intelligent and thoughtful answer. but what is this "morally right" of which you speak? that is very subjective.<<

thank you for the compliment, i'll honestly try my best not to take it as an invitation to blabber on forever, which i have a *slight* tendency toward doing already

Right and wrong can be subjective, particularly when looking for the error of it. I understand that many things can come across as gray, versus black and white. But we ARE all born with a conscience. We all know that we shouldn't murder our little sister in her crib, or lie to our parents, or sleep with our best friend's spouse. These are beliefs that were inborn in me, and instilled as a child, and have also been laid out for thousands of years in the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament in the Bible). However, as a Christian, I am only truly bound by two things: love God and love others. That is where the confusion can set in, and things can become subjective. And that is where personal spiritual relations come into play, at least for myself. This is something that I could theorize on for hours so I will stop now.

>>"you get what you deserve/what you think you deserve" - for nice people, it comforts me to think that if they believe they will get something nice afterwards, that they should. for really rotten people, it disturbs me to think they might get something nice, just because they think they should, and suffer no consequences of their rotten behavior, which seems most unjust.<<

who decides what they should get? and who determines who is "nice" and who is "rotten?" seems very subjective to me. sometimes "nice" people have had every advantage in life, and if they weren't nice, the rest of us would think that they suck because they should be nicer. sometimes "nice" people have simply made better decisions in their lives. sometimes "rotten" people have had to deal with indescribable hardships that no other living person knows about. so who gets to decide by what rule these people are judged? This is where I am going to slip in SW jargon. "Only a Sith deals in abs

 

< I think I've answered this already but in case I haven't I will continue a little further. Say I have a friend who likes someone else's spouse, and they have an affair. The friend will probably be happy about that, at least for a while. Say I really want a new DVD, but I don't have any money, so I steal it. I'll be happy that I got it, and that I got away with the theft, right? When Jerry and I are fighting, am I focused on the fact that I am "happy" or "in love"? Or am I just really pissed off? If I based my marriage upon whether or not I was "happy" I'd've been divorced 12 times by now. That is my point about the subjectivism of "happiness" and the danger of relativism. And I'm not devaluing human emotion, on the contrary, like I said before I think they're key to our experience here. But one can't base existence upon them because they are all temporary, subjective, and sometimes even irrelevant. >

...interesting analogies.
a moral compass is a flimsy thing... i suppose if you feel you are doing wrong, or doing harm to others, then it probably is wrong. but what of those who don't see anything wrong with their actions, are they doing wrong? and deception, if no-one knows, is it wrong? and again, who decides?

i am usually more or less guided by my conscience, if what i want or what i am doing troubles me, i usually don't do it. if i do, i feel guilty, and there's something else to rip myself to shreds over.

as spiritual credos go, i have always liked "and you harm none, do what you will."

 

I think something to consider here is that "meaning of life" might be as myriad as all our own lives. What I value isn't--by definition--universal.

Anyway, this discussion made me think of a section in a book I value, called Comfortable With Uncertainty, on Buddhism, which reminds me that when I say "pursuit of happiness" as a point to life, I don't mean material happiness, but rather the happiness that comes with being ok with the knowledge that what life throws us is ever-changing, and the way to be balanced and happy is to accept that it is so:

...we look for happiness in all the wrong places. The Buddha called this habit "mistaking suffering for happiness." We become habituated to reaching for something to ease the edginess of the moment. Thus we become less and less able to reside with even the most fleeting uneasiness or discomfort. What begins as a slight shift of energy--a minor tightening in our stomach, a vague indefinable feeling that something bad is about to happen--escalates into addiction. This is our way of trying to make life predictable. Because we mistake what always results in suffering to be what brings us happiness, we remain stuck in that repititious habit of escalating our dissatisfaction

