PT Question about Clone Army, Sifo-Dyas, and Order 66

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Master Agoraphobia, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    Like i said, you are reading far too deep into something that has no deeper significance.

    So the clones sometimes refer to the chancellor as "my lord". That's all you can deduce from that. As far as the clones being loyal to Palpatine personally, rather than just as head of the republic, i could definitely run with that.
    V-2 likes this.
  2. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    I believe that the clone commanders were meant to memorise the Contingency Orders of the GAR, and were loyal to whomever was Commander-in-Chief: Palpatine took that role just before RotS. I personally don't think it was indoctrinated into their brains; the clones were just bred to obey without question - no matter the seemingly strange nature of the order.
    However, as Arawn pointed out, TCW will probably completely change this, altering it to be very simple or that the clones were brainwashed and the Order was a key that transformed them into something cold and evil. Lucas will probably contradict all the previous EU on the matter.
    As for "My Lord" title used by the commanders when addressing Palpatine, this was actually used interchangeably with "Chancellor"etc, as per some novels (though we don't have to take that into consideration in this forum, I suppose)
  3. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
  4. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Which is why it makes more sense for the clones to not know about it, until the order's given.
  5. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    ^Yeah, I pretty much agree. George is also usually picky about movie stuff being fleshed out in the EU and the story has been 100% non-programmed beyond the clones' innate loyalty to orders.
    ILNP likes this.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Well, they have to know what the order means, so that would imply that at least the clone commanders had to have learned about it at some earlier point. But that point doesn't have to be when they were on Kamino or pre-AOTC.
  7. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I was thinking not knowing ahead of time that the order would be given.
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    You know, for someone who says they don't want to revisit the prequels and would rather forget them, you sure do bring them up a lot.

    Plus, the above cartoon's entire argument is dependent upon the fact that the clone troopers would have had an emotional response to Order 66. The films never indicate this is true as they "obey any order without question." To them, Order 66 would just have been following orders. What reason would they have to experience fear?
    ILNP likes this.
  9. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Besides, the Jedi's ability to use the Force has diminished as of AOTC. With the beginning of the Clone Wars, the dark side clouds everything. They know something is off in the Senate but they can't figure out exactly what is, especially by being distracted by the full blown war. Even when they know that the Dark Side surrounds the Chancellor they can't do much about it without breaking the rules.
  10. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Do any of you seriously think that the clones only obeyed Palpatine because he was the Chancellor?

    Do you think that, if by some miracle, Padme, Bail and the others had somehow succeeded in a Vote of No Confidence and removed Palpatine, that the danger of Order 66 and the clones would be neutralized?

    If you think that Palpatine would ever take the chance that his trump card could be snatched away if he was just voted out of office then you don't really grasp the sheer genius of the Emperor.

    Order 66 and the Revenge of the Sith was a millenium in the coming. There's no way the clones responded to Palpatine just because he was Chancellor.

    If Palpatine had been voted out and was forced out of his office, he would just retreat to the Works and broadcast Order 66 from there.

    There's little chance that another Chancellor or Senator or the Jedi would be able to command the clones to stand down. I'm fairly certain the TCW will show Order 66 to be some kind of brainwashing technique that makes the clones abandon all loyalty to the Jedi and become Palpatine's obedient slaves.
  11. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Padme was not around to do a vote of no confidence for Palpatine. Bail Organa did not seem like the type of fellow to really go out on a limb the way Padme did. I noticed at the end of Attack of the Clones as they look out over the balcony at the star destroyers and the clone troopers boarding them all he did was tap his hand on the ledge.

    I do not feel that Order 66 was really a brainwashing technique most likely a lot of those things were genetically placed in the clones as they were born. This was something I was always a bit concerned about when I saw the film. I never understood why there was no investigation of the Clones by the Jedi Council. If they did do an investigation they did not do a very good one. They were in a war sure but that is not really an excuse to mindlessly lead troops that were a clone of the person that attempted to assassinate Padme Amidala. This is all the more reason to figure out how these Clones operate.
  12. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Fair points.

    As for the Jedi using the Clone Army that came out of nowhere, it's a simple choice of: Use the Clones and have a fighting chance against the Droid Army that killed two hundred Jedi on Geonosis or have a repeat of the Arena Massacre.