In other words, I should rephrase my line about "happiness." By "happiness" I don't mean trying to achieve, in life, a stable and perpetual state of happiness (like being blissfully drugged up, as was suggested earlier). That's unreasonable, and will--as the above indicates--result only in more unhappiness for me (and others around me). We all want to hold onto the happy moments, the comfort, the warmth, the positive...but none of that lasts. Nor does the discomfort, the cold, or the sad moments. All is in flux. So, maybe what I should have said is that the purpose of life (if there is one) is learning to "roll with it"...to look at what happens always as a passing thing--the light, the dark, all of it--and to learn to remain balanced within the motion of life. And to help others to find their own balance as well, and to know we can't control others to help them--we can only help illuminate a path. Realizing that all things pass, good and bad, and that none of us will have that perfect happiness and stability we crave, is freeing, in a way. Suddenly, you don't have to hold onto things as hard, or fear things that are "bad" or "painful" as much. Because things always change and move and flex, and as long as we do so with them, we'll not be broken by them. And I think it's the beginning of compassion for others and ourselves, to acknowledge we're all afraid of change and pain and loss, and we're all going to experience them. So, the secret to living our lives fully in the world is to admit this, and live with that knowledge, rather than in spite of it.

Ok, I'll turn pseudo-Jedi mode off now.

Alternatively, the meaning of life is to collect as many toys as possible. I could go with that.

 

Yeah, what Kai said, essentially. That's why I said Happiness, I didn't mean simple material "happiness," but rather something on a more fundamental level. Perhaps not so eloquently put as others have done (okay, definitely not as eloquently put as others have done), but it's the capital "H" that I was speaking about... or typing about, a more spiritual "H" if you will.

It's a Zen Buddhism kind of thing actually; from simple statements we make our own interpretations, and in turn we learn about ourselves based on our own conclusions.


But Toys are good too.



And something else as well, I believe it was four rather unorthodox prophets who said it best,
"All you need is Love."

 

Wow!!! You guys are awesome. I wish we talked like this at the get togethers. But then they'd probably all erupt into fighting. Arghhhh....I want to be a gladiator!!!
Cruzer out...cause Liz types to much. Just kidd'n Liz.

Gladiator for Life!!!...or maybe I should say "of life".

 

I certainly do enjoy conversations which consist of more than Han Solo's underwear(j/k, but you know what I mean). I enjoy DISCUSSIONS about things like this, and hope to have more of them. I like the fact that our group is made up of people with so many different outlooks. It'd be boring if everyone liked the same things as I do. Oh well, off to the Ren Faire. 2 1/2 hours late, but alas, we are on our way

 

Well, I guess you guys have missed the times when we have had this type of discussion. Or you were busy hitting each other with sticks.

 

Hitting each other with sticks are good too.

 

You know what? I missed this the first time around! You said (before I said it) exactly what I was getting at in my last post, when I was trying to explain what I'd meant by "happiness"...that true "happiness" isn't being safe or comfortable, or loved, or whatever--true happiness is being ok with the knowledge that nothing in life is permanent. Of being ok with change. Of being able to let go of trying to control our lives and freeze our lives in the areas that make us "happy"...because inevitably those areas will shift. So, the secret to being happy, or fulfilled, or complete in life is to live it, knowing that we can't, and shouldn't, attempt to freeze-frame life, even in the areas we like the most. That's where the depression and unhappiness come from, from trying to hold onto something that is--by its very nature--changeable. Unfortunately, I'm a person who has a hugely hard time with "letting go" and "moving on" and change. It terrifies me. But on an intellectual level, I recognize the trap. The more I hold onto things, the more pain I cause myself, and it still accomplishes nothing.

(Gratuitous and silly quote: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers...)

We need a word that isn't "happiness" to get at this concept. Like the Wook attempted by saying Happiness-with-a-capital-H.

Speaking of philosophy, has anybody else picked up "The Dharma of Star Wars"? It's basically Buddhism as seen through the lens of the SW universe, and talks about a lot of these things through a rather fandom friendly metaphor. I've really enjoyed it.

 

Very well put, Kai, I agree completely with what you wrote about happiness, etc. Seriously though, what you said is really how I define "peace."

And I read the Dharma of Star Wars online a while back (may have not been the entire book but it was a good portion). I'm not a Buddhist, but I guess you could maybe say a student of religious philosophy - I have always found it interesting, even when I was very young.

 

*deep breath... much to think about while i was gone... and much time spent thinking, in surprisingly related ways*

< By "happiness" I don't mean trying to achieve, in life, a stable and perpetual state of happiness (like being blissfully drugged up, as was suggested earlier). That's unreasonable, and will--as the above indicates--result only in more unhappiness for me (and others around me). We all want to hold onto the happy moments, the comfort, the warmth, the positive...but none of that lasts. Nor does the discomfort, the cold, or the sad moments. All is in flux. So, maybe what I should have said is that the purpose of life (if there is one) is learning to "roll with it"...to look at what happens always as a passing thing--the light, the dark, all of it--and to learn to remain balanced within the motion of life. And to help others to find their own balance as well, and to know we can't control others to help them--we can only help illuminate a path. Realizing that all things pass, good and bad, and that none of us will have that perfect happiness and stability we crave, is freeing, in a way. Suddenly, you don't have to hold onto things as hard, or fear things that are "bad" or "painful" as much. Because things always change and move and flex, and as long as we do so with them, we'll not be broken by them. And I think it's the beginning of compassion for others and ourselves, to acknowledge we're all afraid of change and pain and loss, and we're all going to experience them. So, the secret to living our lives fully in the world is to admit this, and live with that knowledge, rather than in spite of it. >

fully, maybe. happy, no. knowledge that things are not stable does not bring me joy. acknowledging that i cannot help others does not lessen the fact that i want to. acknowledging that loving and caring about others cannot save them, or me, or make them care for me as much as i care for them, or even act like i matter, does not make me happy. acknowledging that i fear change and loneliness and hurt cannot prevent any of it, nor does it make me feel good about the fact that it occurs.

liz, when you said 'what you said is really how I define "peace"- i can sort of agree with that as a concept, but i just can't seem to feel it. most of the time, the best i can come up with, based on such reflections, is resignation. even as i see the truth of your statement, and especially kai's statements, to me acceptance = giving up. the day i totally give up is the day i die, physically or emotionally. i try not to think of either as an attractive option, with varying degrees of success.

< It's a Zen Buddhism kind of thing actually; from simple statements we make our own interpretations, and in turn we learn about ourselves based on our own conclusions. >

also true. but (honest) self-examination doesn't necessarily bring happiness either. it can lead to a spiral of self-hate, despising one's own perceived weaknesses. yes, it is silly to excuse the faults and inconsideration of others by saying "nobody's perfect," and then beat yourself up for being imperfect also... BUT. perhaps it's even selfish, but if it feels real, isn't it? at least for a (subjective) given value of real?

not a little ray of sunshine, just to beat you to it. sorry i'm such a bummer. it's how i feel, and therefore valid to me. i take my amusement anywhere i can, and seek out and enjoy distraction, because only then do i not think like this. try not to rip me up too badly for it, and i'll try not to speak of it again here.

< Alternatively, the meaning of life is to collect as many toys as possible. I could go with that. >

on a lighter note. oh, yeah. toys are good! especially ones you can hit people with. and if you're creative, that's almost all of them.

 

>>liz, when you said 'what you said is really how I define "peace"- i can sort of agree with that as a concept, but i just can't seem to feel it. most of the time, the best i can come up with, based on such reflections, is resignation.<<

well, just to CMA, though i completely agree with what Kai said, and, indeed, i consider that the definition of peace, however, there are some fundamental differences involved. Kai says that she feels at peace because "from simple statements [she] makes [her] own interpretations, and in turn [she] learns about [her]self based on [her] own conclusions." I feel at peace because the self, my self, is taken out of the equation. it's like i said before about emotions being temporary and stuff - if you are your only boss, and there is no one else to answer to, then in fact all you have to please is yourself, and that's not for me. that's the whole relative subjectivism thing i was talking about. it seems as though that would lead to a lot of feelings of doubt and insecurity. and that's what turns "morals" into a free-for-all; when everyone has their own set, then you get some who don't think it is morally "wrong" to murder, and some don't think it's "wrong" to be adulterous, and so on, based upon "their own interpretations" which led to "their own conclusions" about "right" and "wrong." then you also have the whole issue of, "why should ____ be held criminally or otherwise accountable for something that they personally don't believe is 'wrong'?" and that just leads to chaos.

my beliefs are such that it's not my job, obligation, or worry, to "accept" all that is wrong in life - my own or anyone else?s - i leave that to the higher power. i will never be perfect, and i don't strive to achieve perfection, i simply strive to become as "Christ-like" as possible.