    Geonosis proved that Jedi can't stand against an army of battle droids. And the Jedi viewed the Clones in a very positive light, as they were the ones who saved their lives in the Arena.
  13. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Sure, but it's not like Geonosis happened, and then 15 minutes later there was Order 66. There was time after that to look into the question of where the clones came from some more.
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the novels, they do look- Yoda alludes to it in Labyrinth of Evil.
  15. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    I would still want to know where the Clones came from. These clones were made from an Assassin that tried to kill Padme Amidala. It just seems strange that they blindly started leading them without a thorough investigation.
  16. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    It led into a maze of deception. The entire war was a labyrinth of evil. There was something insidious about the whole affair.
  17. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    The persons that have not read the novels would not know that. I still do not see how they were able to look into it and did not find any contingency orders. That is very strange.
  18. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    for all we know, they did- and simply didn't spot the differences. In the EU, Order 65 tells the clones what to do if the Supreme Chancellor has turned traitor- so the existence of a "what to do if the Jedi turn traitor" contingency order, might not have set off alarm bells.
    ILNP likes this.
  19. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Yoda sensed all of the Jedi being killed across the galaxy and then he realized it was the Clones doing it. Perhaps in that moment he realized they were boundlessly moving through the Clone War as well as blindly leading the Clones of a bounty hunter that attempted to assasinate Padme Amidala.. As Palpatine said to Yoda "Your arrogance blinds you."
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 17, 2012
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Which leads to a literal dead end. So the remaining choices are: 1) use the army; 2) reject the army and let the Republic be split in two.
  21. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that just because a certain bounty hunter tried to assassinate one of the Republic's senators that clones would automatically be untrustworthy. We are all creations of our genes and environment; heck, even identical twins don't always behave the same way when raised together so why would one suspect clones raised in an entirely different enviroment?

    Jango was paid for his genetic material and supposedly he was smart, skilled and strong, not because of his allegiances.
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  22. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, this. ^ A bounty hunter isn't necessarily beholden to anyone.
  23. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    If the Jango bit had been the only shady thing then maybe.

    But there are a great many other shady things about the clone army.
    The order was placed ten years ago, before the seps existed.
    The order is said to have been placed at the request of the Senate but the Senate never ok it. Which makes the order at best illegal and at worst treason.
    There are questions marks about who exactly placed the order. A Jedi Master is said to have done it. But the jedi Council never ok any such things, said Jedi master is dead and according to Obi-Wan, was killed before the order was even placed. The template of the clone army also has never heard of this jedi master.
    So strong possibility that the order was placed under a false name.
    Then we have the clone planet being removed from the Jedi archives, something only a Jedi could do.
    Add to that, the clone army template is trying to murder the strongest opponent of the army bill. Said template is also working for the leader of the seps, a former Jedi now turned Sith.

    So to sum up;
    The army was ordered illegally, possibly under a false name. The army template is working for the Sith/seps and is trying to kill the opponent of the army bill.
    Even a moron would be able to smell a rat with all this.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
  24. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Obi-Wan's phrasing is "I was under the impression that he was killed before that" - plenty of room for him to have got the date slightly wrong.
    ILNP likes this.
  25. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Here's the biggest one as far as I'm concerned: Where did the money come from to create this army? The army had to have been astronomically expensive. Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi, and though the Order as an organization appears to have some money available to it, individual members of the Order seem to have taken something of a vow of poverty. So where did SD get the truly huge amount of cash he would have needed to place this order?

    And that's the key. As Woodward and Bernstein famously said in our own world: follow the money. Money always comes from somewhere, and money always leaves a trail. The Kaminoans think the Jedi placed the order anyway, so why wouldn't they share details of the transaction with the people they ostensibly made the deal with? So start asking them questions: How did they get paid? In what form? In one lump sum, or in payments? If it was cash, what denominations, and who delivered it? If it was a bank transfer, which bank? What were the account details? Did someone just land a ship full of gold in your city? If so, what did the ship look like? Who was in the crew? Do you still have any of the gold around? Can we look at it? Can we run some tests on it to see if we can figure out where it came from?

    Which is all a great setup for what I'm sure would be the most riveting piece of EU ever written - Star Wars: Jedi Accountant
    Random Comments likes this.
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