>>even as i see the truth of your statement, and especially kai's statements, to me acceptance = giving up. the day i totally give up is the day i die, physically or emotionally.<<

i understand your point completely. dude, i'm a fighter, and i don't like giving up on anything i don't think, however, that one's personal philosophy should make him/her feel defeated, but rather, empowered. i wish that for you cheryl.

>>i try not to think of either as an attractive option with varying degrees of success.<<

please don't talk like that

 

It's all about how you approach that introspection Cheryl. Imagine it as a big box of pennies. One can either dig through the box searching for all the dirty, grimy, disgusting ones while wallowing in the misery of it all(and start writing poetry with the lights out), or completely ignore the dirty ones and marvel at how flawless and pristine these pennies are(and wonder why everyone else seem oblivious to it), or try to live with the balance of the shiny ones and the not quite so shiny ones and even the dirty ones, maybe try and clean a few of them up. It's all a matter of how your look at that box of pennies. The question isn't whether or not your box of pennies is better or worse than anyone elses, but rather can you find peace with your box of pennies, knowing full well that not all the pennies will be nice ones?

I have my flaws (no no, I do really, it's true!), I know I have a tendency to be overly judgmental of people sometimes, it's a remnant of the superiority complex I developed while working at Pizza Hut(and it was a doozy, lemme tell you. I got rid of it eventually), but when I catch myself at it now I realise what I've been doing, and stop. I don't beat myself up about it, but I do know it's something that still needs some work, so I work on it. I try to be positive about it.

Negativity is the downward spiral. What you know about yourself, it's just information. It's how you deal with that information that matters. I know that there's lots of things not right about me, but I deal them with mostly positively. Sure I have those moments of negativity, it happens, but I decided a long time ago that that wouldn't be my instinctual response, nor my sole response. That's no way to live. (Well it is a way to live, but certainly not a healty one).

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As for the personal moralities thing Liz, I think there are some things that any intelligent and reasonable individuals should(hopefully) be able to agree upon. That it's not right to kill people, or take things that aren't yours, or fool around with someone elses significant other should be a given when folk are sensible and unselfish enough(reasonably unselfish, not wholly, mind you).

The problems arise with those who are too selfish, who have no thoughts but for themselves, basically people who don't give a crap for anything but their own base needs. It's because of people like that that we ever even needed laws in the first place. These are individuals who are unable to function in a society of a big group of people. And, if I may add, I think I've completely lost my topic now so I should probably stop typing... any second now... where's the spell-checker? I don't wanna have to proof read this whoooooooole thing!

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So, yeah, umm... try positivity, uh... some universal moralities, but then also some personal viewpoints as well... and every now and then eat a cookiee. Yep

 

What you know about yourself, it's just information. It's how you deal with that information that matters.

I really really like that sentiment. Thank you.

 

Interesting topic I must say. So here I go throwing in my 2 cents. My opinion of the purpose of life is quite simple, and it is to live. As such here are the ways I try to live my life. 1- Live each day to the fullest, you never know what day will be your last, and I would rather leave this world knowing that I lived. 2- Live to see the bad times, for if you never have the bad times you never know when you are having the good times. 3- Live to better yourself, (now this ties into #2) to better yourself, the good and the bad times provide us with many lessons into ourselves, friends and family. Throughout these trials we are given the great fortune to learn the good and the bad of the things we see in ourselves and others, and given the chance to make use of the best freedom any creature on this world has, the Freedom of Choice. Choices are what ultimately leads us through life, for good or bad they are the obstacles we must overcome, and learn to accept the concequences, for good or bad, of the actions we take resulting of the choices before us.

Soo, while we all make bad choices, the only test in the end I see worth passing, is how we handle the results of the choices we made.

Tater Vader out

 

Soo, while we all make bad choices, the only test in the end I see worth passing, is how we handle the results of the choices we made.

Nicely put.

- Kai

 

*ahem*

"there is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. you seek problems because you need their gifts" (richard bachman, from illusions... a book with some surprisingly profound nuggets of wisdom in it)

no experience is wasted, if you learn something from it. even the bad ones, they just aren't fun, is all.

that's all for now.

 

That's a nice quote. I'm glad you posted it.